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Yes, but remember there weren't 20 years of developments, around 2003 or so the original developer (Norm Koger) moved to other things and TOAW was abandoned for all practical purposes, although the community was quite active in trying to get it do what it should.

 

Then, at some point (can't remember when) Matrix took over and put out Norm's half finished patch which broke more things than it fixed and there was a substantial effort to correct it and gather the community's best scenarios (TOAW-III, last updated in 2015).

 

As the original programming was anything but documented, a new, from the ground up effort has been undertaken to create TOAW-IV (whose rights are fully owned by Matrix in constrast to TOAW-III), but rather than create a 2018 level game, but what has been done is renew the old classic of 1998 fixing bugs and adding some features that the community wanted back in the day (ie 15 years ago), so I can understand that people are underwhelmed.

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As the original programming was anything but documented, a new, from the ground up effort has been undertaken to create TOAW-IV (whose rights are fully owned by Matrix in constrast to TOAW-III), but rather than create a 2018 level game, but what has been done is renew the old classic of 1998 fixing bugs and adding some features that the community wanted back in the day (ie 15 years ago), so I can understand that people are underwhelmed.

 

I don't have any problem with just remastering an old classic to get it to run on modern PCs with modern screen resolutions, fixing bugs, adjusting scenarios to new features and so on.

 

But what really annoys me is this level of laziness, when they don't even bother to update scenario descriptions. Like here.

So what does that mean, now? Is this scenario updated in any way to work properly with TOAW4? Do I have to spend hours myself finding that out? Has it even been updated since the first version of TOAW3?

yEXxcMV.jpg

 

Just for fun, I updated my TOAW4 installation right now to try out if they patched any of the problems I described in my earlier post. The scenario selection actually works now, but when I didn't have music before, now I don't have any sound at all. :D

Edited by Der Zeitgeist
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TOAW actually works flawlessly with old scenarios, ive ported across one I wrote for century of warfare, updated for TOAW III and it still works find. If anything the changes they have made have helped it.

 

Anyway, perhaps we should leave this for the TOAW thread rather than clag up the Armored Brigade one. Lots of good new wargames out there, which is a happy trend I didnt expect.

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Anyway, perhaps we should leave this for the TOAW thread rather than clag up the Armored Brigade one. Lots of good new wargames out there, which is a happy trend I didnt expect.

 

Yes, of course, I'm sorry. Armored Brigade doesn't deserve to be dragged into this. I'll stop now.

 

However, I'll be more than happy to supply additional tales of Matrix horrors in a separate thread, if there's any interest. :)

Edited by Der Zeitgeist
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The TOAW IV thread is here.

http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42598&hl=toaw

 

Worth checking the Matrix forum as well. Im shortly to release Baltic Tempest, my TOAW scenario on there, when I can pluck up the courage to weather the criticism and humiliation. I mean its only been an ongoing process of 20 years, why should I be nervous or anything. :)

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I'm thinking about getting this, too. But after my recent bad experiences with Matrix releases, I'm probably waiting until it's available on Steam.

OOC, what bad experiences were those? I've had my eye on a few products of theirs over the years but the high prices have always kept me away.

 

 

Put shortly, it is the release of games in a state that would normally be called beta or early access, as full price or massively overprized products, combined with developers who are oftentimes unable to cope with any kind of criticism and a totally fanatical fanbase that tries to shield the developers from said criticism.

 

 

I was actually responsible for several additions of weapon loadouts to the Harpoon 2 DB and one downgrading of a base prior to CMANO. I share your criticism.

 

A huge problem is that one person in particular with control of the database, had a huge problem with the way the world really works. He would insist that only warloads that had actually been seen on an in service aircraft, almost invariably in peacetime, could be used in the game. The classic example was the 6xAIM-154 + 2 x AIM-9 loadout for the F-14 which he claimed was only ever done for publicity purposes and could not be used in reality because of bringback weight contstraints. Well, I found loads of photos of that loadout taken over many years and he would still not accept it, despite the fact that the dropping of surplus ordnance in the ocean to permit landing would be an operational decision, not a fundamental technical constraint. In wartime you almost always get aircraft with different loadouts to those seen in peacetime and, if the hardware exists to mount the weapon I see no problem with having that loadout in game - if nothing else you could label it as speculative.

