France, Unrest...what's Going On?

[rmgill]

So the Media has been tacit in their coverage of this for what I've seen. Some reports I see indicate folks on the left and right united against the government in this particular phase of unrest. What's going on?

[Harold Jones]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/world/europe/france-yellow-vest-protests.html

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/04/europe/france-yellow-vest-protests-intl/index.html

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/03/672862353/who-are-frances-yellow-vest-protesters-and-what-do-they-want

 

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/3/18123906/france-protest-macron-paris-riots-yellow-vest-arc

[Panzermann]

So the Media has been tacit in their coverage of this for what I've seen. Some reports I see indicate folks on the left and right united against the government in this particular phase of unrest. What's going on?

 

In short the french middle class is angry that another tax is raised to milk them more. The petrol tax raise was just the last drop, the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Skywalkre]

 

So the Media has been tacit in their coverage of this for what I've seen. Some reports I see indicate folks on the left and right united against the government in this particular phase of unrest. What's going on?

 

In short the french middle class is angry that another tax is raised to milk them more. The petrol tax raise was just the last drop, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Reading those links Harold provided it sounds like the same issues hitting many (disappearing) middle class across the Western world and the French are simply doing the French thing in response - rioting.

[Ssnake]

"France being France" definitely is an element, but the police complained that it wasn't orchestarted outrage like usual which made controlling the mob so much harder.

 

[Burncycle360]

Well, they literally taxed some people over 100% a while back under Hollande. So, naturally many left and took their money with them.

Still gotta pay for the social programs somehow though, so what else can you do but squeeze what's left.

It's interesting that a big chunk of people who complain about unsustainable practices re: fossil fuels and the environment don't see the parallels with unsustainable economic practices in a society and instead flock to it like a moth to flame. Free stuff isn't cheap you know!

Edited December 4, 2018 by Burncycle360

[Simon Tan]

Revolution is European approved and supported political activity. US also.

[Jeff]

 

So the Media has been tacit in their coverage of this for what I've seen. Some reports I see indicate folks on the left and right united against the government in this particular phase of unrest. What's going on?

 

In short the french middle class is angry that another tax is raised to milk them more. The petrol tax raise was just the last drop, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

 

It was to stop climate change.

 

Why do they hate the planet?

[Simon Tan]

Quick...mobilize the counter demonstrators. And bring more cameras.

[Panzermann]

 

 

So the Media has been tacit in their coverage of this for what I've seen. Some reports I see indicate folks on the left and right united against the government in this particular phase of unrest. What's going on?

In short the french middle class is angry that another tax is raised to milk them more. The petrol tax raise was just the last drop, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Reading those links Harold provided it sounds like the same issues hitting many (disappearing) middle class across the Western world and the French are simply doing the French thing in response - rioting.

 

 

Yup. someone has to pay for upkeep. Pay the street sweepers, keep the lights on, social welfare, defense etc etc.. But the countries of the world are in a downward spiral, race to the bottom for lower taxes for the very very rich and those most often use tax havens, loopholes and whatnot to not pay taxers. Or even get more back than they paid. So the state is forced to get its money from someone else.

 

 

It is not a proper french demo if not at lest half a dozen tires are burning. The French are much louder than others in articulating their dissatisfaction. Each year the french have bastille day and quite a lot march through the streets of every city and town, carrying old farming implements to remind those in power what happened last time they overstretched it. And sing this song:

 

 

 

---

 

Well, they literally taxed some people over 100% a while back under Hollande. So, naturally many left and took their money with them.

 

Still gotta pay for the social programs somehow though, so what else can you do but squeeze what's left.

 

It's interesting that a big chunk of people who complain about unsustainable practices re: fossil fuels and the environment don't see the parallels with unsustainable economic practices in a society and instead flock to it like a moth to flame. Free stuff isn't cheap you know!

 

Everybody loves free stuff , but of course Cockaigne does not exist.

 

An economy guided by unlimited growth and greed is not sustainable either, but it is sold to us as TINA.

 

 

---

 

 

"France being France" definitely is an element, but the police complained that it wasn't orchestarted outrage like usual which made controlling the mob so much harder.

