Tankovian Meta Thread

[Simon Tan]

This thread is totally inspired by the terrific videos produced by Othais & Co. over at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClq1dvO44aNovUUy0SiSDOQ (C&Rsenal) and it is recommended that you avail yourself to them.

 

The Meta thread like the Russian-American Meta is intended to guide the main alt-history thread.

 

The basic proposition is that the fledgling Kingdom of Tankovia, formed from one of the many Conferences of the Great Powers to carve up the Balkans. I thought it should be ethnically and confessionally mixed with either a border with or proximity to the Ottoman Empire.

 

The Army is equipped with a mix of blackpowder and smokeless single shot rifles and carbines along with a smattering of repeaters (if you can explain why the Tankovian Horse Guards have leverguns....splain away!) which are dangerously obsolete as we go into the 20th century. Consequently, the Council of State has determined that the Army should be equipped with a modern smokeless repeating rifle and carbine.

 

I like a hopeless mix of rifles supplied by different entities seeking influence, perhaps Austrian and Russian and perhaps some captured Ottoman Martinis?

[bojan]

You are describing Serbia. 1890:

Mauser-Milovanovic M.80 single shot, BP, 10.15mm

Mauser-Milovanovic M.80/84 tubular magazine carbines (cavalry and artillery)

Berdan 2, 2nd call reserves

Krnka (Gendarmerie), Peabody conversions of Lorenz and ex-Turkish Peabody-Martini for 3rd call reserves.

Replaced by M.99, M.99/07 and M.10 Mauser rifles and M.07 cavalry carbines + reworks (M.80/07) of old BP single shots to a magazine fed 7x57mm rifles.

 

Solution - get Mausers. Possibly Mannlichers (Romanian 1893 is sweet rifle, Greek one is way better hunting than military rifle) if you are really close to A-H, but they always lacked production capacity for those, especially considering half or more Steyr production was occupied with Mausers. Since you will not be able to get 7.9x57 get 7x57. Stay off the Mosins, Russians are not able to produce enough. L-E and French are more problem than they are worth. If you are smart, try to establish company in US that will be able to supply you with rifles in case of WW1.

 

For a MGs get Maxims as a main MG, Madsen for specialist units.

Invest in hand grenades.

Studdy Balkan wars and Russo-Japanese war, it will come in handy.

Edited June 24, 2018 by bojan

[Simon Tan]

Im rather fond of Steyrwerke myself and really like their straight pull M95 rather than their export turnbolt pattern. I am also keen on the smaller 6.5mm caliber the Swedes and Italians have adopted but not their rimmed cartridges. Rimless is definitely a superior way to go.

 

But beyond that, I really like a trombone action like found on the Winchester 1897 shotgun. It allows a shooter to maintain a shooting grip while working the weapon. Perhaps it can be combined with the straight action of the M95 and a Mannlincher en bloc clip. Without a tubular magazine, one does not need a lifting mechanism and with a bolt handle you do not need a split bridge.

 

6.5x54 in 6 shot en bloc non directional clips.

 

Your thoughts?

[bojan]

As much as I like Mannlicher 95 they are not the best thing, purely from a technological point - you have increased complexity of manufacture over Mauser. Swedish 6.5x55 and Italian 6.5 Carcano were rimless. 6.5 has worse performances than 7x57 in machineguns.

Military pump actions were tried, they were found lacking already in 1880s.

[Simon Tan]

The major difference is the use of box magazine or en bloc clip vs. tubular magazines whose limitations are well known. The Mannlincher M95 system is easily adapted to operation using action bars which essentially take the place of the bolt handle.

I would almost certainly look to John Browning to do the development and to have it manufactured by FN.

[Chris Werb]

The main disadvantage of pump actions is not so much the tubular magazine that you find on most, but not all of them, but the relative difficulty of operating whilst prone.

[Simon Tan]

Prone firing is not particularly common unless skirmishing in the open. It is good for target shooting though.

[Panzermann]

Prone firing is not particularly common unless skirmishing in the open. It is good for target shooting though.

 

Austria took a beating against Prussian infantry going prone and shooting.

 

But admittedly the musketeer style of riflemen lines lasted into WW1 when it was finally put to history quickly.

 

 

 

to have a common cartridge with machine guns I vote for 7*57 in a P14/M1917 alike pattern. That is, a Mauser derived action with the bolt handle far enough back to easily actuate it.

 

For machine guns well, Maxim of course. If ossible some Madsen light machine guns for cavalry and such that have problems transporting the big Maxims. Oh and develop small mortars.

 

 

for the artillery pff. dunno. something Krupp or Skoda? I am not that good at turn of century artillery pieces.

 

 

 

Oooh and we absolutely have to have heated debates about straight vs. curved sabers for cavalry!

[TTK Ciar]

Oooh and we absolutely have to have heated debates about straight vs. curved sabers for cavalry!

Clearly cavalry should use axes, yes? How much of the blade can they actually use, besides near the tip? All the metal lower than that might as well be wooden handle.

[Tim Sielbeck]

Clearly cavalry should use axes, yes?

 

No.

[TonyE]

 

 

for the artillery pff. dunno. something Krupp or Skoda? I am not that good at turn of century artillery pieces.

