Free Speech In The Uk

[Briganza]

I was raised under the "when you're right , you're right and when you're wrong, you're wrong" rule. This guy may be a complete racist douche BUT he may also be right in this instance. Either way, he's due his rights under the law and full due process, which he appears not to have gotten from the ruling posted. From the comments here, you're all pretty ok with that because, you know, doucheness. That's a dangerous road to travel, however much your emotions may be justified.

You need to read the ruling (posted above) and the "Fact" as laid out in the appeal ruling. The Leeda judge went too quickly and the Appeal thought this was unsafe so have called for a retrial. At both Kent and Leeds Robinson admitted guilt.

 

Be aware most of what comes out of Robinson's mouth has very little relation to fact and those posting videos of interviews with him should think about that.

[Briganza]

 

No, it came down to his breaking the law, no matter how many people want to reframe it as something else.

 

Does anyone actually want to try and understand my country? Does it take too much effort to actually listen to what the people whom live here actually say?

By recording a video in front of a Courthouse? That deserves jail time? This is some Bolivarian nonesense. I don't think you realize what the problem is here.

 

No, he contaviend section 4(2) of the contempt of court act. I've posted it, read it.

[EchoFiveMike]

Meh, let the UK rot. The stupid cowards are more concerned about appearance than substance.

 

I fail to see the utility of arguing with people who will not be convinced of anything other than to simply hear one's self talk. Better to go to the gym, the range, work or something else productive. S/F....Ken M

[Briganza]

Pretty clear someone in government wanted to make an example of him, I think that is going to come back to haunt them. Even in democracies there are people who abuse their authority and powers. Sometimes by doing to much or not doing anything. the big difference is sooner or later there is an accounting of sorts. I think the handling of his case was utter stupidity and they just tossed massive fuel on the fire and proved everything he is saying is correct. In the UK it seems the Muslims hardliners are getting the slack, in the US, it's blacks gangs, in Canada it's the First Nation gangs in the Prairies. Ignoring these problems because they are political hard to deal with is common and eventually come back to bite everyone.

No, you are listening to the rubbish posted by those who are pushing Robinson's propaganda. Robinson brock the contempt of court act and was warned not to so it again. He ignored the warning and so was jail for the suspended sentence he was originally given. He was then sentenced to the Contempt of court he carried out in Leeds but on appeal the judge thought that the Leeds judge had gone too fast and so ordered a retrial of the second offence.

 

This is not government run contrary to what some may insist. The government are not trying to silence him or they would have given him some perfume. 10 to 15 years ago under a different government there was a feeling that some were untouchable, now the wind has changed and at this moment in time they have bigger fish to fry than some self publicising prat.

 

The judge, who has jailed (some for over 25 years) dozens of muslins involved with the exploitation and rape of children but did not want a dick stopping the chance that he could put more away. That's why he locked him up but as it would seem a little too quickly. There are more trial to come.

[Briganza]

 

 

If tossing a guy for filming in a courthouse makes all of this more palatable to you, then good. Its still some Banana Republic shit. Tommy reminds me of my school friend that ended up as a political prisoner for 100 days, same story, same physical decay.

 

 

Contrary to what many think he has not been found not guilty, he is to have a retiral and looking at what the appeal court has said he is going down, again.

 

I am glad you are enjoying Tommy's situation. And thank you for clarifying that Tommy could still spend allot of time in Kebab jail.

 

I mean, sending the guy to the largest musilm prison in Britain, that is something the courts do only when they wish to punish people, and not legally, but by abusing their power.

Your talking absolute rubbish.

 

Seems to me this is what you think Free Speech is, rubbish.

 

Robinson's situation is of his own making. He was given a warning and told not to do it again or else. Robinson did not heed the warning and so paid the price of being a dick.

Nope, even if the jailing was justified (and I say no, it wasn't), solitary for a month? Shit getting tossed into his cell?

 

You are actually OK with this?

 

Please clarify to me what is the largest Muslim prison in the UK?

 

I was not aware that we locked people up by religion. As I understand it you are locked up in relation to your crime not your religion. He would be incarcerated in a prison in England not Britain and generally one that is close to your home if possible, particularly if your crime is of a low level, probably an open prison in his case.