 

 

Because it is not the usual suspects demonstrating (farmers, unionized workers, leftie students...), but the middle class that normally do not do this and are not formally organized. It is not centrally organized, but rather loosely via modern communication (social media, email etc) as far as I can see. But I would still call it french deonstrations and not rioting. The riots of 1967 were bigger I think.

 

 

 

€dith says:

Macron signalises to have given in on the petrol taxes at the moment and wants to talk and stuff. Or in other words wants to delay and hopes the protests to fade out after this first wave.

 

Fuel tax rises which have led to weeks of violent protests in France have now been postponed for six months.

The move was announced in a televised address by PM Edouard Philippe, who said anyone would have "to be deaf or blind" not to hear or see the anger.

The protests have hit major cities, causing damage and disruption over the past three weekends.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46437904

Edited December 5, 2018 by Panzermann

[Panzermann]

 

 

So the Media has been tacit in their coverage of this for what I've seen. Some reports I see indicate folks on the left and right united against the government in this particular phase of unrest. What's going on?

 

In short the french middle class is angry that another tax is raised to milk them more. The petrol tax raise was just the last drop, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

 

It was to stop climate change.

 

Why do they hate the planet?

 

 

The BBc put exactly this in an article: France protests: Will the environment be the true victim of the fuel-tax riots?

[toysoldier]

 

 

 

So the Media has been tacit in their coverage of this for what I've seen. Some reports I see indicate folks on the left and right united against the government in this particular phase of unrest. What's going on?

 

In short the french middle class is angry that another tax is raised to milk them more. The petrol tax raise was just the last drop, the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

 

It was to stop climate change.

 

Why do they hate the planet?

 

 

The BBc put exactly this in an article: France protests: Will the environment be the true victim of the fuel-tax riots?

 

Oh the spinning... my head... so dizzy

[BansheeOne]

Because it is not the usual suspects demonstrating (farmers, unionized workers, leftie students...), but the middle class that normally do not do this and are not formally organized. It is not centrally organized, but rather loosely via modern communication (social media, email etc) as far as I can see. But I would still call it french deonstrations and not rioting. The riots of 1967 were bigger I think.

 

They were bigger, however observers have suggested there is a new quality not just due to the self-organization and politically amorphous make-up of protesters (while it started out with pissed-off regular Pierres, by now it seems both left- and right-wing radicals as well as the ever-dependable youth of the banlieus have joined in for their own purposes, or just general shit-stirring and breaking things), but things like defacing the Arc de Triomph, demolishing statues, etc; though I'm not sure that's helping their cause(s) with onlookers of varying sympathy.

 

This is of course a specific French expression of the general unrest throughout the Western world not necessarily attributable to a political camp; the German protests nominally against the Stuttgart 21 railway station project in 2010, but indicating general dissatisfaction by Angry Citizens with the way things are being done by governments, spring to mind. Naturally much less unruly, but you still had police watercannoning middle-aged vaguely greenish-conservative citizens. Other countries have also seen protests against high living cost - Israel in 2011, Bulgaria only last month; or, looking outside the West, Iran last year, and of course the Arab Spring pretty much started that way in Tunisia.

 

It is funny though to see left-wing press pointedly explaining the causes in France by depicting how even celebrations among farmers and craftmen used to be held with oysters and champagne, but now chips and beer are the order of business - the horror for Frenchmen! - and how protesters are having 20-Euro croques and small beers for 7.50 in between rioting with a pickaxe in one hand and a Go Pro on a selfie stick in the other. It seems a fuel tax aimed at Saving the Planet is not considered a worthy target by journalists who else tend to be sympathetic with every expression of French civil disobedience.

 

Even more ironically, the same media have earlier been smugly pointing out Macron's low approval rates and the popular ire he has drawn for his policy of deregulation and tackling economic impediments like the high French worker protection rights. Of course at the same time, from what I see on the net to American right-wingers he's a bloody tree-hugging socialist for raising the fuel tax. Guy just can't please anybody it seems.

