Venezuela Getting Hotter

[rmgill]

[JWB]

 

 

 

None of the authors are politicians.

It does not matter - since they are creating ambient media buzz (controlled by Western ruling elite), and media buzz is what is influencing grass-root people.

You do not understand the USA at all.

It is quite stupid from me to claim i understand USA better than locals (even despite of USians perception of USA is quite different depending on their political position, as we see in other threads). All i can do is to tell how it is looking like from Russia.

 

How much control does Russian media elite have over Russian grass roots?

[Roman Alymov]

How much control does Russian media elite have over Russian grass roots?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Russians are in general skeptical, cynical and expect nothing good from officials and all sorts of people of higher standing. This habit is rooted in centuries (as Russian history is history of rebellion), and invention of media only added to that - as media are owned by rich and wealthy, adding class hate to the mix. It is hard to me to measure control, so i can't answer you question with figures - but i think we can use surveys like this as guide (of course keeping in mind they are hardly reliable, unfortunatelly)

​

[JWB]

You claimed Western ruling elite controls grass roots by media buzz. That would be difficult because media is the USA has never been so spread out and ignored. There is so much noise that majority of the population has decided to just ignore media that is controlled by elites. Big media has almost gone bankrupt because population has gone to small media. The internet has broken whatever influence big media ever had.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/22/distrust-social-media-traditional-journalism-fake-news

[Josh]

You claimed Western ruling elite controls grass roots by media buzz. That would be difficult because media is the USA has never been so spread out and ignored. There is so much noise that majority of the population has decided to just ignore media that is controlled by elites. Big media has almost gone bankrupt because population has gone to small media. The internet has broken whatever influence big media ever had.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/22/distrust-social-media-traditional-journalism-fake-news

That would be a huge miss characterization, IMO. What happened is the media fractured into numerous online and on air pieces, and people in general choose the ones that most identify with their pre-existing belief systems (both on the left and the right). Cable news is hardly dead, especially for the older generations, most particularly Fox News. But people didn't stop watching 'news', they just got more choices in outlets and delivery systems. They generally went with the ones that most catered to their views or preferences.

 

It probably does mean that there really isn't an over arching message or direction for US media, outside the common denominator of making money, which usually goes hand in hand with creating sensationalist headlines for both directions of the US political spectrum. You can generally add the word "Tump" to any headline and get twice as many clicks, left or right, because most every one has an intense opinion about him either way.

[JWB]

A huge miss characterization? NYT is losing tens of millions of dollars every year. It's not very much better for the rest of the big city daylies. SF Chron has lost half of its pages and all of the syndicated columns. Cable news has been sliding for over a decade.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/03/why-cable-news-shedding-viewers/348811/

[Nobu]

The Chronicle has been going downhill for years, sadly.

 

In its defense, however, it is going down fighting, as it has credibly maintained its writing standard during its slow slide.

[Ssnake]

That article from The Atlantic is from 2011...

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

He means George Bush.He claimed victory in the cold war in the 1993 Presidential election, which really upset the Russians. Largely because it was true. Nobody likes to learn they lost a war after all.

In 1993, Russians were fighting Civil War and surviving on ruins, too busy to notice Western politicians rhetoric . When daily survival is your concern, political affairs are not among your interests. The first time wide masses started to rethink situation in "Seems like Soviet propaganda was not lying to us about global imperialism" was in late 1990th, during Yugoslavia bombings. Even our office team (McCann-Erickson Moscow), mostly fresh graduates from best universities, with fluent English, majority with experience of living abroad, with top-tier salaries incomparable to ones of average Russian etc, was sort of at the edge of riot - enough to our US bosses, wise people i must say, creating special meeting to calm situation down.

 

 

We moved on, Russia didnt, and thats the tragedy.

Where you moved to?

 

The sunny uplands of peace Churchill always promised. You want to come up here some time, you can see a long way. Instead of re-fighting a lost war again and again and again....

 

 

 

You claimed Western ruling elite controls grass roots by media buzz. That would be difficult because media is the USA has never been so spread out and ignored. There is so much noise that majority of the population has decided to just ignore media that is controlled by elites. Big media has almost gone bankrupt because population has gone to small media. The internet has broken whatever influence big media ever had.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/22/distrust-social-media-traditional-journalism-fake-news

That would be a huge miss characterization, IMO. What happened is the media fractured into numerous online and on air pieces, and people in general choose the ones that most identify with their pre-existing belief systems (both on the left and the right). Cable news is hardly dead, especially for the older generations, most particularly Fox News. But people didn't stop watching 'news', they just got more choices in outlets and delivery systems. They generally went with the ones that most catered to their views or preferences.

 

It probably does mean that there really isn't an over arching message or direction for US media, outside the common denominator of making money, which usually goes hand in hand with creating sensationalist headlines for both directions of the US political spectrum. You can generally add the word "Tump" to any headline and get twice as many clicks, left or right, because most every one has an intense opinion about him either way.

