New Life For The 105 How?

[shep854]

[shep854]

Article from Guns.com:

https://www.guns.com/2018/08/16/humvee-howitzer/

[FALightFighter]

There's no reason except institutional inertia that we haven't had a similar capability since the mid-90s!

[seahawk]

One has to wonder why that is not purchased in big numbers. Affordable, light and mobile indirect fire support.

[Mighty_Zuk]

A crew of 2 is very good, but it's a limited niche for special forces only. Actually, I don't really see how it's different from existing 120mm mortars that also enjoy from a good supply of guided munitions, and can be mounted on chassis that are just as light and just as lightly-crewed.

 

EDIT: A single word.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Mighty_Zuk

[Josh]

I agree with Zuk, I'd go with the 120mm mortar platform over this. I think there is a soft recoil version of that mounted on a hummer as well; certainly the Kurds have been seen with the 82mm version.

[lastdingo]

http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2013/08/soft-recoil-artillery-and-electronics.html

 

I had since claimed to my face that the soft recoil timing issues have been solved.

[DB]

As the barrel on this moves forward prior to firing, it appears to be a working soft recoil design, yes?

 

What sort of range do you get with the 120mm mortar?

[JWB]

As the barrel on this moves forward prior to firing, it appears to be a working soft recoil design, yes?

 

What sort of range do you get with the 120mm mortar?

7.2 km.

[bojan]

More with French and Russian rifled mortars.

[Colin]

Howitzer 105mm C1-2 = 11.5km Charge 7. C3=13km charge 7

[DB]

So there us a range advantage for this system over the mortar. Presumably the mortar has a greater throw weight. Always an interesting tradeoff.

Edited August 17, 2018 by DB

[lastdingo]

No, the real trade-off is that the mrotar has a shorter minimum high angle fire distance. A howitzer cannot engage with near-vertically descending munitions at 400 m.

 

120 mm mortar bombs weigh about the same as 105 mm howitzer shells, often times even less.

The reputation for higher 120 mm effect compared to 105 mm comes from a misunderstanding of the calibre difference and from the often times better angle of descent of the mortar bombs.

The angle influences the fragmentation pattern, and the higher terminal velocity of the 105 mm makes this factor even more important than ti would be in a comparison between 120 mm descending at good angle and 120 mm decending at poor angle.

 

 

A well-designed howitzer is all-round superior to a 120 mm mortar - especially in shot dispersion and range. Fin-stabilised slip ring 105 mm bombs could be used to emulate mortars at short ranges, eliminating the last relevant mortar advantages.

The traditional howitzer disadvantgae of greater weight and cost becomes ever less significant the more elaborate the mortar designs become (recoil mitigation for SP use, auto loader etc.).

[DB]

So, not "no". It does have a range advantage. Your extensive post says that the range advantage is not the most important thing, but definitely not "no".

 

In your insistence on being more correct than the rest of the internet, you continue to demonstrate that you're a horse's arse.

[bojan]

120mm 2B16 Nona-K, fires 120mm rifled mortar bombs + own ammo with 12.8km range, 1200kg.

You know you want one

Edited August 17, 2018 by bojan

[lastdingo]

So, not "no". It does have a range advantage. Your extensive post says that the range advantage is not the most important thing, but definitely not "no".

 

In your insistence on being more correct than the rest of the internet, you continue to demonstrate that you're a horse's arse.

 

Seriously, read again what I replied to. I replied to the tradeoff thing, which was mentioned last before I replied.

Your idea was throw weight traded for range, and I mentioned that there's no real throw weight advantage to 120 mm.

 

Text comprehension FTW.

[KV7]

120mm 2B16 Nona-K, fires 120mm rifled mortar bombs + own ammo with 12.8km range, 1200kg.

You know you want one

Is 12.8 km the range for the RAP, or 12km for HE etc. and the RAP is even better ?

Edited August 17, 2018 by KV7

[shep854]

Given the current acceptance of 120mm mortars, will there be a place for this system, or is it a nice experiment?

[lastdingo]

Given the current acceptance of 120mm mortars, will there be a place for this system, or is it a nice experiment?

 

Additionally, there are the issues that NATO officially moved away from 105 mm arty and there's thus hardly any fashionable "smart" munition for 105 mm except screw-on course correcting fuses.

 

120 mm seems to be well-established, but barrels and munitions tock seem to be long in the tooth in many if not most Western countries, so I'm not sure how important this particular technological lock-in really is. (There are apparently few of the new 120 mm IR-ILLUM and non-HC/non-WP 'less health hazard' SMK bombs in stocks yet, and many DPICM cargo bombs were destroyed.)

[shep854]

It could be useful for the US Marines, since they seemed to find their unique system impractical.

[lastdingo]

Which unique system? The French rifled mortar?

 

The Marines have a weird history of experimenting with fire support weapons (see the HowTar, which was little different from a WW2 M3 howitzer, but hyped in United States Marketing Corps style during the 60's). They never scored a single real advantage over U.S.Army fire support weapons, ever (the SMAW's munition weight is atrocious).

[bojan]

2B16 Nona-K was made for mountain units, since they might need low or even negative elevation capability.

[Panzermann]

 

Given the current acceptance of 120mm mortars, will there be a place for this system, or is it a nice experiment?

Additionally, there are the issues that NATO officially moved away from 105 mm arty and there's thus hardly any fashionable "smart" munition for 105 mm except screw-on course correcting fuses.

 

 

[citation needed] for a NATO official move away from 105.

 

Yes, most NATO armies standardized on the one size fits all 155 and 120 mm, but that was mostly driven by budget and peace dividend. But the light gun is still in service, as is the french LG1. And Denel has the G7 for sale for which IIRC in autumn last year a contract for further development for less weight and even longer range has been signed.

 

120 mm seems to be well-established, but barrels and munitions tock seem to be long in the tooth in many if not most Western countries, so I'm not sure how important this particular technological lock-in really is. (There are apparently few of the new 120 mm IR-ILLUM and non-HC/non-WP 'less health hazard' SMK bombs in stocks yet, and many DPICM cargo bombs were destroyed.)

 

Mortars have been neglected. Kind of the other red-headed stepshild (after AAA). Maybe the powerpoint rangers from the air forces are just better.

[shep854]

"Which unique system? The French rifled mortar?"--LastDingo

Yep. Perhaps, 'distinct' would have been a better word to distinguish it from the US Army mortar

[Josh]

 

So, not "no". It does have a range advantage. Your extensive post says that the range advantage is not the most important thing, but definitely not "no".

 

In your insistence on being more correct than the rest of the internet, you continue to demonstrate that you're a horse's arse.

Seriously, read again what I replied to. I replied to the tradeoff thing, which was mentioned last before I replied.

Your idea was throw weight traded for range, and I mentioned that there's no real throw weight advantage to 120 mm.

 

Text comprehension FTW.

 

Mortars generally have a RoF advantage as well, and the ammunition tends to less bulky. So in terms of throw weight per unit of time, as well as total stored rounds, there are probably still advantages to 120mm.

 

The 105mm clearly gets the advantage in range. I suspect there might also be some advantages to how widely produced the family of 105mm NATO ammo is, as well as variety of projectiles compared to most flavors of mortar rounds.

 

I suspect it comes down to what type of combat you expect your unit to engage in and what the firing platforms role is to be in that combat. Just about any organization out there attaches both howitzers and mortars to their combined arms units, be they airborne infantry or MBT armor.