Edited December 5, 2018 by BansheeOne

[Ssnake]

Plus, they voted him in for change with a pretty substantial majority. Now that they get the change they voted for, it's a riot.

[Ssnake]

 

 

Ils sont fous, ces gaulois!

 

[Martin M]

snip:

" This is of course a specific French expression of the general unrest throughout the Western world not necessarily attributable to a political camp; the German protests nominally against the Stuttgart 21 railway station project in 2010, but indicating general dissatisfaction by Angry Citizens™ with the way things are being done by government .... "

 

 

 

without Greens and Affiliates there would have been no protest, and no Angry Citizens™ , except for a handfull of Don Quijote types.

 

Greens and Affiliates will be among the first embracing the new complex when it is done.

[Panzermann]

It is funny though to see left-wing press pointedly explaining the causes in France by depicting how even celebrations among farmers and craftmen used to be held with oysters and champagne, but now chips and beer are the order of business - the horror for Frenchmen! - and how protesters are having 20-Euro croques and small beers for 7.50 in between rioting with a pickaxe in one hand and a Go Pro on a selfie stick in the other. It seems a fuel tax aimed at Saving the Planet™ is not considered a worthy aim by journalists who else tend to be sympathetic with every expression of French civil disobedience.

 

 

Of course the something-with-media types living in Paris, London, Rome, Berlin etc. do not understand that in small towns and villages you are dependent on a car to get to work. Also their editors-in-chief are telling them what to write. As told by the owners, who of course have interest in Macron's reforms.

 

For the notionally left leaning press, well, the protests originated with white middle class.

 

---

Plus, they voted him in for change with a pretty substantial majority. Now that they get the change they voted for, it's a riot.

 

The election result was in the second round of the presidential election, because his name is not Le Pen.

 

the results of the first round were:

 

Macron (EM) 24,0 %

Le Pen (FN) 21,3 %

Fillon (LR) 20,0 %

Mélenchon (FI) 19,6 %

---------------------

Hamon (PS) 6,4 %

Dupont-Aignan (DLF)4,7 %

other 4,0 %

 

from https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/Elections/Les-resultats/Presidentielles/elecresult__presidentielle-2017/(path)/presidentielle-2017//FE.html

all close together in the top group. With a light shift in votes it could have been Melenchon or Fillon just as well in the second roud against Le Pen. Which really is a problem in current France, because since the eighties it has always been a Le Pen against whover else got enough for the other place in the second votimg and many vote out of the necessitiy for the not-LePen to not have a Le Pen as president. Be it father or daughter. That is where Macron's 66% came from. So really, there never was a wide base in the population for Macron in the first place.

 

 

---

snip:

" This is of course a specific French expression of the general unrest throughout the Western world not necessarily attributable to a political camp; the German protests nominally against the Stuttgart 21 railway station project in 2010, but indicating general dissatisfaction by Angry Citizens™ with the way things are being done by government .... "

 

 

 

without Greens and Affiliates there would have been no protest, and no Angry Citizens™ , except for a handfull of Don Quijote types.

 

Greens and Affiliates will be among the first embracing the new complex when it is done.

 

No, not anymore. The established parties have managed to make their own voter base angry. e.g the Stuttgart 21 protests are across party lines and rooted in the conservative good citizens of Stuttgart. Or for example in the neighbouring Bavaria the CSU cannot unite the conservative voters on them any more and has to share the base with free voters and AfD.

 

Or look at the continuing erosion of the SPD in Germany or the shrinking into meaninglessness of the French Parti Socialiste (sp?). Hence Macron opening his own shop for his election campaign to get away from the sinking ship PS.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Panzermann

[Ssnake]

 

Plus, they voted him in for change with a pretty substantial majority. Now that they get the change they voted for, it's a riot.

 

The election result was in the second round of the presidential election, because his name is not Le Pen.

 

Then how come that a month later En Marche won 66% of the seats in parliament?

If he really had been the random "not Le Pen" candidate the voters could easily have gone for the traditional parties to reign him in.

 

No - Macron had popular support and legitimacy to deliver fundamental changes.