 

Now you are being willfully obtuse. In America they don't jail people because the color of their skin, but I guarantee you that there is a prison somewhere with the largest percentage of blacks. Are you saying that this does not happen in the UK?

 

 

I take it you did not read the "facts" part of the appeal or you would have seen that as well as filming within the court, and unlike the US cameras are not allowed in court, he also filmed defendants in contradiction of a court orders that could have jeopardized further criminal case and those who had been charges could have got off.

 

On the hole I am very please with how he was dealt with, because I would have been very upset if those that had raped children got off because prats like Robinson thought that they were above the law.

 

Wasn't Tommy the dude that broke the news about the fact that there are Muslim pedo-rings/groomers in the first place? He got incarcerated for bringing into the spotlight the exact same thing you want to be punished. As for me, the fact that your country has a problem of this magnitude and is more interested in jailing the people that report on the news, rather than the actual rapist, can only be compared to how the Church dealt with their own pedos.

 

Unless they have managed to come up with some method of passing shit through solid doors then you may be right or Robinson could be full of shit. Sell doors in the UK are solid look it up if you don't believe me.

 

No Robinson did not tell the word, that's more of his fantasy. Along with jails full of muslims.

 

 

At the end of March 2018, just under half of the prison population was of a Christian faith (48%) – a decrease of just over 10 percentage points compared to June 2002. The proportion of Muslim prisoners has increased from 8% in 2002 to 15% in 2018. The proportion of prisoners with no religion in 2018 (31%) was down slightly from 31.5% in 2002.

But Robinson said we were not locking up muslims!

 

Teh rapist are reported on and named with the length of sentence once they have been convicted and dong so will not prejudice other trial. It's quite simple. Once the trial is over Robinson could shout about it all he likes, once they are convicted, not before.

[Chris Werb]

Seriously, the whole Tommy Robinson thing has been explained, as it actually happened, over and over by UK posters on this thread. It books down to he broke the law and was locked up. The only place a conspiracy against him exists is in the minds of people who want there to be because it suits their world view. We lock up criminals in this country. It's not going to change. Please get over it.

[Cinaruco]

 

 

No, it came down to his breaking the law, no matter how many people want to reframe it as something else.

 

Does anyone actually want to try and understand my country? Does it take too much effort to actually listen to what the people whom live here actually say?

By recording a video in front of a Courthouse? That deserves jail time? This is some Bolivarian nonesense. I don't think you realize what the problem is here.

 

No, he contaviend section 4(2) of the contempt of court act. I've posted it, read it.

 

For filming in front of a courthouse... Your mental gymnastics to try to make this not political are simply not working on me.

[rmgill]

No, they are all twats as far as im concerned. I dont tend to listen to Twats or Nazi's. Im picky like that.

So my answer then is that you must be a Twat who asserts what he knows about the Russian state system and the US Government and what he thinks he knows about other things. IS that the right pick for you? Does that sit well/

[Cinaruco]

Seriously, the whole Tommy Robinson thing has been explained, as it actually happened, over and over by UK posters on this thread. It books down to he broke the law and was locked up. The only place a conspiracy against him exists is in the minds of people who want there to be because it suits their world view. We lock up criminals in this country. It's not going to change. Please get over it.

Your country has no free speech. Its a banana republic that way. Please get over it.

[Briganza]

So you didn't bother to read it but spout rubbish.

 

 

 

 

No, it came down to his breaking the law, no matter how many people want to reframe it as something else.

 

Does anyone actually want to try and understand my country? Does it take too much effort to actually listen to what the people whom live here actually say?

By recording a video in front of a Courthouse? That deserves jail time? This is some Bolivarian nonesense. I don't think you realize what the problem is here.

 

No, he contaviend section 4(2) of the contempt of court act. I've posted it, read it.

 

For filming in front of a courthouse... Your mental gymnastics to try to make this not political are simply not working on me.

 

[Cinaruco]

Why bother arguing with Corbynistas....

[Briganza]

Seriously, the whole Tommy Robinson thing has been explained, as it actually happened, over and over by UK posters on this thread. It books down to he broke the law and was locked up. The only place a conspiracy against him exists is in the minds of people who want there to be because it suits their world view. We lock up criminals in this country. It's not going to change. Please get over it.

There is a definite lack of critical think by a number of posters who accept the lies by a convicted liar as fact.

