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2020 Demolition Derby


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gas car production market is saturated? Seriously?

There are plenty of people in the market for an affordable new car.

It just has to be affordable and that is hard to do when the car is full of technology designed to deliver every last ounce of economy and safety cost be damned.

Electric vehicles have been "coming soon" for 80 years. The existing power grid won't support one fourth of the current gas car count converted over to electric and team "D" is damn sure that no no energy production facilities are going to be built (excepting crazy expensive solar, of course)

Every other car company that sells in the US deals with the same gas and safety standards. Ford has already had the same issues. Apparently foreign companies just do it better?

 

Note this article is from March. Far before the Dems took the house, which is generally what you attribute all economic downturn to:

 

http://www.autonews.com/article/20180301/RETAIL01/180309761/gm-sales-down-0us-february-sedans

 

The automaker on Thursday reported sales of 220,905 vehicles in February, a 6.9 percent decline from a year ago. Crossover sales were up 6.8 percent, while cars declined 15 percent, and trucks, including full-size SUVs and vans, dropped 12 percent.

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Just a reminder, a lot of those foreign cars are made in the US, but for the most part in plants that have declined UAW representation located in what are called right to work states. This means they don't pay union wages and probably more importantly aren't constrained by union rules.

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The whole "not going to make cars" thing is fucking stupid. Fuel isn't going to stay cheap forever and then smaller cars will come back into vogue.

Further, government interference in car manufacturing with regards to fuel and crash standards have made cars indistinguishable which opens the door for other, cheaper makes and models to thrive.

Low quality recycled metal and lightweight structures to improve economy lower the quality of the car as well. People think that SUV's and trucks are built better but they aren't

I'm in full agreement. I don't understand why Americans seem hell bent on wasting as much money as they do on vehicles (to be fair, in my lifetime, Americans have always been pretty bad regarding their own monetary habits).

 

But... at the end of the day GM is simply reacting to what consumers want no matter how foolish it may be. That's not something to criticize them for if sticking with what consumers 'should be doing' could potentially set them up for disaster like back in '09 (some of what I've read about this recent move is critical because it highlights leadership that has learned nothing and is still too slow, putting the company at risk yet again).

 

If Trump is going to criticize them for anything it should be at how slow they were to make these changes, not that they're being made in the first place.

 

 

I see plenty of cars on the road, they just don't have badges from the Big 3.

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Every other car company that sells in the US deals with the same gas and safety standards. Ford has already had the same issues. Apparently foreign companies just do it better?

Yeah, they apparently do. Kia just contacted a friend after looking at paperwork to see that he had a tow after getting dealer service and then another tow after that dealer service. He'd argued with the dealer about some 'warranty work' that cost him $800. Kia contacted HIM and offered to cover almost all of that cost just out of the blue. Needless to say he practically fell out of his chair and is pleased. It sounds like Kia needs to send a Narn Bat Squad after the dealer ship because he had problems crop up after service there that they had trouble getting right (including the wrong type of oil after an oil change). But that's the Dealer...not the MFGR.

 

I can't imagine GM doing that at this point. Kia has expanded their West Georgia Plant twice.

Edited by rmgill
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The Koreans have been very focused on improving quality for years. My number one concern when I purchase an automobile is reliability. I switched from Mazda to Hyundai a decade back and we've bought four different Hyundais since 2004. Never had a problem with any of them, except one dead battery that the dealer replaced 15 minutes after I arrived at no cost (that 5-year warranty is nice).

 

My parents had a string of Fords over the last fifteen years, but finally switched to Hyundai due to too many problems with the Ford cars and the dealerships. They are just kicking themselves that they waited so long.

 

--

Soren

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The first car I purchased was an '86 Hyundai Excel, my brother bought another one a few months later. Mine never had a problem, my brother's never didn't have a problem. I understand that isn't uncommon with the early Hyundai cars, inconsistency. Since then I've owned a Jeep Cherokee (loved it), Ford Explorer (hated it) and a Dodge Ram 1500 (loved it).

 

Last year I had to replace the Dodge, due entirely to my negligence in maintenance. After some research I went with a Hyundai Santa Fe Sport, excellent reviews and the 10 yr warranty were the clincher. None of the US crossovers I tested were even close. Only problem was I have a car payment again after 7+ yrs without one. I tend to keep cars a long time; 5 yrs for the Excel, 7 yrs for the Cherokee, 8 yrs for the Explorer and 12 years for the Ram. So the reliability and long warranty are important to me.