 

There is no one owner of the US media, so there is a widespread number of views, although it is fair to say at the moment they have solidified into two basic perspectives, pro Trump, AntiTrump.

 

Russia used to have a very similar wide range of views, and they had a wide number of media barons. In Putin's early years, he either had the Oligarch owners hauled off on made up taxation charges (or sometimes finally noticed what had been in plain sight for years) and nationalized their media holdings. Or they pointed out to the other owners that a more pro Kremlin message might be healthier. Thats why you can go from Sputnik to RT to most other Russian media sources and see essentially the same story. There is no plurality in views, just a plurality in emphasis.

 

Its worth reflecting on the fate of Kukli, a very popular show in the style of Britains Spitting image, which so annoyed the Kremlin (more specifically Putin which it parodied), that they pressured the company to shut it down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppets_(TV_series)

[JWB]

That article from The Atlantic is from 2011...

It is a snapshot in time. Also:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/five-years-network-ratings-declines-explained-1241524

 

Remember 50 years ago there was Walter Kronkite by himself.

[Adam Peter]

Looks like one of the planners who planned a coup against the drug smuggler president is in US prison now for smuggling drugs. Ahmed Chalabi, who is not.

[BansheeOne]

Quote

Date 25.10.2020

Venezuela: Opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez arrives in Spain

Leopoldo Lopez had been confined in Venezuela for more than six years. It isn't clear how he escaped from the Spanish ambassador's residence in capital city Caracas to join family in Madrid.

Venezuelan opposition politician Leopoldo Lopez arrived in Madrid on Sunday, Spain's foreign ministry said.

It was announced Saturday that Lopez left the Spanish ambassador's residence in Venezuela's capital city Caracas. He had been holed up in the residence for over a year, avoiding house arrest for his role in anti-government protests.

In a statement, the Spanish foreign ministry said Lopez's decision to leave the Spanish embassy in Venezuela was "personal and voluntary."

Lopez, who founded the social-democratic Popular Will Party, in a series of tweets earlier said he had left Venezuela but did not disclose his location.

"Venezuelans, this decision has not been easy, but rest assured that you can count on this servant to fight from anywhere," Lopez said. "We will not rest and we will continue working day and night to achieve the freedom that all Venezuelans deserve."

Lopez was jailed in 2014 for leading violent protests against embattled President Nicolas Maduro and was released to house arrest in 2017.

Lopez backed internationally-recognized interim President Juan Guaido,who assumed the presidency following Maduro's 2018 re-election campaign that was widely considered illegitimate.

In April 2019, Lopez backed Guaido's attempt at a military revolt against Maduro. After the uprising fizzled out, he sought shelter at the Spanish ambassador's residence.

Lopez's wife, Lilian Tintori, fled to Spain that May.

How did Lopez escape?

There are various reports from sources about how Lopez evaded a heavy security presence and fled Venezuela. Two people familiar with the matter said he traveled via Colombia.

In a message directed to Maduro on Twitter, Guaido said his political mentor had gotten out of Venezuela by "evading your repressive apparatus."

Maduro government condemns escape

"The head of the Spanish diplomatic mission in Venezuela served as the main organizer and confessed accomplice of the... escape from Venezuelan territory of the criminal Leopoldo Lopez," President Nicolas Maduro's government said in a statement.

Following Lopez's departure, intelligence agents arrested four Venezuelans who worked with Lopez in Caracas, including two of his bodyguards, according to Ana Leonor Acosta, a local lawyer who said she was contracted to defend the four individuals.

https://www.dw.com/en/venezuela-opposition-leader-leopoldo-lopez-arrives-in-spain/a-55394101

[Ivanhoe]

Well then, good on ya, Espana. (tilde implied)

 

[Ssnake]

Alt+0241 on the NumPad.

[BansheeOne]

Quote

Venezuela votes in parliamentary elections amid calls for boycott

Issued on: 06/12/2020 - 07:11

Text by: NEWS WIRES

Polling places in Venezuela open Sunday to elect members of the National Assembly in a vote championed by President Nicolás Maduro but rejected as a fraud by the nation's most influential opposition politicians.

Maduro seeks to pack the assembly with members of his United Socialist Party of Venezuela, capturing the last government institution out of his reach. Critics say doing so will smother the last remnants of democracy in Venezuela.

An opposition coalition led by U.S.-backed politician Juan Guaidó is boycotting the vote.

The Supreme Court — loyal to Maduro — this year appointed a new elections commission, including three members who have been sanctioned by the U.S. and Canada, without participation of the opposition-led congress, as the law requires. The court also took over three leading opposition parties, appointing new leaders the opposition accuses of conspiring to support Maduro.

Guaidó's opposition movement is holding a referendum over several days after the election. It will ask Venezuelans whether Venezuelans want to end Maduro's rule and hold new presidential elections.

 

It's unclear whether either side's vote will draw the masses as neither Maduro nor Guaidó are popular among Venezuelans as the nation's economic and political crisis deepens despite its vast oil reserves.

