Dawes Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 One would have thought that H&K would have gotten this award: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/11/bavarian-fn-scar/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 The actual remarkable thing here is that judging from the numbers, it seems to be an order for the rank and file. SEKs have acquired non-HK rifles in various German states before; Bavaria itself the AUG, NRW officers were seen with the SCAR during the recent Münster car rampage incident, and some others including Berlin are using the SIG 55x. This seems to be part of the move to introduce rifles for more general police use in response to heavily armed terrorist attacks in France etc. from the last years, succeeding the MP 5 that has been standard patrol car issue so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 The actual remarkable thing here is that judging from the numbers, it seems to be an order for the rank and file. SEKs have acquired non-HK rifles in various German states before; Bavaria itself the AUG, NRW officers were seen with the SCAR during the recent Münster car rampage incident, and some others including Berlin are using the SIG 55x. This seems to be part of the move to introduce rifles for more general police use in response to heavily armed terrorist attacks in France etc. from the last years, succeeding the MP 5 that has been standard patrol car issue so far. Schleswig-Holstein is putting 522 SIG-Sauer MCX into service: https://strategie-technik.blogspot.com/2017/11/streifenbuchse-in-schleswig-holstein.html Saxonia has put Haenel CR223 (AR-15/M16-ish rifles made in Thuringia): https://strategie-technik.blogspot.com/2017/01/providentiae-memor-die-sachsische.html#more But for the average patrol car a SCAR-L is too expensive IMHO. More training time on the already in inventory MP5 (and the applicable service pistol) would be money better spent. what use is the best bangstick, if the average policeman cannot hit a barn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 The problem with 9x19 is danger to bystanders relative to 5.56x45. Obvously that's projectile dependent to a degree, but 5.56 is much safer, on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-44 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 But for the average patrol car a SCAR-L is too expensive IMHO. More training time on the already in inventory MP5 (and the applicable service pistol) would be money better spent. what use is the best bangstick, if the average policeman cannot hit a barn?Yeah, but it's far easier presenting shiny new toys that only involve the vost if purchase than arranging thorough training regimes (with abundant amlunition avzilable) that would ensure a decent level of competency among the rank and file. Belgian local and federal police have recently been granted permission to acquire .300 AAC rifles (previously all weapons were limited by law to 9x19, special squirrels aside). Yet what is indeed the use if a normal officer gets only 4/5 range sessions a year (one being a mandatory qualification on a very outdated FBI style circuit). Average ammo expenditure a person during such trainings is 50 rounds btw... but hey, can't afford to buy more ammo / have fewer patrols available can we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 I wonder how well a minimally practised shooter would do against any given target, comparing the two. Obviously neglecting that body armour more or less negates 9x19 anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 The problem with 9x19 is danger to bystanders relative to 5.56x45. Obvously that's projectile dependent to a degree, but 5.56 is much safer, on average. The ACTION line from Dynamit Nobel (now RUAG Ammotec) or PEP from MEN has been standard issue for german police forces including the Feldjäger since early 2000s and the projectiles reliably deform. The classic saying of 9 Para, one hit two dead does not apply anymore. FMJ only for using up old stocks in training. (or for war in case of the Feldjäger) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I wonder how well a minimally practised shooter would do against any given target, comparing the two. Obviously neglecting that body armour more or less negates 9x19 anyway. Normal FMJ or any deformation bullet, sure. but there are AP loads, but then those suck at making wounds. here a leaflet from RUAG ammotec on their LEO/MIL bullets:https://www.ruag.com/sites/default/files/media_document/2017-01/9x19_Deformation_Ammunition_en_low.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Less about the bullet, more about the aiming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FALightFighter Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Less about the bullet, more about the aiming.Right on! Anybody volunteering to get shot with a .380, or even a .22? I didn't think so!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 The problem with 9x19 is danger to bystanders relative to 5.56x45. Obvously that's projectile dependent to a degree, but 5.56 is much safer, on average. The ACTION line from Dynamit Nobel (now RUAG Ammotec) or PEP from MEN has been standard issue for german police forces including the Feldjäger since early 2000s and the projectiles reliably deform. The classic saying of 9 Para, one hit two dead does not apply anymore. FMJ only for using up old stocks in training. (or for war in case of the Feldjäger) I'm not sure how these things would stack up against something like Hornady V-Max or its police equivalent (TAP?) in 5.56x45. The latter pretty much completely disintegrates shortly after impact (I've had it blow up on weed stems) whilst both the above hold together, so if they do penetrate (which they will do a lot less than FMJ) they will just keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Less about the bullet, more about the aiming. I recently read an article that claimed that at typical defensive gun use distances an expert was only 10% more accurate with a pistol between three and 15ft. All that extra skill doesn't buy you much more effectiveness in the most likely real world situation. That is not an argument against skill, just how things tend to pan out in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I will try again How much more likely, for any engagement, ignoring factors such as target body armour, is a person, who has minimal training, likely to effectively hit a target when using a rifle compared to using an MP5, if at all. Yes, it's a broad question. Genetalities in response are expected. I ask because, in the ridiculously linited experience I have, over 25m I was more accurate with a Sterling on semi than with an SLR. In my case, "minimal" means about 10 rounds total for thise weapons, but maybe 1000 with training rifles in .22lr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 