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I have fired one, really nice with one exception - it was calibrated for a round-nose ammo. While it was accurate enough with spitzer, spitzer produced much more muzzle blast (especially noticeable in the dusk conditions) than round nosed.

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The Yugoslavs converted M95s to 8mm Mauser fed with stripper clips. A Mannlicher style en bloc clip in 7x57mm would require a proprietary bidirectional clip a la Commission Mauser. Thus I propose a Steyr-Mauser in 7x57mm using the straight pull bolt of the M95 combined with the double stack Mauser internal box magazine with a standardized 20" Stutzen barrel.

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I like your idea Simon. However, if you went to a Lee style detachable 10 rounder you could reload with a stripper clip before your mag was empty. It would also leave the door open to using larger capacity detachable magazines to reload. I read somewhere that the M95 had a weak extractor that was prone to breakage - you might want to sort that out.

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Detachable adds complication of people losing mags.

 

Only 95s that had weak extractor were Yugoslavian M.95M and M.95/24. But that weakness was only a matter if you were single loading by pushing a round into the chamber, extractor would snap as it jumped over the rim.

PS. There was also rare as hens teeth M1910 artillery carbine (only 200 were delivered):

Edited by bojan
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I like your idea Simon. However, if you went to a Lee style detachable 10 rounder you could reload with a stripper clip before your mag was empty. It would also leave the door open to using larger capacity detachable magazines to reload. I read somewhere that the M95 had a weak extractor that was prone to breakage - you might want to sort that out.

 

The ten round magazine seems like a good idea, but in reality you end up having only a first volley of ten and then reloads of five, because taking the time to push in five twice takes longer effectively because of the higher reisitence in the magazine than just pushing in five and then later when empty five again. There are very good reasons that most went with just five. There are the odd swiss with six or the french berthier with either three or five. Okay, most other rifles were Mausers. ;)

 

The original British idea seems to have been to carry magazines for reloads for the Lee rifles, but that went out the window, when it was found that the magazines are too hard to produce in large numbers and they get lost. hence the little chains on some Lees. And not to forget that the designated successor the P13 and P14 rifles went with five round Mauser style stripper clips. So even the British Army thought, that the ten round magazine falls under "it ssemed like a good idea at the time", but turned out to not be. It wasn't teeribly bad, but not great either considering the effort. Stripper clips are so much cheaper and fixed magazines are more reliable..

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The Yugoslavs converted M95s to 8mm Mauser fed with stripper clips. A Mannlicher style en bloc clip in 7x57mm would require a proprietary bidirectional clip a la Commission Mauser. Thus I propose a Steyr-Mauser in 7x57mm using the straight pull bolt of the M95 combined with the double stack Mauser internal box magazine with a standardized 20" Stutzen barrel.

 

Why not rotary Schönauer style magazines? When you buy Steyr, go all the way.

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Go Krag and top it off whenever you need. :ninja:

Just say no to the drugs :)

 

Those fjord mosses are really serious stuff. ^_^

 

 

 

 

 

Cause it was maintenance nightmare.

 

Good point. I have only ssen them in hunting rifles and they were without problem, but being carried around from the car to the high stand is dfferent from conscripts mistreating their rifes or actual warfare. (I think actions derived from the Mannlicher-Schönauer are still manufactured)

 

 

The Krag pattern makes for a good hunting rifle too I have always thought. Easy to load with a scope mounted over the action. But handling single cartridges is a nightmare in battle.

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We are not a perenially broke country like Greece and cannot afford such expensive rifles lime the Schonauer.

 

The Cavalry may elect to abstain from the initial tranches of the Mannlicher-Mauser Model 1908 if they feel that it does not suit them.

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I have honestly never heard of mags falling out unexpectedly being a problem with the Lee Enfield. The catch is well protected and takes deliberate effort to operate. Unlike the original arrangement on the L85A1...

 

As an aside, I think the US navy did issue very early Lees with multiple detachable magazines and webbing to carry them. That was a surprise to me!

