More Chieftain's Hatchiness

[Erik2]

I thought that overmatching mattered way more.

Aren't there German estimates about the distances that their gun can penetrate enemy tank's frontal armor, which are way off from reality because people didn't understand overmatching during WW2?

I recall them saying that (according to calculcations) the Tiger should only be able to penetrate the Sherman's armor when it's standing at a slight angle at like a few hundreds of meters, while in reality the crews reported that they could easily knock out Shermans from over a thousand or so. Simply because of overmatching.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Erik2

[bojan]

2 hours ago, Erik2 said:

I thought that overmatching mattered way more.

It does matter, but practical multipliers for slope are also way larger than theoretical.

[Colin]

Plus a tank is likley not to be on perfectly level ground so the real slope at the time of impact could significantly +/- of the measurable armour.

[Manic Moran]

The interesting bit is that crews on both sides complained more about the guns than about the armor. The response from meeting KVs was "Give us a few tank guns that can kill them" not "we need more armor to stop being killed". Similar for most of the Americans.

[Erik2]

15 hours ago, Manic Moran said:

The interesting bit is that crews on both sides complained more about the guns than about the armor. The response from meeting KVs was "Give us a few tank guns that can kill them" not "we need more armor to stop being killed". Similar for most of the Americans.

What was the general opinion of the Sherman by its users throughout the war?

I think you've shown reports in your videos about how its users considered it the finest medium tank in the world right up to the end of WW2. At the same time, I remember that in Jentz's book about the Panther he shows lots of snippets from reports from western Allied crews complaining seemingly really bitterly about the, in their view, inferiority of their tanks to German tanks, particularly comparing the Sherman to the Panther - one snippet saying the Sherman is "only good for parades".

Were such views a minority?

[Rick]

Has the Chieftain's Hatch covered the M113 or the L.V.T.P.7 yet? 

[Manic Moran]

21 hours ago, Rick said:

Has the Chieftain's Hatch covered the M113 or the L.V.T.P.7 yet? 

No, for whatever reason I know not (Just haven't really gotten around to a box on tracks yet, I guess), and no, as I've no idea where I would even find one available to film which the Marines aren't still using.

[Manic Moran]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:38 AM, Erik2 said:

What was the general opinion of the Sherman by its users throughout the war?

I think you've shown reports in your videos about how its users considered it the finest medium tank in the world right up to the end of WW2. At the same time, I remember that in Jentz's book about the Panther he shows lots of snippets from reports from western Allied crews complaining seemingly really bitterly about the, in their view, inferiority of their tanks to German tanks, particularly comparing the Sherman to the Panther - one snippet saying the Sherman is "only good for parades".

Were such views a minority?

Not incompatible with each other, actually.

The Americans felt undergunned, in 1944, especially against Panther, and especially in the Northern flank where maneuver was more difficult (compared to the broken-field running of Lorraine). What they wanted was a gun which could knock out Panther at ranges that Panther could knock them out. That's a separate issue to the amount of armor on Sherman which, face it, there was basically no amount of armor you could reasonably put onto a Sherman to make it invulnerable to the L70 whilst maintaining its mobility.

Of course, in the end, they ended up with a gun which could knock out Panthers at long ranges from the side, or from point blank range from the front. The bitterness then came from the fact that it couldn't knock out Panthers from the front at ranges that Panther could knock them out. Though in practice, it turned out to be more a matter of a theoretical than actual disadvantage given that long-and-medium-range frontal tank duels were something of a rarity in practice. 

[RichTO90]

2 minutes ago, Manic Moran said:

Not incompatible with each other, actually.

The Americans felt undergunned, in 1944, especially against Panther, and especially in the Northern flank where maneuver was more difficult (compared to the broken-field running of Lorraine). What they wanted was a gun which could knock out Panther at ranges that Panther could knock them out. That's a separate issue to the amount of armor on Sherman which, face it, there was basically no amount of armor you could reasonably put onto a Sherman to make it invulnerable to the L70 whilst maintaining its mobility.