[Cinaruco]

 

Seriously, the whole Tommy Robinson thing has been explained, as it actually happened, over and over by UK posters on this thread. It books down to he broke the law and was locked up. The only place a conspiracy against him exists is in the minds of people who want there to be because it suits their world view. We lock up criminals in this country. It's not going to change. Please get over it.

There is a definite lack of critical think by a number of posters who accept the lies by a convicted liar as fact.

 

You can get convicted for lying? You have a bigger problem than I thought. :D

[rmgill]

You need to read the ruling (posted above) and the "Fact" as laid out in the appeal ruling. The Leeda judge went too quickly and the Appeal thought this was unsafe so have called for a retrial. At both Kent and Leeds Robinson admitted guilt.

One of the aspects of a conviction overturned on grounds pointing to lack of proper representation is that you very well may have had mitigating circumstances that were NOT brought up during the court hearings which would have resulted in dismissal or acquittal. When the state is arrayed against you, many folks who lack good representation knuckle under.

 

Pointing to a conviction where the accused acceded to the charges but which the judge in the highest court says was too expeditious, lacked proper representation and had other legal issues sounds like a very BAD ex post facto justification of the conviction and demonstrates willful blindness to rather important legal issues.

 

Be aware most of what comes out of Robinson's mouth has very little relation to fact and those posting videos of interviews with him should think about that.

What's odd about characterizations about Tommy being a racist is that Paul Joseph Watson points out in one of those videos that most of Tommy's mates from his live streams at pubs are black fellows. I think it's probably indicative that there's been a marginally successful campaign to paint him as racist. We've seen this across the board with other conservative leaning folks. The same was even done to Jordan Peterson in not so many words.

[rmgill]

Briganza,

Robinson was cited with contempt in the 1st case for filming inside the court house but NOT inside the court room as you previously cited.

He was arrested and improperly 'convicted' in the 2nd event for filming OUTSIDE The court house.

 

Please be careful in saying someone is spouting nonsense when I've already pointed out the specifics as outlined by Lord Burnett.

Edited August 4, 2018 by rmgill

[Cinaruco]

Briganza,

Robinson was cited with contempt in the 1st case for filming inside the court house but NOT inside the court room as you previously cited.

He was arrested and improperly 'convicted' in the 2nd event for filming OUTSIDE The court house.

 

Please be careful in saying someone is spouting nonsense when I've already pointed out the specifics as outlined by Lord Burnett.

But he has the FACTS!

[Briganza]

Seriously, the whole Tommy Robinson thing has been explained, as it actually happened, over and over by UK posters on this thread. It books down to he broke the law and was locked up. The only place a conspiracy against him exists is in the minds of people who want there to be because it suits their world view. We lock up criminals in this country. It's not going to change. Please get over it.

There is a definite lack of critical think by a number of posters who accept the lies by a convicted liar as fact.

[rmgill]

Seriously, the whole Tommy Robinson thing has been explained, as it actually happened, over and over by UK posters on this thread. It books down to he broke the law and was locked up. The only place a conspiracy against him exists is in the minds of people who want there to be because it suits their world view. We lock up criminals in this country. It's not going to change. Please get over it.

You guys explained something, Robinson's conviction as right and proper and wells deserved when the HIGHEST JUDGE in your country just said that it wasn't. What the hell do you need? A Vogon Constructor fleet hanging over Scapa in exactly the way bricks don't?

 

I pointed to things in the case that didn't sit well with me. The speed of the 'conviction' was one of them. The judge found that as ONE of several legal and procedural issues. Lack of proper legal representation was another. That was one of the things that WAS complained about a week after the incident. But I'm wrong? Tell Lord Burnett he's wrong please.

 

From the Secret Barrister. You know that site that said the conviction was proper and DB threw that at me as the final authority on the issue. The one that I "ignored by disagreeing with"....

 

This ugly and unnecessary throwaway reveals one of the biggest problems we have with our understanding of justice; the same problems that many of us are quick to highlight in our opponents. And that is that Robinson’s character, conduct and previous convictions, as reprehensible as they may be, are utterly irrelevant to the issue determined at the appeal, namely whether he received a fair hearing. If he did not – and he did not – he is as entitled as any of us to redress, or at the very least to an acknowledgment of being wronged. The attitude of “Who cares? He’s a criminal” mirrors the exact sentiment that has left the criminal justice system – from legal aid through to prisons – in its present desperate state.

