Because The Roman Catholic Church

[Murph]

I remember that. She was a trainwreck, and a gift that kept on giving.

 

 

 

The RCC just keep digging that hole deeper. I might as well go back to being a Protestant at this rate, since it does not appear that anything is going to be done except a Democrat level cover-up.

You could shift to COE or Episcopalian. OR the other direction and try Eastern Orthodox. There's probably an Orthodox church around some pocket of Byzantine Greeks in Texas seems to be odd pockets of every other European culture there.

 

 

No go on the ECUSA, I was one for most of my life, baptized, an altar boy, married in an Episcopal church. They are dead to me.

 

 

 

I was baptized Roman Catholic, grew up in the ECUSA, and am now part of ACNA/GAFCON. I would have literally nothing to do with ECUSA (having been excommunicated from them) were my parent's not still members. This meme pic is spot on. The amazing part to me is how the female "Bishop" in the picture spent millions of dollars the ECUSA didn't have to sue the ACNA separatist congregations, and defaulting on the mortgage on the ECUSA HQ building in the process. Had she seen to her own house instead of conducting a scorched earth campaign... well... I may be bitter, but it's with a damned good reason. The Apostate will double down on their apostasy.

 

[CT96]

A deacon refuses to assist at Mass for Cardinal Wuerl: https://pjmedia.com/faith/prominent-d-c-deacon-calls-on-cardinal-wuerl-to-resign-says-he-will-no-longer-assist-him-during-mass/ It looks like the conspiracy of silence is starting to crumble. Then there was the pope, sigh, he states that if you expose bishops sin then you are in league with the devil. Can he get any more ignorant? Or does the Lavender Mafia have something they are holding over him? He is a Jesuit after all.

Once your group/movement/etc is entrenched enough, you only ever let someone near the controls if they are either a part of the group/movement/etc or you have something with which to guarantee their loyalty to the group/movement/etc. Otherwise you risk exposure.

[sunday]

A deacon refuses to assist at Mass for Cardinal Wuerl: https://pjmedia.com/faith/prominent-d-c-deacon-calls-on-cardinal-wuerl-to-resign-says-he-will-no-longer-assist-him-during-mass/ It looks like the conspiracy of silence is starting to crumble. Then there was the pope, sigh, he states that if you expose bishops sin then you are in league with the devil. Can he get any more ignorant? Or does the Lavender Mafia have something they are holding over him? He is a Jesuit after all.

 

Look up "St. Gallen Group".

[BansheeOne]

Date 12.09.2018

 

Thousands of sex abuse cases in German Catholic Church – report

More than half of the victims were younger than 13 and predominantly male. The study's findings were based on documented cases that occurred over more than six decades.

 

A study commissioned by the German Bishops Conference examined 3,677 cases of abuse allegedly perpetrated by clergy nationwide, German magazine Der Spiegel reported on Wednesday. The universities of Giessen, Heidelberg and Mannheim were involved in the research, which implicated 1,670 priests in sexual abuse spanning from 1946 to 2014.

 

The report comes amidst a resurfacing of abuse and cover-up allegations against the Catholic Church around the world. Pope Francis has apologized and pledged to support victims in their search for justice, but he has also been singled out for inaction against abuser priests in the past.

 

The victims in Germany were predominantly male and more than half of them were 13 years of age or younger. Every sixth case involved a rape, and in three-quarters of the cases the victim and perpetrator knew each other through the church.

 

More cases could exists, the study cautions, noting that the figures represent a conservative estimate. German newspaper Die Zeit reported that researchers were not allowed to look at original church files, but relied on information provided by the dioceses.

 

In many cases, files containing information about the accusers were "destroyed or manipulated," contributing to the difficulty in assessing the extent of the abuse.

 

The study warned that there was no reason to believe that sexual abuse of minors by Catholic Church clergy was a thing of the past, as continued abuse was still occurring in 2014, the last year of the investigative period.

 

Priests relocated

 

Accused priests were often quietly transferred to other parishes, without providing the affected communities with information about the abuser. The church pursued only a third of abusers, who submitted themselves to church law. But they received either minimal sanctions or dismissed charges altogether.