L1A1 is bigger and harder to manage. Small carbines will always be easier for those with limited training. See M1 Carbine. Also lower recoil, less blast and flash reduce flinch. As for 5.56 being the desired solution for a patrol rifle, it is not if you have a short barrel and ball ammo. A pistol caliber carbine with longer barrel has less blast, less recoil and is as easy to hit with if you zero properly. Overpenetration is not an issue with expanding ammunition and is far less of one than not hitting the target. But no doubt I will be told I know nothing and am talking out my ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 It's the longest answer to any question you've given in months, of course there is more to criticise. Thanks for answering Of note is perhaps that I didn't feel that the SLR was too brutal to be used, even as a callow youth. Didn't get enough shooting to actually be coached, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 L1A1 is bigger and harder to manage. Small carbines will always be easier for those with limited training. See M1 Carbine. Also lower recoil, less blast and flash reduce flinch. As for 5.56 being the desired solution for a patrol rifle, it is not if you have a short barrel and ball ammo. A pistol caliber carbine with longer barrel has less blast, less recoil and is as easy to hit with if you zero properly. Overpenetration is not an issue with expanding ammunition and is far less of one than not hitting the target. But no doubt I will be told I know nothing and am talking out my ass. Not talking out of your ass, but overpenetration of a body is not the only issue. Low velocity bullets that hold together will tend to penetrate further through the likes of drywall/sheetrock. Likewise they will bounce on tarmac, walls etc. if they miss. Lightly constructed high velocity rounds, in my experience, blow up on pretty much anything. That makes .17HMR. 22 Hornet and .222 and .223Rem hugely less dangerous to use in the countryside than .22LR (and yes, I've owned and used all five). I'm sure you will agree the trend has been strongly away from 9x19 toward 5.56x45 and analogs in police carbines. There are reasons for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 L1A1 is bigger and harder to manage. Small carbines will always be easier for those with limited training. See M1 Carbine. Also lower recoil, less blast and flash reduce flinch. As for 5.56 being the desired solution for a patrol rifle, it is not if you have a short barrel and ball ammo. A pistol caliber carbine with longer barrel has less blast, less recoil and is as easy to hit with if you zero properly. Overpenetration is not an issue with expanding ammunition and is far less of one than not hitting the target. But no doubt I will be told I know nothing and am talking out my ass. Much easier to shoot and hit with than the standard issue pistol and uses the same ammunition. In some cases the same magazines even. The sexy short 556 guns blow your ears out and any bystander's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Fashion and ignorant administrators. 9mm ranges are much more common. Training is better than gear. Hits are better than misses. You are not Tier 1. Know your limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-44 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 For ease of use and getting of hits with minimal training, I still think the P90 is a really well thought out weapon. The ammo however, might not meet all expectations for police use. But the general size and ergonomics are, IMHO, far better suited for police work than any AR15 pattern or even MP5 or the like subguns. Cause in reality, actual weapon use will be limited, but handcuffing or searching someone with your weapon slung will be frequent (as/or transitions to less lethal force) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Fashion and ignorant administrators. 9mm ranges are much more common. Training is better than gear. Hits are better than misses. You are not Tier 1. Know your limits. For the most part I agree. But when you are in rural Arizona (or Mongolia or...) or something similar empty area, a full size rifle might make sense. And if only for putting down wild animals or runaway cattle. Bavarian police has taken out old G3 from storage and issues deformation bullets for putting down game, cattle, horses etc. for example. But for urban police use a pistol caliber carbine/sub-machine gun is the better choice in most cases. For ease of use and getting of hits with minimal training, I still think the P90 is a really well thought out weapon. The ammo however, might not meet all expectations for police use. But the general size and ergonomics are, IMHO, far better suited for police work than any AR15 pattern or even MP5 or the like subguns. Cause in reality, actual weapon use will be limited, but handcuffing or searching someone with your weapon slung will be frequent (as/or transitions to less lethal force) The wound ballistics suck with the 5,7 mm bullets. Ammuniiton is also relatively expensive, because of the limited market. And with a modern quickly adjustable two point sling controlling a rifle or subgun are not that much of a problem. And does not take much training getting used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 The SCAR-L is not for the rank and file. It is for the special squirrels, the action forces and in a very limited number for the larger police stations. It is not to be taken on normal daily patrols, but it sure makes sense if local stations have such weapons available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-44 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) SCAR-L in .300 (yet to be fully developped) is reportedly in the running for "general" adoption by Belgian federal police, replacing (1970s!) FN Uzi Edited October 17, 2018 by T-44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-44 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Update: SCAR-SC in .300 has been chosen by Belgian federal police to replace their existing MPs (mainly still FN made UZIs). Local police units will be able to purchase the weapon through the federal contract. Guestimate: some 2000 weapons total if local police departments also swap their subguns out (mix of H&K mp5, ump, Steyr AUG a3 in 9mm, and some lingering UZIs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Update: SCAR-SC in .300 has been chosen by Belgian federal police to replace their existing MPs (mainly still FN made UZIs). Local police units will be able to purchase the weapon through the federal contract. Guestimate: some 2000 weapons total if local police departments also swap their subguns out (mix of H&K mp5, ump, Steyr AUG a3 in 9mm, and some lingering UZIs) test firing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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