Inf Treaty

[Stuart Galbraith]

Blondie and the The Cars was pretty good. I cant say I was ever a Michael Jackson fan which the US seemed to be obsessed with at the time.

 

But you had the Bangles. My God, I had such a crush on Susannah Hoffs at the time.

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[lastdingo]

Your comparison of music of 80's and 90's is utterly off the mark. I only mentioned the 80's as having had less post-apocalyptic "entertainment" than the post-9/11 era.

[Stuart Galbraith]

No, I dont agree. It was everwhere in the early 80's, where it was The Terminator, Wargames, The mad max trilogy, The Day After, Threads, or music, whether it was Frankie Goes to Hollywood (particularly Two Tribes), Duran Duran (planet earth), Blondie (Atomic, particularly the video), OMD (Enola Gay) Captain Sensible (im glad its all over), Men at work (its a mistake), Pink Floyd (Two suns in the sunset), even The Dubliners (Protect and survive).

 

Alright, this isnt the place for examining post apocalyptic culture. But im convinced it had an effect, not least on consumers. If you are going to die in a nuclear holocaust tomorrow, you tend to not make long term economic plans and decide to live it up.

 

Id be tempted to put this down myself manufacturing evidence to prove the 80's were the best, but you saw exactly the same thing happen in the 1960's and early 1970s from the aftermath of the cuban missile crisis or the Vietnam war.

 

The funny thing about 911, Im almost tempted to say popular culture was predicting it or something like it. it hasnt affected music nearly so much as the last decade of the cold war, though there has been movies that have taken it as inspirtation. And of course Person of Interest, which has taken the aftermath of the war on terror and made perhaps what was one of the more interesting comments on the surveillance society. And of course Jericho.

 

But you will look in vain to see the effect it had on music. I dont think its even affected literature or popular culture as much as we might think.

[Dawes]

Rush had "Manhattan Project" and Blackfoot covered "Morning Dew" (a conversation between the last man and woman on Earth following a nuclear war).

 

OK, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[lastdingo]

Try to count the currently running zombie TV series alone. Add the zombie computer games. Zombie movies. That's just the zombie part!

There are additional post-apocalyptic ones, from Wall-E to I am Legend and yes, another Mad Max (there was nothing in the Mad Max franchise between 1990 and 2015!). Even Marvel got depressive.

 

Now look at the 90's. Where are the zombies and post-apocalyptic themes there?

Have a look, no really, look! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_and_post-apocalyptic_fiction

Even the Terminator was on vacation.

 

Whether the 80's or the naughties were more dark-mooded is besides the main point; the best decade was between the failed coup in Moscow (August 1991) and 9/11 almost exactly a decade later. Crime rates were higher than now in most of the OECD countries and the world had more extreme poverty, but Western society had its best time then.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Top 10 of the Hundred Greatest hits of 1983 had David Bowies 'Lets Dance', which had a suitably post apocalyptic video filmed in Australia. 1984 had even more, with Frankie and Two Tribes, Nena and 99 Red Balloons, Captain Sensible and Glad its all over, Ultravox and Dancing with the tears in my eyes, even McCartney's Pipes of Piece, ostensibly about WW1 was I think talking about something else.

 

Thats just the UK charts. It looks to me, what I felt at the time, that things were going wrong, and the music picked up on it. Particularly after the GLCM deployment I think.

http://www.uk-charts.top-source.info/top-100-1983.shtml

http://www.uk-charts.top-source.info/top-100-1984.shtml

 

Ok, sorry, I studied Sociology many years ago, and this neatly dovetails all my interests.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Try to count the currently running zombie TV series alone. Add the zombie computer games. Zombie movies. That's just the zombie part!

There are additional post-apocalyptic ones, from Wall-E to I am Legend and yes, another Mad Max (there was nothing in the Mad Max franchise between 1990 and 2015!). Even Marvel got depressive.

 

Now look at the 90's. Where are the zombies and post-apocalyptic themes there?

Have a look, no really, look! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_and_post-apocalyptic_fiction

Even the Terminator was on vacation.

 

Whether the 80's or the naughties were more dark-mooded is besides the main point; the best decade was between the failed coup in Moscow (August 1991) and 9/11 almost exactly a decade later. Crime rates were higher than now in most of the OECD countries and the world had more extreme poverty, but Western society had its best time then.

 

Yeah, but Zombies are nothing new, the first one came out in 1968. Personally, Ive rarely seen any hint of it being about post nuclear apocalypse, but its clear Romero was happy to tackle other issues such as Racism or Consumerism.

 

I really dont see the 90's as being a glory period of apocalyptic culture. I dont really remember much of an obsession with it till the latter half when we started getting PMT (Pre Millennial Angst) ably stoked by people like Art Bell or programmes like the X Files. And we had the obsession with Y2K which clearly went nowhere.