 

His second huge problem was his almost evangelical belief that high sortie rates were impossibly despite huge amounts of historical evidence in the public domain that proved modern jet fighters did not require the pilot to go on a six week Snow Leopard watching trek in Tibet, or in the case of bombers, meet someone special and raise a family to college age between sorties. I would describe this individual as a "contrarian". His attitude turned me off the H2 big time.

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I gave up on the Steel panthers due the pig-headed stubbornness of the design team on insisting "my data >>> your data" even if their data is very dated Jane's and my was original sources.

And the utter shit that was their infantry OOB organization "because having 6 various infantry companies per country would be confusing".

Edited by bojan
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I'm thinking about getting this, too. But after my recent bad experiences with Matrix releases, I'm probably waiting until it's available on Steam.

OOC, what bad experiences were those? I've had my eye on a few products of theirs over the years but the high prices have always kept me away.

 

 

Put shortly, it is the release of games in a state that would normally be called beta or early access, as full price or massively overprized products, combined with developers who are oftentimes unable to cope with any kind of criticism and a totally fanatical fanbase that tries to shield the developers from said criticism.

 

 

I was actually responsible for several additions of weapon loadouts to the Harpoon 2 DB and one downgrading of a base prior to CMANO. I share your criticism.

 

A huge problem is that one person in particular with control of the database, had a huge problem with the way the world really works. He would insist that only warloads that had actually been seen on an in service aircraft, almost invariably in peacetime, could be used in the game. The classic example was the 6xAIM-154 + 2 x AIM-9 loadout for the F-14 which he claimed was only ever done for publicity purposes and could not be used in reality because of bringback weight contstraints. Well, I found loads of photos of that loadout taken over many years and he would still not accept it, despite the fact that the dropping of surplus ordnance in the ocean to permit landing would be an operational decision, not a fundamental technical constraint. In wartime you almost always get aircraft with different loadouts to those seen in peacetime and, if the hardware exists to mount the weapon I see no problem with having that loadout in game - if nothing else you could label it as speculative.

 

His second huge problem was his almost evangelical belief that high sortie rates were impossibly despite huge amounts of historical evidence in the public domain that proved modern jet fighters did not require the pilot to go on a six week Snow Leopard watching trek in Tibet, or in the case of bombers, meet someone special and raise a family to college age between sorties. I would describe this individual as a "contrarian". His attitude turned me off the H2 big time.

 

 

 

I gave a big list of suggested improvemnts to the early 1970's timeframe for CMANO and I got the impression they were not happy to be given a long list. They did make some changes however, not least to the range of the Yak28 and deleting the ECM upgrade from the Vulcan in absolute fairness.

 

Is that a fact with the F14? That will be useful to know, the F14 will be my next ride in DCS so its interesting to know what I can get away with. :D

 

Steel Panthers was fairly easy to edit using something called Mobhack. I re engineered the British orbat with it, put in jazzy stuff (that ws never actually bought in the event) such as Warrior Trigat and Apaches fitted with Helstreak. I think that allowed me to stick with it, long after it would have passed its sell by date. SP3 was my favourite, even if brigade level operations were a bit contrived.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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I gave up on the Steel panthers due the pig-headed stubbornness of the design team on insisting "my data >>> your data" even if their data is very dated Jane's and my was original sources.

And the utter shit that was their infantry OOB organization "because having 6 various infantry companies per country would be confusing".

I haven't looked at other games at Matrix. I'm just doing development with one other guy. Development is slow as it is a 3D game. But with our game the user can modify the data.

 

A number of years ago I made a proof of concept 3D model of a t-55 and could of gone on to make cold war models if there was any interest in a 3D tactical modern armor game.

Edited by Mobius
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  • 2 months later...

I just bought this today, and I think its excellent. It reminds me of an unholy mix of Steel Panthers and CMANO, but actually rather more interesting than either.