[Martin M]

from Wiki :

 

" Das Aktionsbündnis gegen Stuttgart 21 wurde am 13. April 2007 gegründet. Dazu gehörten zunächst: die Bürgerinitiative Leben in Stuttgart (gegründet von Gangolf Stocker, u. a.), der Bund für Umwelt und Naturschutz Deutschland (BUND), der Kreisverband Stuttgart von Bündnis 90/Die Grünen, der Fahrgastverband Pro Bahn Regionalverband Stuttgart, der Verkehrsclub Deutschland Baden-Württemberg (VCD) und das Architekturforum Baden-Württemberg. Später stießen dazu: das parteifreie Bündnis Stuttgart Ökologisch Sozial (SÖS), Die Linke Baden-Württemberg, die Parkschützer, die Gewerkschafter gegen S21, die ArchitektInnen für K21, die Schutzgemeinschaft Filder e. V. und die SPD-Mitglieder gegen Stuttgart 21^{[9] "}

 

 

from Wiki:

 

^{" 79 % der Teilnehmer hatte bereits vor Beginn der Demonstrationen gegen Stuttgart 21 Erfahrungen mit Protesten gemacht, 46 % hatte allerdings in den vergangenen 5 Jahren an keiner Demonstration teilgenommen.[20] "}

[Ivanhoe]

Because it is not the usual suspects demonstrating (farmers, unionized workers, leftie students...), but the middle class that normally do not do this and are not formally organized. It is not centrally organized, but rather loosely via modern communication (social media, email etc) as far as I can see. But I would still call it french deonstrations and not rioting. The riots of 1967 were bigger I think.

Are the non-union working class types involved? Along with small business, they are the ones most commonly clobbered by fuel taxes.

[Panzermann]

 

Because it is not the usual suspects demonstrating (farmers, unionized workers, leftie students...), but the middle class that normally do not do this and are not formally organized. It is not centrally organized, but rather loosely via modern communication (social media, email etc) as far as I can see. But I would still call it french deonstrations and not rioting. The riots of 1967 were bigger I think.

Are the non-union working class types involved? Along with small business, they are the ones most commonly clobbered by fuel taxes.

 

 

AFAIK yes. The unions are miffed that they have not been asked first of course. How dare anybody protest but them.

[Panzermann]

from Wiki :

 

" Das Aktionsbündnis gegen Stuttgart 21 wurde am 13. April 2007 gegründet. Dazu gehörten zunächst: die Bürgerinitiative Leben in Stuttgart (gegründet von Gangolf Stocker, u. a.), der Bund für Umwelt und Naturschutz Deutschland (BUND), der Kreisverband Stuttgart von Bündnis 90/Die Grünen, der Fahrgastverband Pro Bahn Regionalverband Stuttgart, der Verkehrsclub Deutschland Baden-Württemberg (VCD) und das Architekturforum Baden-Württemberg. Später stießen dazu: das parteifreie Bündnis Stuttgart Ökologisch Sozial (SÖS), Die Linke Baden-Württemberg, die Parkschützer, die Gewerkschafter gegen S21, die ArchitektInnen für K21, die Schutzgemeinschaft Filder e. V. und die SPD-Mitglieder gegen Stuttgart 21^{[9] "}

 

 

from Wiki:

 

^{" 79 % der Teilnehmer hatte bereits vor Beginn der Demonstrationen gegen Stuttgart 21 Erfahrungen mit Protesten gemacht, 46 % hatte allerdings in den vergangenen 5 Jahren an keiner Demonstration teilgenommen.[20] "}

 

 

Ah okay. I stand corrected.

[Panzermann]

buzzfeed blames it on Facebook:

The "Yellow Jackets" Riots In France Are What Happens When Facebook Gets Involved With Local News

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/france-paris-yellow-jackets-facebook

 

 

Well, Facebook connects people.

[Ivanhoe]

Well, Facebook connects people.

 

Particularly, angry people wearing hoodies and masks.

[rmgill]

Macron has cancelled the tax hikes reportedly.

 

What are the chances of this turning into a putch?