More Chieftain's Hatchiness

[shep854]

 

[DKTanker]

He's also featured in this video from the WW2 Channel.

 

[shep854]

Thanks, DK.  I haven't seen that one; I was confusing it with his Soviet Tank Doctrine video.

[DKTanker]

 

[bojan]

KV's TC did not double-duty as a loader, rear-gunner was a loader. Turret crew layout was the same as with T-28 (logical since both were LKZ designed).

TC's problem was lack of hatch, limited angle that his PTK periscopic sight covered and atrocious quality of his other two vision devices (periscope and direct vision slit).

Optic quality was actually good for gunsights, and gunsight design was good with reticle that could be used for range estimation. However observation periscopes (top-sides of turret, driver), which were made with polished stainless steel instead of glass (in order to be more resistant) and armored glass (driver, sides of turret) which had blue-greenish tint, reduced ability to see in bad light conditions considerably and warped a picture due the unevenness.

 

[Manic Moran]

If I may quote Zaloga/Kinnear in their book.

"As well as loading the main gun, the commander was responsible for feeding the coaxial MG. His tasks were made ludicrously complex by the poor ammunition layout [snip] This clutter was the more bothersom as the assistant driver/mechanic was positioned closed behind the commander/loader when the gun was in operation. Normally he sat on a pad suspended from the turret rack immediately behind the gun, but when the gun was in use the deflector and atached shell casing bin were folded up, filling this space. This seat was moved behind the commander; unsurprisingly, some KV tankers preferred only a four-man crew.

The principle functions of the assistant driver were to relieve the driver when he became exhausted using the demanding  clutch/brake steering system, and to take care of routine maintenance when halted. On the move he was usually assigned to the roof mounted anti-aircraft DT MG located on the hatch ring, but the commander would often claim this position to get a better view. During combat he was assigned to the rear turret MG to keep infantry off the tank."

The KV's manual also designates the third crewman as "junior driver/mechanic". He apparently also has automotive duties in operation such as opening valves which are out of reach of the driver.

According to Doyle/Jentz's Beute Panzerkampfwagen Panzer Tracts, the Germans rated the KV-1's 5th man as optional, the only Russian tank with an optional man. No reason given, though.

The Google Translate of this Russian description of the British tests also rates the KV's TC as doing double-duty.

https://warspot.ru/16070-pervyy-marshal-na-zarubezhnyh-gastrolyah

Postnikov also goes with the description as the TC doing double-duty, but in fairness, states that the TC swapped with the rear gunner more often (in contrast with Zaloga/Kinnear), which would allow the third man to load. The problems of attempting to fight closed-hatch, though, with the TC only able to look to the rear, would remain, so it's not much of an improvement. Later he observes the improvement in layout of the KV-1S and how the TC's 'freed from loader duty'.

It doesn't seem that an argument that the KV's crew layout was poor is unsupportable. I'm not sure quite how similar one would state that the layout of T-28 and KV's turrets are: The former had (after early production) two hatches further forward vs a single at the rear, and a basket for folks to move around on vs a hull floor. Neary 40 rounds in T-28's basket, vs KV's 10 rounds on the turret walls. There's quite a few differences here.

 

[bojan]

Re: T-28/KV-1 - my point was that crew duties were same, 3rd men being also being junior driver/mechanic.

However Kolomiets states in his book about Leningrad made KV-1 (available in Russian, published by Wargaming's Tactical Press about 8-10 years ago) that crew duties were gunner left of the main gun, loader behind him and TC right of the gun.

If you have contact with Yuri Pasholok I would suggest you contact him, as he did a lot of archive research on the KVs and will probably know definite answer.

 

Unfortunately Zaloga, while decent for a "western" literature misses a lot of fine details, especially in his earlier work and can not be considered a definite source.

Edited September 16, 2020 by bojan

[Manic Moran]

I did. Yuri responded with a screenshot of the manual.

Upon my direct question, he says was of the opinion that the third man could reach the ammunition, but did not seem to offer any opinion as to actual practice.

[bojan]

So issue remains muddy.

[Ssnake]

Three-man trip to Kubinka, practical loading experiment. Cue Mythbusters title melody.

[bojan]

More info... This is from the 1941. manual

http://pro-tank.ru/images/stories/2-mirovaya/sssr/kv-1_25.jpg

http://pro-tank.ru/bronetehnika-sssr/tyagelie-tanki/115-kv-1

Quote

1. По команде (сигналу) "К машинам" экипаж выстраивается впереди танка, лицом в поле, в одну шеренгу, на один шаг впереди гусениц, в следующем порядке: командир танка - КТ, командир орудия (стреляющий) - КО, механик-водитель младший (заряжающий) - М, механик-водитель старший - МВ, радиотелеграфист - Р...