 

 

The 75mm Krupp 1901/1902 pattern or the french M1897.

[TonyE]

Oh, and C96!!!!!

[bojan]

French Schneider 1907 and 1912 pattern was superior to 1897, it sacrificed about 10% of the MV, but was much more portable over the rough terrain, more reliable in service etc Neither Skoda or Krupp could compare. One thing however, get German fuses for a shells.

Edited May 14, 2018 by bojan

[Simon Tan]

Surely machineguns, smokeless powder repeaters and QF guns make formed lines and columns suicidal.

[TonyE]

In Tankovia, tradition dies hard.....

[Panzermann]

In Tankovia, tradition dies hard.....

 

In 1914 an Iron Cross was awarded to an NCO who had made his soldiers form a napoleonic style line and shoot their rifles straight like muskets...

[bojan]

In Tankovia, tradition dies hard.....

 

In Serbia lessons were learned quickly - by the end of 2nd Balkan war it was skirmishing all around.

[bojan]

 

to have a common cartridge with machine guns I vote for 7*57 in a P14/M1917 alike pattern.

 

 

Or Mexican pattern Arisaka in 7mm. Already "short rifle" format...

[Simon Tan]

That was the next bone....do we keep musket length rifles which are only needed for rank firing.

[Simon Tan]

Indeed we can test this with the simple exercise of setting up targets in formed ranks and skirmish then firing with assorted weapons to determine effect.

[bojan]

That was the next bone....do we keep musket length rifles which are only needed for rank firing.

After the experience of the Balkan wars Serbia decided that next rifle should be shorter, about 100cm vs 113 for model 1899 and 1910 Mausers (which was already ~12cm shorter than Gew 98 and 14cm shorter than Mannlicher 1895). Order for those was supposed to be placed in late 1914, with idea that first call would get those, while 2nd call would get 1899 and 1910, and 1880/07 conversions, ex-Bulgarian Mannlichers and Mosins going to a 3rd call, finally replacing BP single shots. Turkish Mausers were supposed to be rebarreled to a 7mm and converted to carbines for artillery, but "war were declared"...

[Panzermann]

 

 

to have a common cartridge with machine guns I vote for 7*57 in a P14/M1917 alike pattern.

 

 

Or Mexican pattern Arisaka in 7mm. Already "short rifle" format...

 

 

yes! Mexican Arisaka. Quintessentially japanese in copying and improving on a foreign idea.

 

 

But I think you can cycle the P14 faster with the position of the bolt handle. Although nobody stops us from putting a differently shaped bolt handle on the Arisaka. whoch goes together with the next point:

 

 

Indeed we can test this with the simple exercise of setting up targets in formed ranks and skirmish then firing with assorted weapons to determine effect.

 

skirmish warfare, partisans, heck just raiding a neighbouring village has been the way things have been done on the Balkans forever. So a shorter handier rifle that is easy to load and cycle should fit the requirement nicely. It does not need too much foresight IMHO to predict, that massed rifle fire at long range is being replaced by machine guns. No need for marking to 1000 klafters or volley sights then. If no machine guns are present the ranges will be shorter in a skirmish anyway I think, if fire is being massed in lieu of MGs.

 

 

Which brings us to sights. I like those french wide front posts with a line down the middle for finer aiming if needed. for the rear v notch on a tangent is the default I guess, but not really a good sight picture. Ideas?

[Panzermann]

 

That was the next bone....do we keep musket length rifles which are only needed for rank firing.

After the experience of the Balkan wars Serbia decided that next rifle should be shorter, about 100cm vs 113 for model 1899 and 1910 Mausers (which was already ~12cm shorter than Gew 98 and 14cm shorter than Mannlicher 1895). Order for those was supposed to be placed in late 1914, with idea that first call would get those, while 2nd call would get 1899 and 1910, and 1880/07 conversions, ex-Bulgarian Mannlichers and Mosins going to a 3rd call, finally replacing BP single shots. Turkish Mausers were supposed to be rebarreled to a 7mm and converted to carbines for artillery, but "war were declared"...

 

 

I see you also watch this amateur southerner couple on pornhub mistreating elderly european ladies.

[Simon Tan]

I like to see my target. Big rear mounted aperture. Battlesight and 100m increments to 600. I still like the M95 Stutzen…..

 

or my Browning-Mannlicher slide-action model of 1912!

Edited May 18, 2018 by Simon Tan

[TonyE]

 

 

That was the next bone....do we keep musket length rifles which are only needed for rank firing.

After the experience of the Balkan wars Serbia decided that next rifle should be shorter, about 100cm vs 113 for model 1899 and 1910 Mausers (which was already ~12cm shorter than Gew 98 and 14cm shorter than Mannlicher 1895). Order for those was supposed to be placed in late 1914, with idea that first call would get those, while 2nd call would get 1899 and 1910, and 1880/07 conversions, ex-Bulgarian Mannlichers and Mosins going to a 3rd call, finally replacing BP single shots. Turkish Mausers were supposed to be rebarreled to a 7mm and converted to carbines for artillery, but "war were declared"...

 

 

I see you also watch this amateur southerner couple on pornhub mistreating elderly european ladies.

 

 

The ways of the Tankovians are unexplainable to outsiders, Tankovia truly is a universe unto itself.