Tankovian Meta Thread

[R011]

We could start with used Italian boats if we can get them cheap and replace them in a few years with new boats.  I expect that like aircraft, anything we get now will be worn out and obsolete within a relatively short time.

[Markus Becker]

Sub 30 ton MTB are certainly not much of an investment. 

[EchoFiveMike]

On 9/16/2020 at 7:02 AM, bojan said:

Way too heavy and static. They are step above 155mm gun/203mm howitzer combo, equivalent to US 8" gun/240mm howitzer.

Then the 155mm/22cm M1928 guns seem a useful set, while significantly lighter, for coast defense and long range counterbattery. 

Getting into S-boats now makes a lot of sense, especially if diesel.  Torpedoes?  Italian 21in wet heater seem to be as good as anything available.  S/F....Ken M

Edited September 18, 2020 by EchoFiveMike

[Simon Tan]

S-boats really only appear in the early 30s.  The major suppliers of motor torpedo boats in 1920s are Italy and the UK. In all likelihood we will buy one each and decide they aren't terribly useful. Our relationship with Weimar Germany will almost certainly keep us informed about the activities in Lurssenwerft. The main decision we have to make is to go either with MAN or Daimler-Benz diesels. The Germans quickly found that the petrol engines were maintenance pigs compared to the diesels. We just use German wet heater torpedoes as it reduces integration and training issues.

The other 'German' project is submarines. More specifically the ones built by Crichton-Vulkan in Turku. Specifically the CV707 'factory' boat (Vesikko in Finnish service). Very small (250t)and all welded. The former lets us get our underwater feet wet and the latter a construction methodology the Germans tell us is the future. We take a second place option on the CV707 if the Finns decided not to take it up and order one in 1933 after we see it launched. And a second in 1934. 

 

[Simon Tan]

For heavy artillery, the Skoda vz28 22cm/15cm is the natural next level for us. The 22cm model has substantial throw weight and range advantage over the BL 8" howitzers. The latter are theoretically quicker into action until you factor in having to prepare the firing platform needed to manage recoil. The 15cm(149mm) variant has almost 24km range, substantially outranging anything else in our inventory.

It is therefore proposed to purchase 4 equipment sets, each with 22cm and 15cm barrels. The guns will be organized in peacetime into 2 batteries, each of 2 pieces. One battery will be 22cm howitzers, the other 15cm guns. Batteries will rotate roles on a regular (6 month) basis. 

Not sure about these as coast defence guns though. 

Most of our coastal defences are around Burgas Bay in the same places they are in reality. A battery in Chernomets and another in Krotirija as well as in Atiya around the base itself.

My first instinct is to have the same 10cm/50 K16s used on our sloops. 

[Markus Becker]

Boats with diesels don't become available until 1933(S6, 32 knots). S10 from 1935 could make 35. It looks like S6 was re engined. So for an early 30s boat the S2 class Bojan recommended is the best you can get. Unless you want to go with untested technology.

Now to the artillery. One the one hand Czechoslovakian is the logical way to go, on the other the 22cm gun is a beast with
14.7/22.7 tons weight. The 8"BL is handier(8.7 tons) but has a slightly shorter range of 11km instead of 14.

Both it and the 149mm long range cannon also become available in 1928 earliest. Given that the Great Depression comes around in late 1929 155mm GPF from US or French reserve stocks are also worth considering.

 

Ship names: 

24 class sloops: TMK Svoboda and Nezavisimost. 

 

[Simon Tan]

8" BL is rubbish without its firing platform. Dispersal is atrocious. Which is another load and takes a long time to emplace and has to be repositioned for significant changes in azimuth.

Mk VI has a short range, MkVII has poor barrel life and they aren't selling the MkVIIIs.

Americans are also not disposing of these in the 20s and early 30s.

It's the same with GPF in French and US service.

Best we can do post WW1 is some 21cm Morser 16.  "Schlanke Emmas" are in great demand.