 

If I can offer some criticism, id like to see NBC warfare modelled. I think the suppression it would bring would make it worth the extra effort. Ditto NBC recce.

 

Just having fun modding the hell out of the database. its like the days when I could mod Steel Panthers to my hearts content using Mobhack. Much fun.

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Chemical warfare would cause notable casualties only to the surprised or the unprepared troops, as the vast majority of tactical units of the era were generally well prepared with regards to equipment, training and operating under NBC conditions, and early in a war vigilance would be high that surprise is unlikely. The countermeasures a local commander could take (MOPP, dispersion, etc.) would all be in effect anyway since no sane commander would just assume chemicals would absolutely not be used, at least not early in a war. So, the primary effect of chemical strikes would be to slow everything down and generally reduce the effectiveness of both sides more or less proportionally, through degradation of fighting ability and manoeuvre.

 

Non-persistent agents really wouldn't be any different than any other sort of suppressive artillery fire, except likely less lethal and worse for morale on average, with prompt effects at all only against dismounted troops and non-protected vehicles, with penalties in regard to movement speed, visibility, aiming, and rate of fire. Persistent agents would, on the other hand, add contaminated areas, possibly as some kind of a passable obstacle.

Also, it is questionable if the tactical commander would be allowed to authorized any kind of NBC attack, hence switching to operational level which is well outside the scope of AB. Even the "tactical" nukes are actually operational-level weapons, generally controlled by no lower authority than division, and really have no role in "front-line" battles. Frankly, they aren't very effective at damaging typically spread-out, armored tactical units. If anything can survive a nearby nuclear blast, its an armored vehicle or troops in foxholes. A typical 5kT tactical weapon might have a prompt destruction radius of 500-1000m, depending on terrain. Even if your targeting is precise and timely, you're not likely to kill more than a company or two of tanks with that weapon. Far better to reserve those scarce assets for relatively soft, concentrated, high-value targets like HQs, supply depots, and assembly areas. Their main effect at the tactical scale would be to make commanders reluctant to collect their forces in too small an area. That is why towards the late '60 doctrines started to empathize more of a conventional conflict.

 

NBC can have a role in the game, but it is fairly limited and at this point definitely not worth investing the time. Maybe later (you will notice there are NBC systems on vehicles). And in theory, you can simulate chemical or even post-nuclear attack with local destruction feature, setting the map to bad ground conditions, setting the map environment to bad, day temperature to extreme hot, lower morale and/or training value etc.

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If you do plan on modelling tactical nuclear weapons, ive a USMC manual from 1968 with unclassified wargaming data of the effects of various tactical nuclear weapons. I can be persuaded to dig it out and scan it if its something that would be of any use to you.

 

I could certainly see the point of simulating something like Davy Crocket, though I think it was slightly before this time period.

 

Im having fun modding it at the moment. Its a doddle to put together company teams. That really makes managing all the units a hell of a lot easier.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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You can, yes, I actually copied a BRM1 someone had engineered out of a BMP, and that works well. It even has a work around for the Tall Mike Radar, which I was planning on copying to build ZB298. The thing that would take time is modding the png files to turn it into a BMP, but that seems to be doable fairly easily enough in GIMP.

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  • 2 months later...

We do have an integrated database editor (I insisted on that since the early days as a freeware modder) and it is possible to do WW2 or modern stuff including years. OK, some of the modern weapon systems can be a bit tricky as they might require additional core mechanics in order to be modeled realistically (what comes to my mind are UAVs, active/passive protecting systems etc.). We are considering moving into that direction as military clients might be interested in Armored Brigade.

 

By the way, today afternoon we are going to announce our first DLC. It will be a nation pack introducing Italy and Yugoslavia. I have to admit that latter in particular indirectly benefited from wealth of knowledge Bojan disseminated here and elsewhere over the years, so I would like to publicly thank him. Actually, I would extend that to the whole Tank-net, as I learned so many things here over the last 7 years!

 

And also, on DLC release day (9th May) there will also be a patch which will introduce highly demanded Campaign Generator, which is actually a bigger news!

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  • 1 month later...

Yeah, that was a really nice piece of work he did there.