Of course, in the end, they ended up with a gun which could knock out Panthers at long ranges from the side, or from point blank range from the front. The bitterness then came from the fact that it couldn't knock out Panthers from the front at ranges that Panther could knock them out. Though in practice, it turned out to be more a matter of a theoretical than actual disadvantage given that long-and-medium-range frontal tank duels were something of a rarity in practice. 

Yep. I devoted an entire chapter in American Thunder on the changing perceptions of American tankers on the relative merits of the Medium Tank M4 to the German tanks. Fall 1944 pretty much was the tipping point of frustration.  But you got to wait until January 2024 for the release - sorry, it was supposed to be out in December.

[sunday]

22 minutes ago, Manic Moran said:

No, for whatever reason I know not (Just haven't really gotten around to a box on tracks yet, I guess), and no, as I've no idea where I would even find one available to film which the Marines aren't still using.

There is one in a Korean museum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Memorial_of_Korea

Does not look like a runner, however:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-landing-vehicle-tracked-lvt-p7-usa-war-memorial-of-korea-jeonjaeng-94278627.html

[Tim Sielbeck]

 

[nitflegal]

On 7/2/2023 at 5:41 PM, RichTO90 said:

Yep. I devoted an entire chapter in American Thunder on the changing perceptions of American tankers on the relative merits of the Medium Tank M4 to the German tanks. Fall 1944 pretty much was the tipping point of frustration.  But you got to wait until January 2024 for the release - sorry, it was supposed to be out in December.

You sir are a tease!  But I'm still buying your book . .

[shep854]

14 hours ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

 

It looks like a TC in full gear would indeed be a hatch plug...

[Renegade334]

 

[shep854]

Nice reviews! The only movie I've watched was 'T-34', which I enjoyed immensely.

ANOTHER purpose of the tall pintle mount behind the turret was so the TC could hunker down in his position and deliver high-angle fire behind the tank.  There's an Army training movie on armor road movement that shows this as a reaction to an air attack.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

far be it for me to correct one of our own but surely we can all agree that the tank scene from Band of Brothers was an 11 out of ten!!

[Inhapi]

SO I learned that every tanker secretly wants to be Odball.....

[R011]

1 hour ago, Inhapi said:

SO I learned that every tanker secretly wants to be Odball.....

Either that or the German tank commander with the cool black designer uniform and the even cooler tank.

[Renegade334]

 

[Markus Becker]

Things you always wanted to know but never dared to ask?

 

 

[shep854]

HOT TAKE!!

Nick expounds on the T-14:

 

[Coldsteel]

Mmmmm ... Drama! 🍿

[Walter_Sobchak]

5 hours ago, shep854 said:

HOT TAKE!!

Nick expounds on the T-14:

 

I have followed a bit of this drama and I think The Chieftain struck the right tone here.  If anything, I think he was perhaps too fair to Lazerpig.  I find Lazerpig's channel to be an unappealing mix of sarcasm, meme humor and sloppy research.  Based on his response to the Chieftains video, he is not unlike a US WWII tank destroyer in that he can dish it out but seems unable to take it.

[bojan]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:01 AM, Walter_Sobchak said:

...If anything, I think he was perhaps too fair to Lazerpig.

Yes, through I think he tried to avoid being dragged in that flame war.

Quote

 I find Lazerpig's channel to be an unappealing mix of sarcasm, meme humor and sloppy research.

Extremely sloppy research. His T-34 video is 95% garbage level, repeating myths that are known to be false since... idk, 1990s? He also automatically rejects majority of the Russian sources, because "they are biased". That is not a good research there. And I disagree with Nick about presentation style being irrelevant, it is very relevant, as it shows emotional maturity of the person, and that emotional maturity also results in being objective when it comes to research.

Quote

  Based on his response to the Chieftains video, he is not unlike a US WWII tank destroyer in that he can dish it out but seems unable to take it.

He is a drama queen that makes "scandalous" videos for other drama queens with intend of profiting of his "fame", nothing more, nothing less. Female version of that is fetish onlyfans page.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by bojan

[Colin]

and laserpig took exception to Nick video comments on style.