 

 

[Markus Becker]

1 hour ago, Simon Tan said:

8Best we can do post WW1 is some 21cm Morser 16.  "Schlanke Emmas" are in great demand.

There you have your 8" gun! If it's good enough for Sweden until the 50s and Germany until 1942, why would Tankovia replace them ten years earlier?

"Must renew Mörser 16 again" 

 

PS: Same might go for 15cm/L40 Feldkanone I.R or 15cm Kanone 16 or even 17cm SK L/40 I.R.L. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Markus Becker

[bojan]

15cm K16 compares poorly with GPF. While somewhat lighter and longer ranged it had a box trail and no suspension, meaning it had to be towed very, very slowly over anything that was not good pawed road.

15/40 and 17/40 were lashups using naval guns, not that well suited for a land use, having slow rate of fire and needing a platform to be dug-in for any kind of accurate fire. See here:

[Markus Becker]

The carriage is the problem with all three guns, isn't it? Try new ones. The ex naval guns could be quick fixed in the CD role by putting them on Panama mounts.  

[Simon Tan]

Errrr....it's the early 20s. Our top military manufacturing is a boltie and a machine carbine. 

The problem is not just the carriages, it's the inadequate recuperating/recoiling stroke which leads to excessive transfer of momentum to the carriage which then has to displace. Hence the various platforms which are essentially designed to allow the guns to be returned to a repeatable index. 

Panama mounts are OK for split trail which tend to jump and not come off azimuth. See unavailability of GPF.

The Germans do replace the Morser 16 with the misnamed Morser 18, exactly because it does not meet their requirements. We only buy Morser16 because it is cheap, like a lot of our post-war shopping. Cheap makes it OK to be less than awesome if the alternative is nothing.

To keep things Skoda, the cunning plan is to buy the 15cm/50 K10s off the SMS Prinz Eugen from the French after they strip it. If we are very good, we can ensure that we can buy it at near scrap value. These are taken off the casemate mounts and have quite limited elevation.  But they will be cheap, and Skoda. The Italians would land these after scrapping their Tegethoff. It would appear they kept the casemate gun shield. This would be the ghetto approach.  Actually rebuilding it on a dedicated mount would probably significantly improve performance but would involve more expenditure of course. 

A similar operation with the Kaiserliche Marine is not possible after the tragic scuttlings in Scapa.

 

[Markus Becker]

36 minutes ago, Simon Tan said:

To keep things Skoda, the cunning plan is to buy the 15cm/50 K10s off the SMS Prinz Eugen from the French after they strip it.

Yes, there could be a lot of naval guns on the market when the mass scrapping of warships begins in the early 20s. 

 

36 minutes ago, Simon Tan said:

These are taken off the casemate mounts and have quite limited elevation.  But they will be cheap, and Skoda. The Italians would land these after scrapping their Tegethoff. It would appear they kept the casemate gun shield. This would be the ghetto approach.  Actually rebuilding it on a dedicated mount would probably significantly improve performance but would involve more expenditure of course. 

Ask the Czechoslovakians to design a new carriage, recoil system and so on. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Markus Becker

[EchoFiveMike]

I wonder if the Morser 16's can be bored/re-rifled to use the 22cm M28 projectiles, with appropriate charges?  They're not that much heavier than the 260-something lb 21cm anti concrete shells. Commonality of ammunition is always good.

For harbor defense, suitable turntables using simple springs to allow the entire gun to recoil can be permanently fixed into suitable locations, the guns can be towed into position and clamped down, creating a double acting recoil mechanism.  Batteries around Pomorie, Nessebar, Elenite and Emona to the north and Sozopol, Chernomorets and Dyuni to the south.  

I suppose it would be best to define the threat.  If that includes Goeben or the Ganguts, then something more substantial is warranted.  Inquire with the Americans for some of their 12" L45's from the Washington Treaty scrapped ships?  The UK for 12" or possibly even 13.5" guns in the same situation?  The ships sunk in Scapa will be salved sooner or later, perhaps sponsor that effort in return for choice picks?  Also the French have Imperator Aleksandr III interned in Bizerte and she may be scrapped to pay for her docking fees....