 

I was tempted to do one of Estonia, but we really want a challenger 2 and a Leclerc to make it worthwhile.

On the plus side, you only need four of the former to model our MBT deterrent posture in the Baltics :)

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  • 3 months later...

User CCIP-subsim is still working on a large mod for Armored Brigade, currently focusing mainly on the Chechen Civil War (1994) and the First Chechen War (1994-1996), with a more limited ability to represent the Second Chechen War (1999-200x) as well.

 

Mod features:

 

-Two completed, 15x15km maps (Grozny and Kalinovakaya), with further additions planned

 

-A standalone database of historical units and weapons from the era designed mainly for asymmetric, urban combat - represented in three factions (Russian Federation, Chechen Republic, and Chechen Opposition)

 

-(new) Ten unique scenarios designed for the mod and Grozny map - focusing specifically on actions of Group North on December 31st 1994 and January 1st 1995 (2 large scenarios, 8 small ones; 6 for the Russian side and 4 for the separatists).

 

And many, many others!

 

DOWNLOAD: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jssaTb_IyNBIKtRhEdXmDAXvVXZL8LRQ

 

The mod is still a beta but judging by the immense effort put so far, even this earlier version adds tons of material and new content.

 

Kudos to CCIP-subsim for this great work!

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  • 4 weeks later...

AB_France_outSteam_fb-post.jpg

 

We are very proud to reveal the second DLC we are working on. After covering the struggles of the southern front between Italy and Yugoslavia, it’s time to refocus on north-central Europe. France and Belgium are indeed the protagonists for this second Nation Pack, bringing their armed forces in a new map, the Ardennes. Check out the product page for more details.

 

Armored Brigade and both the Nation Packs will be out on Steam on October 31st.

Summary of the features:

  • two new factions: France and Belgium
  • new map: Ardennes, centered around Bastogne
  • overall more than 200 new units

 

FRANCE:

A striking feature of the French formations of 1970s is the extent to which they were tank-heavy, due to their intended mode of operations. Their tactics were closer to US Armored Cavalry Regiments (or, indeed, their own pre-WW2 Division Légère Mécanique) in that they were not intended for holding ground. Like the DLM of 1940, the mechanized regiments were to operate like the earlier dragons portes, locating and delaying the enemy and preparing the situation for a counter strike by the tank regiments. However, during the 1980s the heavy manoeuvre forces saw an increase in the proportion of infantry, through the attachment of motorized infantry divisions to the corps headquarters, addition of VAB-equipped infantry regiments to infantry divisions, and an increase in the number of infantry companies in mechanized regiments.

BELGIUM:

As host to NATO since 1967, Belgium has always placed great importance on functioning as a reliable and credible ally. Despite the small size of its population and demanding colonial commitments, Belgium managed to make a significant contribution to NATO collective defence, deploying half of its Army to the FRG as part of the Belgian I Corps. The remainder of the army comprised the Forces of Interior responsible for the defense of the home territory, made up of regular army units which would be augmented in wartime by the local gendarmerie and reserve forces. In addition, the Forces Interior were supplemented by a regiment of elite para-commandos with two airborne infantry and one commando battalion. However, much of its equipment remained obsolescent; its main battle tank, the Leopard 1(BE) was of 1960s vintage and its M75 and AMX-13 Mod 56 APCs, as well as its Alouette II helicopters were almost museum-pieces from the 1950s. However, the Army went through a modest re-equipment programme through the 1980s; upgrading its APCs and artillery, increasing the numbers of ATGMs and replacing most of the Air Force’s fast jets with modern aircraft. Nevertheless, the Belgian Army of the Cold War remains a very interesting and challenging faction.

 

P.S Multiple stacking limit (fixing all pathfind and traffic congestion issues) is currently available as open beta patch, and will be released as standard patch soon, together with plethora of other improvements

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I meant to say, I tried out the campaign creator the other day. I like it a lot, the only think I can think of as an improvement would be crew skills that develops with kills, as we had with Steel Panthers. (and maybe ARV's)

 

Glad its making it to steam, I hope you have a lot of success with it.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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