The South American nation is caught in a deepening political and economic crisis, despite holding the world's largest oil reserves.

More than 5 million people have fled the country in recent years, the world’s largest migration after war-torn Syria. The International Monetary Fund projects a 25% decline this year in Venezuela’s GDP, while hyperinflation diminishes the value of its currency, the bolivar.

[...]

https://www.france24.com/en/americas/20201206-voting-opens-in-venezuela-s-parliamentary-elections-amid-calls-for-boycott

[Rick]

On 5/12/2020 at 4:14 PM, Roman Alymov said:

Russians are in general skeptical, cynical and expect nothing good from officials and all sorts of people of higher standing. This habit is rooted in centuries (as Russian history is history of rebellion), and invention of media only added to that - as media are owned by rich and wealthy, adding class hate to the mix. It is hard to me to measure control, so i can't answer you question with figures - but i think we can use surveys like this as guide (of course keeping in mind they are hardly reliable, unfortunatelly)

​

"...as Russian history is history of rebellion..." Could you expand on this. I admit I know nothing of Russian history but from what I know -- or think I know -- Russian history is one of the national (federal in U.S. terms) government trampling the common folks. Is that true?

 

[Roman Alymov]

22 hours ago, Rick said:

"...as Russian history is history of rebellion..." Could you expand on this. I admit I know nothing of Russian history but from what I know -- or think I know -- Russian history is one of the national (federal in U.S. terms) government trampling the common folks. Is that true?

 

It is true, but only small part of the story. Of course central Gov from the moment of its creation after  centuries of feudal divide was “trampling the common folks” – but, unfortunately :

1)There was very little they could actually extract from “common folks” (peasants on the ground and urban population) due to general poverty of population barely surviving on very bad forest-type soils of Central and Northern Russia, where one unit of grain sown was delivering only 2-3 units of harvest grain. De-facto Central Russia, after Mongols wiped out South Russia (the most productive lands of Kiev Rus) was one massive refugee camp for survivors of Mongol invasions

2)As result, central Gov was not able to support big administrative, legal, fiscal and law reinforcement apparatus – so influence of central (and any other) Gov was very limited

3)Inability to support regular army resulted in constant attacks from nomads from “Wild field” and Crimea – reaching deep inside Central Russia, sometimes even north from Moscow – with villages and cities burned, population killed or taken as slaves for sale to Turkey and Europe. It was not adding to Gov ability to collect any significant force to do something internally and externally, and to repopulate good lands of South Russia. Central Gov control was limited by Oka river ~100km south from Moscow, lands south from it were sort of “frontier”  and every peasant family who took the risk of resettling to this (more productive) lands were risking being killed or taken as slaves by nomads.

 Only hundreds-year long process of reconquering good lands by painstaking process of constructing fortified lines step by step down south allowed to collect resources needed.

 In short, imagine American frontier but with Europeans having no technological and numerical superiority over Indian tribes  -and, as result, frontier moving from coast to coast not in decades, but for centuries – sometimes even moving back. This analogy could give you some (oversimplified, of course) idea of Russian history, when central Gov was not only weak but sometimes not existent at all, Tsars elected into power and so on.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Roman Alymov

[Rick]

Thank you Roman for the new -- to me -- information. This step by step process of fortified lines, did the same thing happen when Russia expanded eastward?

[Yama]

On 12/6/2020 at 12:38 PM, Rick said:

"...as Russian history is history of rebellion..." Could you expand on this. I admit I know nothing of Russian history but from what I know -- or think I know -- Russian history is one of the national (federal in U.S. terms) government trampling the common folks. Is that true?

For vast majority of its history, Russia has been ruled as an Empire rather than federation or nation state (which it has basically never been). So being under 'Tsars yoke' meant vastly different things depending on where you lived. Most often it meant being a serf, in some places you were a burgher living little different than your German counterpart, other places you lived in a self-governing democratic community and only had to answer to calls of war, or you might have been a tribal huntsman who was barely aware there was some Great Chief somewhere far where the Sun goes down.

Cossacks were originally Russians and Ukrainans (and others) who got fed up with serfdom and raids and adopted more or less Tatar way of life.

[Simon Tan]

In many cases you were a nimiets.

[DB]

Assume that means "surplus to requirements", more or less.

Not a situation unique to Russia, I feel. Douglas Adams pictured it as being those who were allocated to the "B Ark".

[Stargrunt6]

Venezuela prison is a state within a state.

https://reason.com/video/2020/12/10/the-inmates-are-running-venezuelas-prisons-theyve-created-autonomous-micro-dictatorships/

[BansheeOne]

Wouldn't that be a prison inside a prison? 

[Ivanhoe]

3 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Wouldn't that be a prison inside a prison? 

I think you mean Workers' Paradise inside a Worker's Paradise.

 

[Nobu]

California’s Folsom State Prison comes to mind as well.