St Ivan Island also seems well suited for some batteries.  

The Americans have 200'ish 60pdr's and substantial stockpiles of ammunition with no plans for use beyond military memorials, they might sell cheaply. 

While talking to the Americans, there should definitely be inquiries to the Clark company about their Liftruc invention, this seems to be a true manpower saver.  S/F...Ken M

   

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by EchoFiveMike

[Rick]

What is this navy for? Coast protection or ship escort to and from ports?

[Markus Becker]

A recommendation for the early 1930s naval rearmament:


Kil class sloops TMK Mesar, Maroder, Brigant, Podpalvach: Sell to Tankovian owners. Replace with S-boats.

S-boats: German S-2 class but with 45cm torpedoes to allow for more guns(2×twin 20mm or 2xsingle 2 pounder or something still in design).

24 class sloops TMK Svoboda and Nezavisimost: Retain and modernize by replacing the VTE engines with diesels. Strengthen the AA armament(see S-boats).

And the financial situation permitting one or two CV 707 type submarines.

 

 

[Simon Tan]

In the 1920s, the risk from the Kemalist navy, including the Yavuz(ex-Goeben) is very low. She is tied up in Izmir and with her boilers shot and unable to get underway with her own power. Indeed the Turks are consistently trying to raise the funds to get her refurbished (eventually in France, recommissioning in 1930). 

12" coastal guns (even surplus tubes) is really a bit outside our budget and even by 1930, the threat from one Turkish and one Soviet capital ship is pretty low.  The boffins recommend combined defensive countermeasures, namely air attack, mines, MTBs,  on-shore gun and torpedo batteries. And the threat of submarines.

Most surplus naval guns require new mounts if they are going to be reroled. There are exceptions to this, namely the pedestal mounted guns. Frustratingly, these guns tend not to be disposed of by major navies, specifically because they can be reroled to armed merchantmen etc. so a lot of 4" and even 6" guns are just warehoused after being removed.

Most of our 10cm/50 guns are off the SMS Admiral Spaun, given as reparations to the UK and disposed of. The other antiques ceded to the UK were armed with frankly antique armament with dismally short range.

We have studied the 60pdrs, which are in storage till 1931. They aren't much good as coastal guns because they have either weak HE or shrapnel ammunitions. 

But we do have concrete and manpower so we can build gun positions everywhere we want to. And install dummy guns.

Those Liftrucs look really good for warehousing!

[Simon Tan]

https://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/scaronkoda-pa-ii-ldquod283lovyacuterdquo-artillery-support-vehicle.html

This is interesting no?

[Simon Tan]

https://delostrelectvocsarmady1918-1939.estranky.cz/fotoalbum/hrube-delostrelectvo/15-cm-hruba-houfnice-vz-25/15-cm-h-vz-25.--.html

Czech Vz25 upgrade for our 15cm M.14/16s. Handily increases the max range to 11,800m, which is on par with the 10cm howitzers M36(Skoda H2) with 12,200m.

Which neatly raises the question of whether we keep using our surplus coal scuttles?

[Simon Tan]

It's not worth rebuilding the 24s as diesel powered vessels. Way too much work for not enough pay off. You can however convert them to oil firing to require less manning and be less dirty. OTH they run coal, which may be good thing should POL ever come into shortage.

[Markus Becker]

Tanktovian artillery: Please proof read!

 

 

AA:

 

Solothurn ST-5 20mm (older)

Breda Model 35 20mm (new)

Bofors 40mm

Bofors m/29 75mm/L52

 

 

field artillery:

 

Skoda M.15 75mm mountain/SP gun (old)

Skoda M.28 75mm mountain/SP gun (new)

 

Skoda vz14/19 10cm howitzer (old)

Skoda 10.4cm FK M.15(M22) cannon (old)

 

Skoda 15cm sFH M.14(M21) howitzer (old)

Skoda 15 cm K10 cannon (old)

 

Skoda H-series 105mm cannon (new)

Skoda K-series 105mm howitzer(new)

 

Skoda K-series 149mm howitzer (new)

 

 

siege artillery:

21cm Morser 16 (old)

 

coast artillery:

Skoda 15 cm K10 cannon (old)

 

[Markus Becker]

7 hours ago, Simon Tan said:

https://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/scaronkoda-pa-ii-ldquod283lovyacuterdquo-artillery-support-vehicle.html

This is interesting no?