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I have honestly never heard of mags falling out unexpectedly being a problem with the Lee Enfield. The catch is well protected and takes deliberate effort to operate. Unlike the original arrangement on the L85A1...

 

As an aside, I think the US navy did issue very early Lees with multiple detachable magazines and webbing to carry them. That was a surprise to me!

 

No not falling out of the rifle. Just getting lost by soldiers being soldiers. And there were never enough magazines to go through with actually changing magazines to reload. Hence the addition of the bridge with the guides for a stripper clip in the SMLE Mark 1 before the war already.

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...The Cavalry may elect to abstain from the initial tranches of the Mannlicher-Mauser Model 1908 if they feel that it does not suit them.

Cavalry will have to learn to take it and shut up, since it is way less important than other branches. :P

They can get Mannlicher style carbine, with a nose cap if they don't find standard short rifle to their liking***. Cavalry carbine (if adopted) is just a shorter variant of the regular rifle. Artillery and infantry get same short rifle. Possibly with L-E/Mannlicher style nose cap, to prevent damage to the barrel crown in field.

 

Now, a machinegun - Maxim? All the alternates are so-so, Hotchkiss was as reliable as Maxim, but feed-strips are no good being too easily damaged. Maybe think about metallic belt, cloth belts and cold weather do not mix well. Maybe think about heavier barrel Maxim w/o water cooling for a certain roles...

***Cavalry can have Madsen however, as can certain "light" infantry units.

 

Rural gendarmerie gets single shot 7x57 - Peabody-Martini are impossible to to convert to a reasonable mag feed, so should be gone ASAP from a military.

Some of the other rifles can be converted to a magazine feed 7x57mm for a "if shit hits a fan" use or various rear area uses.

Edited by bojan
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Tankovia signs repeater rifle contract with Steyrwerke.

 

Tankovina, 8th June 1908

 

The Tankovian Ministry of War announced that it had entered into a contract with Österreichischen Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft of Steyr, Austria for the supply of an initial order of 3,000 Mannlicher-Mauser Model 1908 Standard Rifles in calibre 7x57mm along with accessories and fittings like bayonets and slings. This rifle was developed by Steyrwerke to meet Tankovian specifications and is based on the Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 in service with the Austro-Hungarian military.

 

At the same time, the War Ministry also announced that regional militias and police would have their mix of shoulder arms replaced by a standardized Reserve Rifle in the same 7x57mm calibre as the Model 1908 standard rifle. These will be rebuilt from existing stocks of Peabody-Martini rifles in service and storage. The work will be carried out by the Tankovia Arsenal in Novi Tankovina using components supplied by Steyrwerke. The Standard and Reserve Rifles will share the same barrel length, sights and fittings like cleaning rods and bayonets.

 

It also announced that the trials of machineguns are ongoing and samples had been procured in the new standard calibre for evaluation during the annual manoeuvres to be held later this year.

 

The Assistant Minister of War explained that the reequipping of the Tankovian military would necessarily have to take place over a period due to the substantial fiscal impact.

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This is the FEG 14.M trials rifle from 1914. It is exactly what the M1908 is, a straight pull Mannlicher with a Mauser internal magazine in 7x57mm. It has the muzzle cap which I dislike and a folding bayonet (which I also dislike).

 

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann14.htm

 

I see the 1908 as having M95 style furniture and muzzle bits.

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No folding bayo please, regular bayonet is way more useful for 1000 other things, including as improvised fighting knife. That said, we could easily adopt something like later Yugo M.12/24/40 bayonet/fighting dagger and have it be way more useful. Kinjal type was very popular fighting dagger in Balkans (Circassian influence). It is also "German style" w/o muzzle ring, so it minimizes impact on accuracy when fitted.

tumblr_oktw6hLjKR1sfltapo1_1280.jpg

Original M.12 fighting dagger:

tumblr_inline_oktwcbZQdQ1s7egj0_500.jpg

Muzzle cap is useful for cavalry if we go with short length rifle for them. If they have their own carbine, regular rifle can do without one.