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The first car I purchased was an '86 Hyundai Excel, my brother bought another one a few months later. Mine never had a problem, my brother's never didn't have a problem. I understand that isn't uncommon with the early Hyundai cars, inconsistency. Since then I've owned a Jeep Cherokee (loved it), Ford Explorer (hated it) and a Dodge Ram 1500 (loved it).

 

Last year I had to replace the Dodge, due entirely to my negligence in maintenance. After some research I went with a Hyundai Santa Fe Sport, excellent reviews and the 10 yr warranty were the clincher. None of the US crossovers I tested were even close. Only problem was I have a car payment again after 7+ yrs without one. I tend to keep cars a long time; 5 yrs for the Excel, 7 yrs for the Cherokee, 8 yrs for the Explorer and 12 years for the Ram. So the reliability and long warranty are important to me.

Bolden part; 20 years for my Mustang, 26 years for my F150 work truck, and 66 years for my favorite, my 8N tractor :wub:

Sold my '88 still running Accord this year. How is this done? The owner's manual and I are good friends! I also keep $1,000 back for each vehicle just in case!

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I got nearly 500k out of my '97 Escort (with an engine change), and my '08 Escape is humming along. I bought the Escape in May at 174,somethingK miles, and am up over 204K now. Yes, I drive my cars to death, it's a family tradition, but PAID FOR is such a lovely phrase... ^_^

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PLEASE...

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/laurettabrown/2018/11/28/john-kerry-not-ruling-out-a-2020-presidential-bid-n2536672?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=&bcid=dae3728ce77132bc6f7e97e4d4477929&recip=26229299

John Kerry Not Ruling Out a 2020 Presidential Bid

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If foreign owned companies can make a good car then so can US companies. There's no excuse for the attitudes that domestic manufacturers have. I deal with them. I know.

Ford recently told us we would have to pay a subscription fee to sell Ford parts. We didn't and don't. Bad ownership and bad management are rife at Ford.

Now GM just got handed how many tax dollars a few years back? So they can kiss off with their whining.

I've dealt with a Ford Engineer from Detroit. He says that Ford can make a car that would last and be better than anything on the market. They have that ability but the existing cost of doing business makes it prohibitive to do. I bet the engineers at each manufacturer think the same thing and they all hate the accounting dept.

Our delivery cars are Ford Focus SE's. Other than the transmission they are amazingly good cars. Ford sells a ton of them even though everyone knows the trans is clunky as hell. Imagine how many they could sell if it had a good automatic transmission in it. Why does it have a crap trans? Because it is good for a tiny bit more fuel economy. Properly operated our cars get 35mpg in the winter and 37 in the summer.

The President is fully aware of the games that domestic manufacturers have been playing and they're just unhappy to be called out on it. "How dare you accuse me!". If you look at how many GM products are already made in China it is astonishing.

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The whole "not going to make cars" thing is fucking stupid. Fuel isn't going to stay cheap forever and then smaller cars will come back into vogue.

Further, government interference in car manufacturing with regards to fuel and crash standards have made cars indistinguishable which opens the door for other, cheaper makes and models to thrive.

Low quality recycled metal and lightweight structures to improve economy lower the quality of the car as well. People think that SUV's and trucks are built better but they aren't

I'm in full agreement. I don't understand why Americans seem hell bent on wasting as much money as they do on vehicles (to be fair, in my lifetime, Americans have always been pretty bad regarding their own monetary habits).

 

But... at the end of the day GM is simply reacting to what consumers want no matter how foolish it may be. That's not something to criticize them for if sticking with what consumers 'should be doing' could potentially set them up for disaster like back in '09 (some of what I've read about this recent move is critical because it highlights leadership that has learned nothing and is still too slow, putting the company at risk yet again).

 

If Trump is going to criticize them for anything it should be at how slow they were to make these changes, not that they're being made in the first place.

 

 

I see plenty of cars on the road, they just don't have badges from the Big 3.