[DB]

Zombies give an enemy that is conveniently dehumanised and which adolescent minds can use to play out their mass-murder fantasies.

 

Is it a surprise that they're so popular in the media?

[Dawes]

For the last decade or so, it's been nothing but vampires and zombies from Hollywood. And of course, Navy SEALs trump all other special forces.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Zombies give an enemy that is conveniently dehumanised and which adolescent minds can use to play out their mass-murder fantasies.

 

Is it a surprise that they're so popular in the media?

 

That too. And its frankly astonishing how many weapons seem available to defeat non existent threads. Haynes how has a Zombie defence manual out.

 

Ive seen them as analogues for everything from Socialism and Consumerism. Mark Gatiss did a very good programme about 9 years ago on horror movies, and he interviewed George Romero, and notice one of the series he did was set in a shopping mall, with the undead walking the halls just as did in life. It was Romero implied, a parody of consumerism, with Gatiss pointing out the Zombie was the ultimate consumer.

[GARGEAN]

Zombies give an enemy that is conveniently dehumanised and which adolescent minds can use to play out their mass-murder fantasies.

 

Is it a surprise that they're so popular in the media?

So zombies are new russkies?

[bojan]

Zombies are nobility's fear of the great unwashed masses, just as vampires are masses fear of the nobility.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Zombies give an enemy that is conveniently dehumanised and which adolescent minds can use to play out their mass-murder fantasies.

 

Is it a surprise that they're so popular in the media?

So zombies are new russkies?

 

Now when russkies are back, zombie movie franchises are in trouble

[Tim the Tank Nut]

Well, I'll be...

Something I can agree with Stuart on. Bangles=hot!

Interestingly enough Ms Hoffs was on TV recently and it appears that she has aged remarkable well (to the point of having not aged at all!)

[lastdingo]

Yeah, she's ridiculous

^ that's her at age 59 or so.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

okay, Stuart, Last Dingo and myself are all in agreement.

I am surprised very much by this sudden turn of events. All thanks to a T-n-A band from the Eighties

[JWB]

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS781US781&tbm=isch&q=Susanna+Hoffs&chips=q:susanna+hoffs,g_1:now:uPpGajCSHg0%3D&usg=AI4_-kRD5LBxxMoyA7nqdc_yRFYhWVmmpg&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjv_9KmyLTgAhUIS6wKHQH0DwEQ4lYIMCgE&biw=1920&bih=969&dpr=1

[Panzermann]

Zombies are nobility's fear of the great unwashed masses, just as vampires are masses fear of the nobility.

 

Sometimes. sometimes zombies are the fear of your neighbours turning on you. Though I prefer the romero take of critiquing society with his ghouls (he never called them zombies).

 

But why the fuck are we discussing zombies in a thread discussing the shredding of the INF treaty, which is going to open a new nuclear arms race? And the Bangles? WTF?

 

 

 

Well back to to topic:

 

 

 

NATO chief Stoltenberg bats for expanded INF treaty deal with more members

Jens Stoltenberg has said countries such as China and India could be brought on board to save the key nuclear pact. The INF treaty is headed for a collapse after the US and Russia said they would walk out of the deal.

 

 

 

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg has said he was open to an expanded Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty with more members in order to save the key armaments pact.

 

The INF treaty is on the brink of a collapse after the US said on Friday it was suspending the nuclear pact with a view to withdrawing from it; Moscow followed suit a day later. Washington accuses Moscow of "violating the terms of the treaty," a claim that the Kremlin denies.

 

Stoltenberg told Germany's Funke Media Group that Russia had always complained that countries like China, India, Pakistan and Iran had developed mid-range missiles while it was banned from doing so.

 

"But that's not an excuse for violating a treaty," Stoltenberg said. "On the contrary, it should prompt us to strengthen this treaty and bring in more partners."

 

Both Washington and Moscow have expressed their openness to replacing the suspended Cold War-era pact with a broader treaty that includes more countries, although Moscow voiced skepticism over the chances of achieving such a deal.

 

INF Treaty

 

The 1987 treaty negotiated by US President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev prohibits the US and Russia from possessing, producing or test-flying ground-launched nuclear cruise missiles with a range of 500 to 5,500 kilometers (300 to 3,400 miles).

 

The treaty ended a Cold War-era crisis when the Soviet Union installed nearly 400 nuclear warheads pointed at Western Europe. The US had responded by stationing Pershing and cruise missiles in Europe.

 

Read more: What is the INF nuclear treaty?

 

 

Getting China on board

 

Several experts have suggested that Trump's decision to withdraw from the arms treaty could also be directed at China, which has been rapidly modernizing its military capabilities.