Edited by bojan
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First of all C&Rsenal is an excellent channel. I can not recommend it enough.

 

I would like to go back to something Bojan said at the start: “You are describing Serbia. 1890.“

 

The country is not industrialized. That creates two problems. One, you can‘t make a modern rifle domestically for quite some time and two, you‘ll have problems getting the money to import them. Fun fact: Serbia got the money for their Mauser 71 from Austria-Hungary. As Othias explains in the Carcano episodes Italy was in a similar situation. They were not as industrialized as their rivals, so they designed a simple rifle they could mass produce with the industry they had. For that reason I prefer a good enough rifle that‘s affordable over the best one money can buy.

 

Caliber wise something in 6.5 to 7mm range is IMO the default choice in the years before the introcution of Spitzer bullets.

 

Machine guns? Schwarzlose 07. It’s a simpler design than the Maxim. Particularly with regard to the sealing of the water jacket

Edited by Markus Becker
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Problem with Carcano is that barrel life was only about 3000 rounds until at least mid-20s. I was one of the worst rated rifles in post ww1 tests*** here. Low barrel life means you can not train enough (or you can, but then you go into sliding economic scale that favors something better), which means your infantry will suck. It's action would also be marginal for 7x57mm probably (it certainly was for 7.9x57).

Realistically, Mauser was simplest rifle that could be produced and still be top notch. Mannlichers, even Romanian pattern turn-bolt are actually more complicated in a number of details. That was a real Mauser genius.

 

***Tests, and ratings:

 

Suitable (in order of preference):

Serbian 1910, German 98, and Austrian 1912 Mausers - main problem was length which was seen as trivial to solve
Romanian Mannlicher 1893 - length and rimmed ammo
Lee-Enfield - main problem - shortest sight base, not suitable for very high pressure ammo, rimmed ammo - while it got lowest score notes say all of those are good and that differences minor and not in favor of one or other in any significant way.
A-H Mannlicher 1895 - length and rimmed ammo

 

Partially suitable:
Mosin (best accuracy of the all tested, but nothing more to commend it)
Serbian 1899, Spanish 1893, Turkish 1890 and Mausers - lesser strength of action, somewhat marginal for 7.9x57mm which was already decided on as future cartridge
Berthier with 5 rounds - hard to convert to 7.9x57, long, rimmed ammo, weak action;

 

Not suitable
Berthier with 3 rounds - too little ammo, convertible to 5 round configuration however, weak action, hard to convert to 7.9x57
Carcano - barrel life only 3000 rounds, weak action, long, hard to convert to 7.9x57
Lebel - obsolete tube magazine, rimmed ammo, weak action, non-suitable for conversion to short rifle
8mm Kropatschek - same + very weak action
Vetterli (does not say which one, but I suspect 1915 conversion, since all other rifles were small bore smokeless) - nothing positive was found out.

Vetterlis were only ones to be scrapped (or possibly given/sold to Albania), and considering that Werndls and other single shots were kept it says a lot about it...

 

More on topic - Serbian tests before adoption of M.80 Mauser-Milovanovic included 29 various designs (with total of 92 different rifle configurations tested).

Tests before adoption of M.99 included two different Mauser designs, Mannlicher 1890 straight pull, Gew 88, Mannlicher 1892/93 turn-bolt, two versions of Krag (Norwegian and unknown one), Lebel 1886, Berthier 1892, Mosin, Remington (no idea which one), Winchester (also no idea), Carcano, Swiss G89, Lee-Enfield) plus two unknown rifles (one Belgian and one British), ditched in very early phase of tests.

Cartridges tested concluded that choice is between 6.5x55 Norwegian, 7x57 Mauser and 7.65x53 Mauser. In the end 7x57 was chosen as the rifles could be available fastest.

Edited by bojan
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