British Army L85A3

[Dawes]

Is there anything left of the original L85A1?

 

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/11/08/sa80-rifle-upgrade/

[Chris Werb]

Just guessing but...

 

Upper receiver.

Charging handle slot cover.

Buttplate.

Selector switch

Pistol grip

Flash hider/grenade launcher

Rear sling swivel

 

Parts common to original M16 and M16A4. I'm guessing none?

 

PS - strange that we didn't buy the optical sights in FDE or similar.

 

PPS - and the GPMG is back in the section again.

[Dawes]

Oh, I don't know. The odd spring or pin might be common across the M16 universe

[Panzermann]

Oh, I don't know. The odd spring or pin might be common across the M16 universe

 

 

afaik bolt and bolt carrier haven't changed really. action spring and buffer assembly. receiver extension tube. Frontsight base assembly, hand guard retainer, magazine catch and release button. The barrel is still manufactured with 1960ies methods. There is probabaly more. In general most of the parts interchange. See for example the bastardized rifles the USAF issues sometimes, that have been rebuild several times to different standards.

[Chris Werb]

 

Oh, I don't know. The odd spring or pin might be common across the M16 universe

 

 

afaik bolt and bolt carrier haven't changed really. action spring and buffer assembly. receiver extension tube. Frontsight base assembly, hand guard retainer, magazine catch and release button. The barrel is still manufactured with 1960ies methods. There is probabaly more. In general most of the parts interchange. See for example the bastardized rifles the USAF issues sometimes, that have been rebuild several times to different standards.

 

 

The question was, is there anything left of the original - not how many new versions of components interchange with the old. The bolts on early M16s did not have forward assist notches and I think some early ones were chromed. Not sure what you mean by front sight base assembly, but if it's the triangular post, I'm pretty sure it has to be different on the A2 onwards to fit the larger diameter barrel. The hand guard retainers on the original M16 were triangular - from the A2 onward they were circular. I think the original M16 did not have a chrome lined barrels either. I'm not going to argue about the magazine release button and catch - I think the gas tube and takedown pin may well be identical too

 

Any system that's been around as long as the AR has progresses. I would be surprised if any actual component on a Lee Metford Mk 1 (even a screw) would fit an L42A1.

[JW Collins]

So the light mortars are gone from the platoon level in an effort to increase mobility but every section is lugging around a GPMG now?

Edited November 11, 2018 by JW Collins

[Wobbly Head]

So the light mortars are gone from the platoon level in an effort to increase mobility but every section is lugging around a GPMG now?

The GPMG might be heavy but you have never had to lug the completely unbalanced LSW around think of a rifle with a five pound bipod plus support and then put the sling at the middle and butt of the gun.

[shep854]

Remember that the L85 is an AR18 derivative; very little in common with the M16/M4

Comments by a BA vet, former REME, with a tour in Afghanistan

[Chris Werb]

We were only talking about changes over time - not from what weapon the L85 evolved. The very earliest prototypes in the series literally were clumsily bullpupped AR18s. Forgotten weapons has a nice video (as always) about this

 

I'm afraid Matsimus really gets a lot wrong in that video - they changed A LOT more than he indicates they did on the L85A2 changeover.

[Dawes]

Will there be an L85A4?

[Wobbly Head]

Will there be an L85A4?

Considering the MOD is as tight as a ducks sphincter muscle there is a very good chance of it.

[shep854]

We were only talking about changes over time - not from what weapon the L85 evolved. The very earliest prototypes in the series literally were clumsily bullpupped AR18s. Forgotten weapons has a nice video (as always) about this

 

I'm afraid Matsimus really gets a lot wrong in that video - they changed A LOT more than he indicates they did on the L85A2 changeover.

Yes, Ian produced an excellent series. I was about to post one of his videos, but was looking for one that was more -A3 focused.

Is there any place I could look for more correct information?

Edited November 11, 2018 by shep854

[Chris Werb]

I'm waiting on Ian for the definitive A3 video. The thing is there are already rifles out there marked A3 rather presumptiously which do not incorporate all the changes included in the official A3 spec.

 

Incidentally, as for lack of originality, the last time the British Army introduced a general issue infantry rifle that was unambiguously British was 1853.

[bojan]

...that was unambiguously British was 1853.

Nope.

[DB]

You tease.

[Simon Tan]

EM2.....

[bojan]

You tease.

Was based on French rifle.

Brown Bess should be last one, through it shared some features with Dutch guns that predate it.

[DB]

At some point, everything is an evilution of something else, because all of the good ideas have been exercised. The recent Forgotten Weapons episode on Fosberry's pump action shotgun notes that the bolt is remarkably similar to the AR-15 one. How different one 6-lug bolt is going to look compared to another is perhaps the pertinent question. And for the avoidance of doubt, there isno suggestion that the Johnson and then the AR design copied Fosberry in this regard.

[Chris Werb]

 

You tease.

Was based on French rifle.

Brown Bess should be last one, through it shared some features with Dutch guns that predate it.

 

 

Which French rifle was it based on? Simon is correct that the EM2 was adopted, so I was a century out

[shep854]

[bojan]

 

Which French rifle was it based on? Simon is correct that the EM2 was adopted, so I was a century out

 

Well, not rifle itself (it is hard to find originality in the muzzle loaded percussion "rifled muskets"), but a Minie style bullet, or more exactly Boxer's modification of it.

As for EM2, sure was adopted but did not really see any service so it does not count.

For Brown Bess, everyone at a time copied Dutch (they were The Gunsmiths of the Europe at one moment) including Prussians, French and Russians, but with flintlock rifles it is even harded to tell what was original and what was borrowed due the extremely simple mechanism compared to a later weapons.

 

Then there are revolvers, where British lead a world for a while (Adams and Tranter were both light years above Colts of the same period), but decided that further technical development was not needed and kept same 1880s construction until WW2... But it was as British as it could be.

.

[Chris Werb]

Was the Minie rifle we had pre 1853 a foreign design, or just the projectile it shot?

[bojan]

Both projectile and rifling were French designed.

[Gavin-Phillips]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/09/06/british-army-rebalances-small-unit-weapons-load-out/

 

Looking at the interesting article from the link that Chris posted previously, looks like the L86 LSW is going to be replaced by the L7/FN MAG GMPG? Wouldn't that be like replacing an RPK-74 with a PKM?

 

As far as the L86 goes, I must admit it does seem to be a bit of a strange design, having an LMG with the same magazine capacity as the standard assault rifle (30 rounds). Even the Steyr AUG Hbar has a 42-round magazine for the LMG conversion with the longer barrel.

[Chris Werb]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/09/06/british-army-rebalances-small-unit-weapons-load-out/

 

Looking at the interesting article from the link that Chris posted previously, looks like the L86 LSW is going to be replaced by the L7/FN MAG GMPG? Wouldn't that be like replacing an RPK-74 with a PKM?

 

As far as the L86 goes, I must admit it does seem to be a bit of a strange design, having an LMG with the same magazine capacity as the standard assault rifle (30 rounds). Even the Steyr AUG Hbar has a 42-round magazine for the LMG conversion with the longer barrel.

 

The LSW was briefly reintroduced as a DMR - its replacement is the L129A1 DMR (an LMT 7.52x51 AR). The L7 replaces two Minimi Paras, which replaced two LSWs, which replaced one L7 As for an LMG with a capacity the same as the standard rifle, the USMC seem to be OK with it having replaced the M249 with the M27.