 

US President Donald Trump has vowed that the US would go ahead and develop nuclear weapons unless Russia and China signed on to a fresh agreement.

 

"We really have no choice," Trump said during his State of the Union address on Tuesday. "Perhaps we can negotiate a different agreement, adding China and others, or perhaps we can't — in which case, we will outspend and out-innovate all others by far."

 

China, which is not a signatory to the INF, is not bound by its terms. In 2015, Beijing deployed the Dong-Feng 26 intermediate-range ballistic missile system. The missile has a range of 3,000-4,000 kilometers and is capable of striking most US military bases in the eastern Pacific Ocean.

 

The country also has at least three intercontinental missile systems, one of them capable of striking a target 11,700 kilometers away, according to the Missile Threat website.

News

 

 

Other players

 

India has also been developing an intercontinental ballistic missile system as part of its Agni missile series. The Agni-5 is expected to have a range of 5,000-8,000 kilometers. New Delhi has already deployed a 3,000-5,000 kilometer-range Agni-3 ballistic missile system.

 

Iran also has a diverse missile arsenal — albeit no known nuclear warheads — including medium-range ballistic missiles capable of striking US allies in the Middle East and Europe. Trump pulled out of a 2015 nuclear deal with Tehran, citing among other things its ballistic missile program.

 

Pakistan also has two medium-range ballistic missile systems — Shaheen 2 and Ghauri — in its arsenal

 

European security

 

Peter Beyer, Germany's trans-Atlantic coordinator, said all efforts must be made up to the last minute to salvage the deal and "to persuade Moscow to adhere to it."

 

"But let us remain realistic: if that does not succeed, then America, then NATO must also position itself differently militarily in order to restore security in Europe," Beyer told Germany's Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung newspaper.

 

As it stands, the US and Russia have six months to settle the dispute and salvage the INF treaty; both plan to withdraw completely at that point.

 

Read more: With INF treaty at risk, Germans fear new arms race

 

source and further links: https://www.dw.com/en/nato-chief-stoltenberg-bats-for-expanded-inf-treaty-deal-with-more-members/a-47402106

Edited February 12, 2019 by Panzermann

[Josh]

 

 

Zombies give an enemy that is conveniently dehumanised and which adolescent minds can use to play out their mass-murder fantasies.

 

Is it a surprise that they're so popular in the media?

So zombies are new russkies?

If youre willing to go back to Cold War, I guess. Pretty sure the USSR didnt have a shortage of movies involving Yanqis thought.

[Josh]

As too the more practical part of the thread: Russia has everything to gain by land based missiles and so does China. Neither will ever agree to a similar treaty, unless it limits US sea based missiles which is a non starter. So everything being said is bullshit; the treaty is dead and nothing will replace it.

[Panzermann]

As too the more practical part of the thread: Russia has everything to gain by land based missiles and so does China. Neither will ever agree to a similar treaty, unless it limits US sea based missiles which is a non starter. So everything being said is bullshit; the treaty is dead and nothing will replace it.

The big problem is, the nuclear game has become much more dangerous. More players like bestest Korea or Pakistan or India. More players makes things more volatile. Rockets have become faster as have cruise missiles that can pretty much do the same thing: quickly deliver a payload to cut down on response time. China e.g. could gain more safety for Beijing for example, if the DPRK signs a ban. OTOH, there is Russia on the other side. If tehy have medium range delivery, Beijing and other major cities is still in danger. India and Pakistan seem to be mostly staring at each other, so are less of a concern for the rest of the world me thinks.

 

In a sane world we would all agree to cut back on medium range delivery systems in order to have enough reaction time to false alarms.

 

 

 

e.g. Pakistan is at it: https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/pakistan-conducts-second-nasr-nuclear-capable-ballistic-missile-test-in-a-week/

Edited February 12, 2019 by Panzermann

[lastdingo]

Indian nukes are also a deterrence to the PRC and Pakistani nukes are widely considered "Muslim" nukes - someone might get the idea to span a "Muslim nuke" protective umbrella over other Muslim countries (though not quite Iran).

[JasonJ]

In a hearing at the US Senate Committee on Armed Services on February 12th, Indo-PaCOM and USFK generals sound very positive about the prospect of being able to deploy ground based mobile BMs with intermediate range. 58:10 to 01:01:23

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/hearings/19-02-12-united-states-indo-pacific-command-and-united-states-forces-korea

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oh, well done that man, nice find!

[Nobu]

In a sane world we would all agree to cut back on medium range delivery systems in order to have enough reaction time to false alarms.

 

For better or worse, India, Pakistan, and North Korea would consider inclusion in such an agreement as legal validation of their nuclear weapon state status, and would probably be another domino in the fall of NPT.