Chris Werb Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 The AMX-13 with the original oscillating turret and 75mm gun apparently entered service in 1953. However, one source states that they tested the vehicle with an M24 turret in 1957 and ordered 150 such vehicles as late as 1960. 1. Why did they order a vehicle with what appears to be a much inferior main gun to the existing one, that late on? 2. Were these new vehicles with turrets taken from M24s or existing ones with oscillating turrets replaced by M24 turrets? The only reason I can think of is that they might have gotten used in Algeria to use up stocks of ammo from M4s, M24s and even M1897s on insurgents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 The hulls of the M24 Chaffees were getting old and worn out, so the French gave the still useabe turrets a new home. Also cheaper than building those neww-fangled oscillating FL-1* turrets. France has always been on a budget. And as you say, certainly capable of bringing the Code civil des Français to the colonized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Sort of "last of the colonial tanks", existing turret and gun that are well suited for the low-tech mission combined with a new hull that is part of an already large family of vehicles being made or developed for the french army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On the way Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) From what I understand, and some of this is educated guesses, so I could be wrong. 1) Fives-Cail Babcock which made the oscillating turret was having a longer development for it, understandably as its quite a complicated design for that era. The hull and chassis was ready from Atelier de Construction. The French M24, handed over from the US were almost 10 years old and might have seen hard usage. Particularly the engine, tranny and running gear. As well, the twin Cadillacs in the M24 must have been hard to maintain. So, the French stripped the turrets from their M24, and installed into the new hulls that was already ready from ATC. 2) My understanding was that in fact, the M24 turret mated to the AMX hull was the initial version. This is from tanknutdave's website, and was in service in 1951/52. The production model with the Babcock 75mm oscillating turret came into service in 53 as u mentioned. 3) The version with the M24 turret was indeed used in Algeria. If you will recall, although the Chaffee 75mm M6 gun was inferior in many ways to the French 75mm CN-50-75mm, the Chaffee's gun could fire canister rounds, and no such rounds were developed for the French gun at that time. I am sure canister rounds would have been more appropriate in the French Africa conflicts, but not sure if they ever had stocks or used them. That could have been useful, and might have been a consideration. 4) The M24 turret required a loader, and hence an extra crew member. Lack of a bow gun brought the number of crewmen down to 4, but that is still very very tight in a AMX hull. The later oscillating turret with its semi auto loader required only 3 crew. Just a stop gap measure by the French. 5) BTW, there is a version out there with a Babcock oscillating turret on a M24 Chassis. LOL. Could not have been easy to putz around with the turret ring to fit all these turrets on there. Edited August 31, 2018 by On the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 The Chars Francais site is very specific in giving the 1960 date and none of the dated photos there date from significantly before then. http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/chars/9-archives/de-1945-1990/1255-1960-amx-13-chaffee Another French site agrees with this. AMX 13 avec tourelle de M24 Chaffee: En 1957, pour remplacer les chars M24 Chaffee très usés, l'armée française envisage de monter une tourelle de M24 sur le châssis de l'AMX 13. Un prototype est essayé puis 150 exemplaires sont fabriqués en 1960. Ils servent en Algérie notamment au 9e régiment de hussards, puis sont rapatriés en 1962. Les canons sont démontés et le bouclier est remplacé par un pare-brise pour placer un instructeur. L'engin reçoit alors le nom d'AMX 13 DTT et les chars sont versés à l'instruction. http://www.lalocodelolo.com/fr/blindeschars/705-135-amx-13-tourelle-chaffee-guerre-d-algerie-1954-1960-takom.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On the way Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 The Chars Francais site is very specific in giving the 1960 date and none of the dated photos there date from significantly before then. http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/chars/9-archives/de-1945-1990/1255-1960-amx-13-chaffee Another French site agrees with this. AMX 13 avec tourelle de M24 Chaffee: En 1957, pour remplacer les chars M24 Chaffee très usés, l'armée française envisage de monter une tourelle de M24 sur le châssis de l'AMX 13. Un prototype est essayé puis 150 exemplaires sont fabriqués en 1960. Ils servent en Algérie notamment au 9e régiment de hussards, puis sont rapatriés en 1962. Les canons sont démontés et le bouclier est remplacé par un pare-brise pour placer un instructeur. L'engin reçoit alors le nom d'AMX 13 DTT et les chars sont versés à l'instruction. http://www.lalocodelolo.com/fr/blindeschars/705-135-amx-13-tourelle-chaffee-guerre-d-algerie-1954-1960-takom.html I don't read French, but you are saying at the height of AMX-13 production in 1960, they mated Chaffee turrets to AMX hulls? WOnder why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 The Chars Francais site is very specific in giving the 1960 date and none of the dated photos there date from significantly before then. http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/chars/9-archives/de-1945-1990/1255-1960-amx-13-chaffee Another French site agrees with this. AMX 13 avec tourelle de M24 Chaffee: En 1957, pour remplacer les chars M24 Chaffee très usés, l'armée française envisage de monter une tourelle de M24 sur le châssis de l'AMX 13. Un prototype est essayé puis 150 exemplaires sont fabriqués en 1960. Ils servent en Algérie notamment au 9e régiment de hussards, puis sont rapatriés en 1962. Les canons sont démontés et le bouclier est remplacé par un pare-brise pour placer un instructeur. L'engin reçoit alors le nom d'AMX 13 DTT et les chars sont versés à l'instruction. http://www.lalocodelolo.com/fr/blindeschars/705-135-amx-13-tourelle-chaffee-guerre-d-algerie-1954-1960-takom.html I don't read French, but you are saying at the height of AMX-13 production in 1960, they mated Chaffee turrets to AMX hulls? WOnder why. See Panzerman's post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) The Chars Francais site is very specific in giving the 1960 date and none of the dated photos there date from significantly before then. http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/chars/9-archives/de-1945-1990/1255-1960-amx-13-chaffee Another French site agrees with this. AMX 13 avec tourelle de M24 Chaffee: En 1957, pour remplacer les chars M24 Chaffee très usés, l'armée française envisage de monter une tourelle de M24 sur le châssis de l'AMX 13. Un prototype est essayé puis 150 exemplaires sont fabriqués en 1960. Ils servent en Algérie notamment au 9e régiment de hussards, puis sont rapatriés en 1962. Les canons sont démontés et le bouclier est remplacé par un pare-brise pour placer un instructeur. L'engin reçoit alors le nom d'AMX 13 DTT et les chars sont versés à l'instruction. http://www.lalocodelolo.com/fr/blindeschars/705-135-amx-13-tourelle-chaffee-guerre-d-algerie-1954-1960-takom.html I don't read French, but you are saying at the height of AMX-13 production in 1960, they mated Chaffee turrets to AMX hulls? WOnder why. Loose translation from google: AMX 13 with M24 Chaffee turret: In 1957, in order to replace the heavily used M24 Chaffee tanks, the French army plans to mount an M24 turret on the AMX 13 chassis. A prototype is tried and then 150 units are manufactured. 