 

[...]

 

https://www.dw.com/en/thousands-of-sex-abuse-cases-in-german-catholic-church-report/a-45459734

 

Pope Francis summons bishops to Vatican for summit on preventing sex abuse

Jane Onyanga-Omara | USA TODAY

Published 7:53 AM EDT Sep 12, 2018

Pope Francis has summoned the presidents of Catholic bishops conferences worldwide to the Vatican in February to discuss how to stop clergy from sexually abusing children.

 

The meeting, on February 21-24, is believed to be the first of its kind. Some clergy from the Catholic Church have been carrying out abuse for decades.

 

[...]

 

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/09/12/pope-francis-summons-bishops-vatican-clergy-sex-abuse-summit/1276722002/

[NickM]

 

The RCC just keep digging that hole deeper. I might as well go back to being a Protestant at this rate, since it does not appear that anything is going to be done except a Democrat level cover-up.

You could shift to COE or Episcopalian. OR the other direction and try Eastern Orthodox. There's probably an Orthodox church around some pocket of Byzantine Greeks in Texas seems to be odd pockets of every other European culture there.

 

Well there IS a Greek church in the greater Dallas area; one of my college buddies is a member.

[sunday]

3,677 alleged abuses, a sixth of them rapes, over 68 years. This means 54 average alleged abuses / 9 average alleged rapes per year.

Currently there are 23,6 million Catholics in Germany, 22,7 million in 1946. It would be useful to know the cases reported every year.

 

Here are some current statistics for the general population of Germany. I think the section titled "Law Enforcement Response" could be useful in order to understand the figures presented in the DW article.

[Jeff]

 

Pope Francis summons bishops to Vatican for summit on preventing sex abuse

 

 

Jane Onyanga-Omara | USA TODAY

Published 7:53 AM EDT Sep 12, 2018

 

 

Pope Francis has summoned the presidents of Catholic bishops conferences worldwide to the Vatican in February to discuss how to stop clergy from sexually abusing children.

 

The meeting, on February 21-24, is believed to be the first of its kind. Some clergy from the Catholic Church have been carrying out abuse for decades.

 

[...]

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/09/12/pope-francis-summons-bishops-vatican-clergy-sex-abuse-summit/1276722002/

 

Taking time away from all his important work on climate change and immigration, poor guy. Apparently, it's the Devil's doing.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I dont think you can blame just the present pope for problems that are long standing. We had a couple of Schools linked to Monasteries that allegations have been leveled at since the 1960's. In Ireland, the problems clearly go back even further than that. Every pope since that time has to take some of the blame for that. So do local authorities.

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6042731/Sex-abuse-Catholic-private-schools-worse-conviction-figures-show.html

Edited September 12, 2018 by Stuart Galbraith

[sunday]

I dont think you can blame just the present pope for problems that are long standing. We had a couple of Schools linked to Monasteries that allegations have been leveled at since the 1960's. In Ireland, the problems clearly go back even further than that. Every pope since that time has to take some of the blame for that. So do local authorities.

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6042731/Sex-abuse-Catholic-private-schools-worse-conviction-figures-show.html

 

There could be some UK-related peculiarities at play here, and it is more than a couple of schools. There are plenty of news on the matter, but some pro-state schools agenda could not be disregarded.

 

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-18/shocking-scale-of-sexual-abuse-at-uk-boarding-schools-revealed-by-itv-documentary/

[rmgill]

I dont think you can blame just the present pope for problems that are long standing.

 

You can't blame him for the actions. You can blame him for failing to deal with it and for letting it fester more. He apparently, reversed a punishment that a major figure was under for his predilections.

 

Pederasty and homosexuality in seminaries isn't apparently a problem for him.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oh sure, it was far more than just those 2, its just two local ones that ive been paying attention to. The Downside Abbey one I thought was particularly struck by, because a Downside Abbey Monk was one of my Tutors on an Open University Course. Very intelligent moral man, as im sure the majority of them there are.