 

It is immaterial whether Robinson has committed horrible crimes. Many people who appear before the courts have, especially in my line of work. And rights, if they mean anything, have to apply to everyone. It’s an obvious point, but this fundament of the rule of law is too often forgotten when we are confronted by society’s most unlovely.

 

If we neglect our first principles of justice, we fall into the trap carefully lain by the far-right. Their entire, dishonest thesis – from Trump through to Robinson – is that they are deprived of natural justice by its unequal, unprincipled application at the hands of liberal enemies of the people. By denigrating and distorting the rule of law they aim to undermine and ultimately destroy it. Implying that Robinson’s previous criminal record renders him less deserving of justice than the rest of us hands the far-right the prize they crave.

One of the hallmarks of free societies is that court proceedings are fair. Not too slow, not too fast and that they're proportional, with representation that has a reasonable amount of time to deal with the case. Harsh sentences that are out of proportion for the offenses, handed down after speedy trials 5 hours after the offense causing the court hearing with legal representation that's found quickly for the case are NOT the hallmark of a free society. When your highest judge reverses such a conviction you should sit up and take note and not take the piss out of people who noted some discomfort with the case in question.

Edited August 4, 2018 by rmgill

[Jeff]

 

This ugly and unnecessary throwaway reveals one of the biggest problems we have with our understanding of justice; the same problems that many of us are quick to highlight in our opponents. And that is that Robinson’s character, conduct and previous convictions, as reprehensible as they may be, are utterly irrelevant to the issue determined at the appeal, namely whether he received a fair hearing. If he did not – and he did not – he is as entitled as any of us to redress, or at the very least to an acknowledgment of being wronged. The attitude of “Who cares? He’s a criminal” mirrors the exact sentiment that has left the criminal justice system – from legal aid through to prisons – in its present desperate state.

 

It is immaterial whether Robinson has committed horrible crimes. Many people who appear before the courts have, especially in my line of work. And rights, if they mean anything, have to apply to everyone. It’s an obvious point, but this fundament of the rule of law is too often forgotten when we are confronted by society’s most unlovely.

 

If we neglect our first principles of justice, we fall into the trap carefully lain by the far-right. Their entire, dishonest thesis – from Trump through to Robinson – is that they are deprived of natural justice by its unequal, unprincipled application at the hands of liberal enemies of the people. By denigrating and distorting the rule of law they aim to undermine and ultimately destroy it. Implying that Robinson’s previous criminal record renders him less deserving of justice than the rest of us hands the far-right the prize they crave.

One of the hallmarks of free societies is that court proceedings are fair. Not too slow, not too fast and that they're proportional, with representation that has a reasonable amount of time to deal with the case. Harsh sentences that are out of proportion for the offenses, handed down after speedy trials 5 hours after the offense causing the court hearing with legal representation that's found quickly for the case are NOT the hallmark of a free society. When your highest judge reverses such a conviction you should sit up and take note and not take the piss out of people who noted some discomfort with the case in question.

 

 

Hear, hear.

 

Exactly what has been said above by myself, you and others. I don't care if he's the secret love child of Hitler and Stalin, he's entitled to the full protections of the law or there is no law.

[DKTanker]

C'mon Brits, be a good O'Brien and memory hole the guy so we can all get on with our lives.

[Colin]

 

Pretty clear someone in government wanted to make an example of him, I think that is going to come back to haunt them. Even in democracies there are people who abuse their authority and powers. Sometimes by doing to much or not doing anything. the big difference is sooner or later there is an accounting of sorts. I think the handling of his case was utter stupidity and they just tossed massive fuel on the fire and proved everything he is saying is correct. In the UK it seems the Muslims hardliners are getting the slack, in the US, it's blacks gangs, in Canada it's the First Nation gangs in the Prairies. Ignoring these problems because they are political hard to deal with is common and eventually come back to bite everyone.

No, you are listening to the rubbish posted by those who are pushing Robinson's propaganda. Robinson brock the contempt of court act and was warned not to so it again. He ignored the warning and so was jail for the suspended sentence he was originally given. He was then sentenced to the Contempt of court he carried out in Leeds but on appeal the judge thought that the Leeds judge had gone too fast and so ordered a retrial of the second offence.