1960. They serve in Algeria in particular the 9th regiment of hussars, then are repatriated in 1962. The guns are disassembled and the shield is replaced by a windshield to place an instructor. The craft then receives the name of AMX 13 DTT and the tanks are paid to the instruction. The fact they served in Algeria, where there would be little armoured opposition, as has previously been mentioned in this thread, may give some clues. Why need a tank killer gun when you are not fighting tanks? Also the AMX-13 turret that had autoloader, meaning that six rounds could be fired before the crew had to get out and reload. That is great against the armoured hordes from the east when the vehicle is acting essentially as a tank destroyer and will pull back into cover to relaod, but in a guerilla warfare situation in North Africa this is just asking for sniper fire. I have not been able to ascertain the round stowage of the M-24 turret, but there is a good chance it would be greater than six. Correction - from the Chieftain - no turret stowage for ready rounds, all rounds being in bins on the floor, even so, this stowage is better than firing six and having to get out. Whilst I do not try to argue that the AMX-13's 75mm gun was a copy of the Panther's KwK-42/70, the AMX-13 ammunition would have to have been bigger, and more expensive, than the Chaffee's 75mm gun's ammunition (which has also been alluded to in this thread). The M24 turret was also designed for a crew of three, in comparison to the AMX-13 two man turret. Once again, where you are not fighting as a tank destroyer, the extra crew member would be useful for the type of fighting in Algeria, camp duties, pickets and maintenance. Last point: AMX-13 had a muzzle brake, great for kicking up dust in Algeria and obscuring the aiming of the next round. No brake on the Chaffee Edited September 1, 2018 by DougRichards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inhapi Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) Interesting treat. i always tought these were for the export market. For the reasons given here, for small armies more involved in "policing" than fighting tanks the M24 turret might be an attractive option over the autoloader/TD type turret. Edited September 3, 2018 by Inhapi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 And yes, you can get a model of it: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/996975-takom-2063-amx-13-chaffee-turret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 And yes, you can get a model of it: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/996975-takom-2063-amx-13-chaffee-turret Cute! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I believe the M24 was airportable in French service. There is at least one surviving wreck of an M24 lying in the Dien Bien Phu battlefield, where it had been flown in, the turret remounted, and used in combat till it was knocked out. Complete speculation on my part, but maybe it fit in a Nord Nordatlas easier than an AMX13 proper? Just a thought like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolas93TS Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 French re-assembling the M24 at Muong Thanh Airport in 1954. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Picture didnt come through Nikolas, and you repost that please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendist Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Nope. Maybe my adblocker is killing it somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 This doesnt seem to be the same one I saw on the Discover Channel Programme (which actually featured the commander of the lost tank) or maybe they moved it to turn it into a memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Peter Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Nikolas's picture should be http://ftr.wot-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/M2402.jpgand it is 403 Forbidden to me - membership required at ftr.wot-news.com? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Well if you can figure out a way to put it up, please. Im curious to see how easy they found it to refit the turret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old ROF Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Think this might be the original article mentioned showing various pictures. http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/05/06/m24-chaffee-at-dien-bien-phu/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 And yes, you can get a model of it: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/996975-takom-2063-amx-13-chaffee-turret Cute! Separate links tracks are not cute! The new Tamiya AMX-30 has one piece tracks, as did the old Heller kit. It may be just possible, given the connections between Tamiya and Italeri, that Tamiya may produce the AMX-13 with the M-24 turret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 The model's track links are separate, as in you have to assemble 1/35 tracks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Think this might be the original article mentioned showing various pictures. http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/05/06/m24-chaffee-at-dien-bien-phu/ The second one pictured was in the Discovery channel programme. Good find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 The model's track links are separate, as in you have to assemble 1/35 tracks? Unfortunately yes........ seehttp://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/masterclub/mtl35240.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Werb Posted September 5, 2018 Author Share Posted September 5, 2018 The model's track links are separate, as in you have to assemble 1/35 tracks? Unfortunately yes........ seehttp://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/masterclub/mtl35240.html Those tracks look brilliant. Only half an hour to assemble 50 links too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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