 

There is a long and inglorious history of cover up in the British establishment, which a good gander at how they closed ranks over the Jeremy Thorpe affair. The point is, the laxness of local and national authorities was appalling. But being Roman Catholic Schools,clearly the Church could have intervened. And they failed too. I would put that down to not wanting to tread on toes in a Protestant country, if precisely the same problem didnt occur in Eire as well.

 

 

 

I think that a lot of this is just very large organizations behaving in a not particularly efficient and competent manner over a long period, and that the rapid rise of information technology has made exposing a lot of these problems a lot easier. I cant fault them for that, but I can fault them for not recognizing there is still a problem and not being considerably more efficient in dealing with it.

When the Pope went to Ireland, he got how people were upset. He talked with the victims, commiserated with them. But what he didnt do is provide any kind of formula for demonstrating all those responsible will be punished and ensuring it wont happen again. One victims association claims hey are still holding onto files the Church created in Ireland, and refuse to release them to the authorities. For no particularly good reasons as far as I can tell.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ap-pope-heads-to-ireland-amid-new-global-outrage-over-sex-abuse-2018-8-2?r=US&IR=T

 

Im not being anti Catholic by saying this, Im being anti bureaucratic, and thats not an issue that begins and ends at the Catholic Church. Far from it, plenty of organizations have this exact same issue as we have seen.

[sunday]

 

I dont think you can blame just the present pope for problems that are long standing.

 

You can't blame him for the actions. You can blame him for failing to deal with it and for letting it fester more. He apparently, reversed a punishment that a major figure was under for his predilections.

 

Pederasty and homosexuality in seminaries isn't apparently a problem for him.

 

 

I think you are mostly right in those two points, Ryan. See here, for instance. I am beginning to think there was something fishy in that Conclave.

 

Then, there is this.

Edited September 12, 2018 by sunday

[sunday]

(...)

 

Im not being anti Catholic by saying this, Im being anti bureaucratic, and thats not an issue that begins and ends at the Catholic Church. Far from it, plenty of organizations have this exact same issue as we have seen.

 

Indeed, indeed. However, it is somewhat comforting that even non-Catholics expect the highest standards from the RCC.

Edited September 12, 2018 by sunday

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

I dont think you can blame just the present pope for problems that are long standing.

 

You can't blame him for the actions. You can blame him for failing to deal with it and for letting it fester more. He apparently, reversed a punishment that a major figure was under for his predilections.

 

Pederasty and homosexuality in seminaries isn't apparently a problem for him.

 

 

Yes, and on that point. I dont disagree with you. Im just saying that this is a problem that past incumbents in the role have to take some of the responsibility of not dealing with it also.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

(...)

 

Im not being anti Catholic by saying this, Im being anti bureaucratic, and thats not an issue that begins and ends at the Catholic Church. Far from it, plenty of organizations have this exact same issue as we have seen.

 

Indeed, indeed. However, it is somewhat comforting that even non-Catholics expect the highest standards from the RCC.

 

 

Well someone needs to take a leadership role on this kind of thing. I dont see any of the other major religions being better placed to show it. Buddists are indulging in Purges in Burma, and the Russian Orthodox is an outstation of the FSB. So that leaves only one group that can deal with it.

 

I try to show respect to all religions. I dont personally go much for organized religions myself, mainly because the larger they get the more they seem like political movements to me. I dont despise them either.

[sunday]

(...)

 

Yes, and on that point. I dont disagree with you. Im just saying that this is a problem that past incumbents in the role have to take some of the responsibility of not dealing with it also.

St. JPII main worry was to fight Marxism, both inside, and outside the Church.

 

BXVI complained about his power ending at his office's door, as the McCarrick case shows.

Edited September 12, 2018 by sunday

[Stuart Galbraith]

Was there much of a fight INSIDE the church against Marxism? Ive never read anything about that, but it doesnt surprise me either.

[sunday]

Was there much of a fight INSIDE the church against Marxism? Ive never read anything about that, but it doesnt surprise me either.

Look here: https://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201410/what-liberation-theology-29433

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thanks.

 

I shouldnt be much surprised, we have flirted with a similar problem ourselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett_Johnson

[beans4]

 

Was there much of a fight INSIDE the church against Marxism? Ive never read anything about that, but it doesnt surprise me either.