 

This is not government run contrary to what some may insist. The government are not trying to silence him or they would have given him some perfume. 10 to 15 years ago under a different government there was a feeling that some were untouchable, now the wind has changed and at this moment in time they have bigger fish to fry than some self publicising prat.

 

The judge, who has jailed (some for over 25 years) dozens of muslins involved with the exploitation and rape of children but did not want a dick stopping the chance that he could put more away. That's why he locked him up but as it would seem a little too quickly. There are more trial to come.

 

Mate, you can't get 13 months here with violent assault. The "offense" is nowhere worth 13 months. then the prisons moves, and any halfwit prison official would know it's a bad idea to place him in a prison with a large Muslim population. I work in government and I seen it get vindictive and that is what has happened behind the scenes. The idiots would have been far better off just hauling him down the street a bit everytime. Now it's blown up in their face and they look to be on the same side as the people accused of child molestation, the stupidity from a PR and public policy perspective is painful to watch. This is going to be a case study on how not to handle these situations in the future.

[Stuart Galbraith]

That it was poorly managed I wouldnt disagree with. The judge has been criticized at putting more reporting restrictions on top of the usual ones, but its pretty clear Robinson DID break the law in the previous offense he was bound over for, which the appeal upheld, on which there were no further restrictions. So even without further restrictions, its highly likely he would have broke the law anyway. Because that seems to me to have been his intention, so create a media event to compensate for his small penis presumably.

 

In the end, it comes down to significant cultural differences from the US, in that you dont comment on trials whilst they are ongoing. You can present a summary of the evidence given at the end of the day, but not before. And you can offer commentary on how the trial went AFTER it has ended. And this is actually very open. Im reminded of the Jeremy Thorpe Trial (look it up) where the judge was ridiculed in his summation of the evidence as being too pro Thorpe. Peter Cook did a parody of it, and was not in contempt of court, because he did it AFTER the trial ended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U

Our American friends are either being willfully obtuse, or they just dont get it, but I dont suppose the situation will improve if we keep pointing it out. Im done. Hopefully Robinson gets Van Diemans Land this time.

[Briganza]

 

 

Pretty clear someone in government wanted to make an example of him, I think that is going to come back to haunt them. Even in democracies there are people who abuse their authority and powers. Sometimes by doing to much or not doing anything. the big difference is sooner or later there is an accounting of sorts. I think the handling of his case was utter stupidity and they just tossed massive fuel on the fire and proved everything he is saying is correct. In the UK it seems the Muslims hardliners are getting the slack, in the US, it's blacks gangs, in Canada it's the First Nation gangs in the Prairies. Ignoring these problems because they are political hard to deal with is common and eventually come back to bite everyone.

No, you are listening to the rubbish posted by those who are pushing Robinson's propaganda. Robinson brock the contempt of court act and was warned not to so it again. He ignored the warning and so was jail for the suspended sentence he was originally given. He was then sentenced to the Contempt of court he carried out in Leeds but on appeal the judge thought that the Leeds judge had gone too fast and so ordered a retrial of the second offence.

 

This is not government run contrary to what some may insist. The government are not trying to silence him or they would have given him some perfume. 10 to 15 years ago under a different government there was a feeling that some were untouchable, now the wind has changed and at this moment in time they have bigger fish to fry than some self publicising prat.

 

The judge, who has jailed (some for over 25 years) dozens of muslins involved with the exploitation and rape of children but did not want a dick stopping the chance that he could put more away. That's why he locked him up but as it would seem a little too quickly. There are more trial to come.

 

Mate, you can't get 13 months here with violent assault. The "offense" is nowhere worth 13 months. then the prisons moves, and any halfwit prison official would know it's a bad idea to place him in a prison with a large Muslim population. I work in government and I seen it get vindictive and that is what has happened behind the scenes. The idiots would have been far better off just hauling him down the street a bit everytime. Now it's blown up in their face and they look to be on the same side as the people accused of child molestation, the stupidity from a PR and public policy perspective is painful to watch. This is going to be a case study on how not to handle these situations in the future.

 

The problem we have is that a number of people have invested large amounts of capital in Robinson and so will not do any critical thinking about him. If they did they would quickly see he lies, repeatedly. Simple searches would show this but to do this would also show that they have been duped by him and so look foolish. They can't take that step and so continue to support him or look stupid.