Upon a command "To the machines" crew gethers in front of the tank, face toward field in the same line, one step in front of tracks in the following order - tank commander - TK, gun commander (gunner) - KO, younger mechanic-driver (loader) - M, senior mechanic-driver - MB, radio-telegraphist - P...

 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by bojan

[Manic Moran]

Umm.

OK, that's weird.

Look onwards to #4, where he is referred to as "Motorist" (engineer?), not "Loader."

"4. По команде (сигналу) "К машинам" выход из танка производится в следующем порядке: через передний люк первым выходит радиотелеграфист, за ним механик-водитель старший, который закрывает люк; через люк башни первым выходит механик-водитель младший (моторист) и становится впереди танка, за ним выходит командир танка, затем командир орудия, который закрывает люк башни.

The scan of the manual uses both.

This very well might only be resolved by getting into a KV. 

Either way, it seems unlikely that multiple sources talking about the issues of crew configuration (even if one of them is Zaloga) is entirely unfounded. Especially since we are sure that the TC can either have  his optics or a hatch.

[Wiedzmin]

 

David Young photos of Aberdeen KV-1

[Stuart Galbraith]

Bovington really ought to get theirs running again.

[Wiedzmin]

 

Bovington btw have nice collection of KV1 photos, which you can buy from them...

[bojan]

IIRC ready ammo racks were on the rear left and rear right turret wall? Certainly it looks so on the pics of the Aberdeen KV-1... That would exclude use of TC as a loader, unless there was no 3rd person in turret, and I have never seen period photo of the KV-1 crew with less than 5 men (which is very far from the proof, but still...).

TC for sure had to service MG, as he had to do in T-28 (IIRC in T-28 he also fired MG as it was not coax to the gun, but independently mounted), as the above photo shows clearly locations of the MG discs in front of his periscope.

TC was certainly sub-optimally placed, but that is not the same as having to double as a loader, unless we are talking about loading from hull ammo racks, in which case he might have been the person with the best access to it. But that would not be an issue with KV-1 only. Certainly, in T-55 loader is not supposed to load from all ammo racks unless it was emergency, but the crew was supposed to move ammo to more accessible ones in the pause of fighting. Maybe story of the TC doubling as a loader comes from him being responsible for moving ammo from some of hull ammo racks to a ready racks?

Edited September 17, 2020 by bojan

[Wiedzmin]

52 minutes ago, bojan said:

IIRC ready ammo racks were on the rear left and rear right turret wall?

[Gavin-Phillips]

Being very much a fan of the KV-series in general, I love it when these are being discussed (and really enjoyed the videos as well).

I do have Neil Stokes's book KV: Technical History and Variants.  About the only thing it seems to be lacking is interior pictures of a KV-2's turret!  I can only hope some day that some of those turn up and are made available online.  

Does anyone know what the current status of the KV-1 (KV-1c with cast turret?) actually is?  Does it still run?

[Manic Moran]

Grabbing a hold of the round, I don't think is the issue as much as shoving it into the breech. Jagdpanzer 38t had a similar problem, it would make more sense operationally for the TC to be where the loader is, but what with the recoil guard, reaching forward and shoving the round up the tube without the ability to leverage from the side was... difficult. At the very least, the TC could perhaps be a loader's assistant, finishing the job with the final push, but, again, that wasn't the route the Germans took and may not be desireable for the Soviets either.

[bojan]

Soviet 76mm ammo was however considerably smaller than German 7.5cm.

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 9/17/2020 at 2:14 PM, Wiedzmin said:

 

Bovington btw have nice collection of KV1 photos, which you can buy from them...

Luvverly.

Did the British Army do a report on it, as they did for the Tiger, and Ive a vague recollection, for the T34/76?

[Wiedzmin]

23 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Did the British Army do a report on it, as they did for the Tiger, and Ive a vague recollection, for the T34/76?

yes, i think i shared link here long time ago, but there is not one report for sure

[Mikel2]

Is the APG evaluation report on the KV-1 available online? 

[Markus Becker]

Nick meets Harry Yeide on the Twitch channel of World if Tanks NA. 24th, 18 to 20 hours CDT*. 

 

https://m.facebook.com/events/985213235277872?ref=content_filter

 

* Balls, that's 0100 to 0300 hours in my place. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Markus Becker

[RETAC21]

4 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Nick meets Harry Yeide on the Twitch channel of World if Tanks NA. 24th, 18 to 20 hours CDT*. 

 

https://m.facebook.com/events/985213235277872?ref=content_filter

 

* Balls, that's 0100 to 0300 hours in my place. 

Sleep is optional