 

You're right - the top selling cars are from overseas. However, sales for those cars have been dropping and fairly heavily at that. Check out this article which covers the top 20 selling vehicles from 2017. Cars are in the minority and only two of them managed an increase in sales compared to the year before (but measly increases of 1-2%) whereas every other car had drops with some in the double digit %s. Meanwhile, all trucks and SUVs on that list minus one featured significant increases in sales (many in the double digits). To highlight how many more trucks are being sold than cars - all the cars in that top 20 list combined only sold ~2.5x the number of vehicles as the top selling truck (the F-series). This website claims to have figures from this year and the trend seems to be the same (the top-selling Camry from that 2017 list is down double digits so far this year while the F-series is up still).

 

The commentary that Americans want trucks and SUVs seems fairly solid. So why are some here and POTUS criticizing businesses for making shifts that the consumers want? (Though, again, I think it's pretty stupid on the consumer's part to be wanting what they want.)

 

Many of the points Tim the Tank Nut brought up seem to be fairly smart business moves. The Focus is being built still in Europe (where it was selling more than in the US) and in China (where it was trending to surpass US sales, which were slumping). Ford apparently saved quit a bit of money and ended up not having to build a plant they don't need in the process.

 

Sure, in theory they could have built a better vehicle than what's being imported. That would have likely required a massive redesign and marketing campaign all to try and capture a market that's shrinking. Why would they bother with that?

 

And to tie this all in on what I first commented on... why is Trump even talking about it? This doesn't seem to be some deep, philosophical point about business strategy, regulations, etc. It seems he's upset over the possible bad publicity he could get from something he didn't induce and doesn't necessarily have a lot of control over. Why jump into a hole that wasn't for him?

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[...] a Narn Bat Squad [...]

That's a phrase I haven't heard in a long time... a long time...

 

Separates the men from the pouchlings. ;-)

Edited by rmgill
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People want trucks and SUV's today, maybe tomorrow too. You can't change the direction of the industry overnight and cars will come back into vogue soon enough.

Ford doesn't have to redesign the Focus, just fix the damn transmission from a self shifting manual to a true automatic or a true manual.

Trump's beef with GM is simple, the gov't paid for you to be here, dance with the person that brought you to the dance.

I am a simple (and simple-minded) person and it's pretty clear to me.

 

It's not that long ago that one of the Ford family was on about taking Ford green and making bikes or some such. Build better cars (and trucks) and the rest of the problems will go away. The difference between a good part and a crap part is often less than 1% cost per unit. What Ford spends in recalls would pay for it all, but I guess there is a tax break for recalls?

 

I have in my household about 8 Ford and Lincoln products and they are all fantastic pieces of machinery. My 98 Mark VIII LSC is nicer than anything you can buy today. I'm not anti Ford at all. I am anti stupid.

 

Take the current Mustang with the Eco-Boost engine. Ditch the rough ride and sweeten the interior a bit. Add an aero nose and reverse the angle of the back end. Now you have the 2020 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. Easy money, easy sell. The people that saw Motor Trends Car of the Year in 1987 are old enough and well off enough to go buy the car they couldn't buy in college.

Take a Ford Fusion Sport and switch it to two door and clean up the AWD so the bias is to the rear. Redo the front and rear bumper covers and you've got the new 2021 Fairlane Thunderbolt.

If you want to go nuts take the new Mustang convertible and make it super plush, Shorten the rear end by recessing the lights deeper into the truck and redo the front fenders taller with an open grill and you have the Lincoln Mk II revisited.

None of this is real money and their all niche cars that would sell. It brings awareness to the product line in the same manner that the GT40 and Shelby products do

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Jettisoning car production to focus on SUVs, trucks, and muscle cars actually makes both Ford and GM much more attractive from a merger and acquisition perspective in various ways.

 

Ford as a completely owned subsidiary of Toyota would probably be directed to concentrate its production on those three industry sectors as well.

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The ironic part is that at this point most SUVs sold in the US are basically jacked-up station wagons or hatchbacks. (Especially ironic for people who were terrified that SUVs were going to destroy the world or something -- most of them get about the same gas mileage as cars, and basically _are_ cars).

 

Pretty much this. Crossovers are just station wagons that live off of a diet of Doritos, Mountain Dew, and Hot Pockets. People mock my wagon, then promptly get in a boring crossover with all of the personality and performance of a Prius.

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