Not interested. For SP halftracks are better. 

Helmet wise I am not seeing anything better ... yet. Though the Poles are working on a new helmet. 

Oil firing for the sloops for sure to reduce crew size and operating cost until we can replace them. 

And something else interesting from Lürssen. 

[Simon Tan]

Tankovian Artillery (pre-Sept 1939)

Anti-Aircraft

Oerlikon Model S 20L70 (2cm Automatic AA Cannon M.29) Changed out from ST-5 based on earlier availability.

No procurement of Breda Model 30s as a consequence. Will go straight to Hispano.

Bofors m.36 40L60 (4cm Automatic AA Cannon M.37)

Bofors m.29 75L52 (7.5cm AA Cannon M.31)

Field Artillery

Skoda M.15 75L15 (7.5cm Mountain Howitzer M18)  In Storage

Skoda M.15 75L18 (7.5cm Mountain Howitzer M28) Modernization of M18

Skoda vz 16/19 100L24 (10cm Mountain Howitzer M21)

Skoda vz 14/19 100L24 (10cm Howitzer M20)

Skoda H2 100L30 (10cm Howitzer M36) Motorized Brigades

Skoda M.15 104L35 (10.4cm Cannon M22) 

Skoda vz35 105L42 (10.5cm Cannon M36) Motorized Division

Skoda M.14/16 149L14 (15cm Howitzer M19) In Storage

Skoda vz25 149L18 (15cm Howitzer M27) Modernization of M19

Skoda K4 149L24 (15cm Howitzer M35) Motorized Division

 

Siege Artillery

Skoda Cannon NO vz 28 149L49 (15cm Cannon M29)

Skoda Mortar ON vz 28 220L19 (22cm Mortar M30)

21cm Morser 16 210L14.5 (21cm Howitzer M23)

Coastal Artillery

Skoda 15cm K10 149L50 (15cm Cannon M24)

[Simon Tan]

The armoured car with cannon is not the object of interest. Rather the gun and mount for a self-propelled gun on the TNHT chassis. 

 

[Simon Tan]

It is 1930 and the world economy is sunk. Tankovia is not exempt from its effects, though we are a little less disastrously affected by the evaporation of the essential lubricant of this engine, namely confidence.

Nonetheless, we have a Naval 5-year Plan in hand to build at least a squadron of robust escorts for our growing (temporarily suspended) fleet of oil tankers. With the primary terminus for these tankers being Poti and Haifa (oy vey our Jewish connections are very handy), this is the desired cruising range for our escorts. They should be able to travel to these ports without bunkering along the way.

Poti is a scant (650 nm) compared to Haifa (1300nm). So a range of 1,800 nm should be more than adequate.

The escorts will not need to keep up with a fleet but they will need enough speed manoeuvre against threats, especially submarines. So a top speed of no more than 24kts is adequate.

An escort needs to defend her charges against surface, subsurface and aerial attack. The last is something that was not really addressed in the Great War to much extent.

Subsurface threats require the use of hydrophones for detection and depth charges to attack.

Surface threats are seen off with either guns, or torpedoes to deter large combatants from closing.

Aerial threats are countered with Anti-Aircraft guns. 

The US Ambassador has suggested that we order our vessels from American yards, who are going through a very tough patch. This is not nearly as improbable as it seems, since by doing so we could likely extract some concessions as far as the Smoot-Hawley Tarrifs for our exports to the US. 

[Sardaukar]

Type IIA submarines, few of them, might be useful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_submarine_Vesikko

Could get them from Dutch or even Finns.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Sardaukar