Look here: https://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201410/what-liberation-theology-29433

 

I just finished reading The Pope and Mussolini by David Kertzer, about how Pope Pius XI used the Fascists as a bulwark against the socialists/communists, as well as tool to try to restore some of the power and prestige the Catholic Church lost when the Kingdom of Italy was established in 1870. Mussolini in turn sought legitimacy for the Fascists. The Italian Church was highly anti-Marxist in the 20's and 30's, though also almost as highly anti-democratic.

[sunday]

 

 

Was there much of a fight INSIDE the church against Marxism? Ive never read anything about that, but it doesnt surprise me either.

Look here: https://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201410/what-liberation-theology-29433

 

I just finished reading The Pope and Mussolini by David Kertzer, about how Pope Pius XI used the Fascists as a bulwark against the socialists/communists, as well as tool to try to restore some of the power and prestige the Catholic Church lost when the Kingdom of Italy was established in 1870. Mussolini in turn sought legitimacy for the Fascists. The Italian Church was highly anti-Marxist in the 20's and 30's, though also almost as highly anti-democratic.

 

 

It could be said that the Lateran Treaty with Fascist Italy restored some normality to the status of Vatican City, it would not be no surprise to state that a number of Italian Governments post-Unification were not very friendly with the Church. At least, Mussolini could pass without the head of the Pope on his mantelpiece.

 

I wonder how that author discusses the encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge.

[beans4]

Briefly, he says the Pope was becoming increasingly anti-Nazi, and had been pressuring Mussolini to use his influence with Hitler to moderate him somewhat. Ironically, the Church hierarchy itself was somewhat anti-Semitic and were not as anti-Nazi as Pius XI. But Mussolini, who had once regarded Hitler as a semi-imbecile, was wowed following a visit to Berlin and concluded partnering with Germany would put Italy on the path to the re-establishment of the Roman Empire. Italy, which had been somewhat tolerant of Jews up to that point, started adopting policies modeled after the Nazis, which further alarmed Pius XI. At the time of his death, Pius XI was working on a document highly critical of Mussolini, but did not live to see its release. The author accuses Cardinal Pacelli, who would become Pope Pius XII and was even more pro-Fascist than Pius XI, had the document suppressed.

[sunday]

Oh, another of "those" historians that think of Pius XII as a Nazi sympathizer. Would only read that book in order to see, among others, the rhetorical acrobacies around Eugenio Maria Zolli.

 

Hint: Guess who actually wrote Mit Brennender Sorge.

Edited September 12, 2018 by sunday

[beans4]

This author deals primarily with Pius XI in this book, though Pius XII when he was just Cardinal Pacelli was also an important figure in this period. I would say the viewpoint is of Pacelli/Pius XII remaining a strong Fascist and Mussolini supporter, when Pius XI had concluded that Mussolini had moved too far in his emulation of the Nazis, Hitler and racism. Pacelli/Pius XII seemed to be portrayed as being primarily concerned with the maintenance of amicable relations between the Vatican and the Fascists in Italy, and not so much whatever was going on in Germany at that time.

 

That Pacelli was the author of of some of the anti-Nazi language in Mit Brennender Sorge is surprising to me based on my single reading of the book. A quick look at the book's index did not help zero in on that event. I'd have thought that Hitler would have regarded Pius XI more of a moral enemy at that time. I do not recall a mention of Zolli in the book, though after the death of Pius XI, the book is mostly finished, although it does give a summary of Mussolini's brief time as the leader of the puppet government in northern Italy and his demise following his capture by partisans.

 

I was initially somewhat suspicious of a Jewish author writing about the relationship between Mussolini and the Pope, expecting a generally anti-Catholic piece along the lines of "the Church sat on its hands while millions of Jews were murdered", but his view toward Pius XI is generally even-handed in my opinion. OTOH he is often harsh with others in the Vatican (and pederasty is one of the things mentioned).

[rmgill]

Then, there is this.

That's a fair point.

 

Though I can see them focusing on a specific group based on specific reports/allegations of crimes.