 

Robinson was in a prison with a large muslim population. No he wasn't Hull has 7.4% =79.

Robinson was released from HMP Onley which is

 

Reception Criteria: Onley is a Category C Resettlement Establishment, accepting prisoners with a sentence of 1 to 4 years and longer term prisoners who are approaching the end of their sentence. Onley will accept progressive moves for IPP offenders.

Onley does not have a mosque and as it is a transition prison would not have isolation cells as the prisoner are transitioning to the outside. They do have single cell which is a luxury in most English prisons. If you search for images of HMP Onley you will see that like all English prisons the doors are solid so you can't throw shit through the door. He was moved to Onley by the Home Secretary who is a muslim, no he was not as prisons are controlled by the Secretary of State for Justice the Lord Chancellor David Gauke. Uk muslim prison population is about 15%. No prison in the Midlands has a muslim population over 24% and as numbers can be small the % can fluctuate a lot with 2 or 3 comming or going. Non have a majority of muslim prisoners. Even Leicester which has a high muslim population only reaches 24%.

 

Robinson told the world about the sex scandals, easily checked and another lie.

 

All of this is easily checked. Robinson is a known and convicted liar and nothing he has said about his stay in side is true but people would check this as it will show he has duped them.

 

Robinson did not get 13 months. He already had a suspended sentence of 3 months which came into force when he broke the rule governing that. He then got another 12 months for the second offence as he had not learned from the first offence. Would you get a longer sentence for assault on your second offence? They would not have been better moving him on if the case that was in court at the time was thrown out due to his antics and future case dropped.

 

The judge in this case had already sentenced dozens of defendants of similar offences and given them long sentences. He was comming to the end of a long trial involving similar charges and if convicted would again hand down long sentences. A number of the current defendants he knew were also going on to be tried in other cases he was to preside over. The judge did not want the current defendants to get off on a technicality and to jeopardise the future trial. I can see why he was a bit miffed and probably reacted too quickly, which is what the Appeal Court said.

 

Because of the ongoing trial of defendants it will not be reported if any of these defendants in the case that Robinson was shouting about have been convicted till all the trial have been concluded. In the English courts information about prior conviction are not given to the jury as it may sway them. Only once they have been convicted will it be made public and the judge will take this into account when sentencing. Which is why Robinson got a longer sentence for the second offence.

[BansheeOne]

Robinson told the world about the sex scandals, easily checked and another lie.

 

I find this one particularly funny. As far as I can see, when the "Times" ran an article on 5 January 2011 citing a study that of 56 offenders convicted of crimes related to grooming of underage girls since 1997 in two English counties, 50 were Muslims, Tommy-this-an'-Tommy-that was busy brawling with enemy and his own soccer hooligans, and building a record of breaking court conditions while claiming to be a political prisoner.

 

Robinson was convicted in 2011 of using "threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour" during a fight between supporters of Luton Town and Newport County in Luton the previous year. Robinson reportedly led the group of Luton fans, and played an integral part in starting a 100-man brawl, during which he chanted "EDL till I die". He was sentenced to a 12-month community rehabilitation order with 150 hours unpaid work and a three-year ban from attending football matches.^[27]

 

Robinson was arrested again after an EDL demonstration in Tower Hamlets in September 2011 for breach of bail conditions, as he had been banned from attending that demonstration. Robinson later began a hunger strike while on remand in HM Prison Bedford, saying that he was a "political prisoner of the state",^[28] and refused to eat what he believed was halal meat.^[29] A handful of EDL supporters protested outside the prison in support of Robinson during his incarceration; the support peaked at a turnout of 100 protesters on 10 September.^[30] Robinson was released on bail on 12 September.^[31]

 

On 29 September 2011, Robinson was convicted of common assault after headbutting a fellow EDL member at a rally in Blackburn in April that year.^[32] He was sentenced to 12 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months.^[33] Robinson said that the assault had happened because of a confrontation with a neo-Nazi who had joined the EDL.^[34][35]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)#English_Defence_League

 

By the way, when the board throws out your post because it thinks you're a robot, usually you can just hit the back button twice to the editing window and post again till it works. Doing this right now ...

[Stuart Galbraith]

There is something wrong with the forum. It wont even let me put the page up on the laptop I use Kaspersky on.