Nerve Agent Attack In Britain.

[Stuart Galbraith]

In other, more positive fallout from the Salisbury Incident...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/23/offshore-owners-of-british-property-to-be-forced-to-reveal-names

 

Offshore owners of British property will be forced to reveal their true identities or face jail sentences and unlimited fines under draft laws that aim to end the UK’s reputation as a high-risk jurisdiction for money laundering.

The legislation follows years of scandals involving the acquisition of high-value UK property by offshore companies, and concerns that a lack of regulation was allowing corrupt money into the housing market.

The National Crime Agency said three years ago that overseas criminal gangs were using British property transactions to launder billions of pounds in corrupt funds. Parliament’s foreign affairs committee went further earlier this year, saying that corrupt Russian funds laundered through the UK, including via property, posed a threat to national security.

Under the new legislation, overseas companies that own UK properties will be required to identify their true owners on a publicly available register. The government said the register was part of a wider crackdown on money laundering in the property sector, and would make it easier for law enforcers to seize criminal assets.

 

 

Oops. Shot. Foot.

[Briganza]

A case is going through the courts at the moment.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-44954587

 

 

The fugitive wife of a "fat cat banker" who's spent £16m in Harrods is battling to keep her London mansion after the UK's first use of a new power to combat international corruption.

A less tabloid report in the FT

 

https://www.ft.com/content/f09c4242-90d2-11e8-b639-7680cedcc421

 

 

Details of the spending came on the last day of the London High Court hearing in which the wife of a “fat cat international banker” challenged an NCA demand to explain how she was able to afford two British properties worth a combined £22m.

 

I can see long queues at Heathrow in the VIP lounge If the NCA win.

[Adam Peter]

Oops. Shot. Foot.

 

Brexit already taking a toll on the financial sector, Trump has some mutually beneficial offers, and now this blow to the financial sector, it is that, sure.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I think the point people miss, is that the financial sector was already strangling London. It crowded out any other business. They just built a container port up the river to give themselves something else. The property thing is related. We have lots of foreign investors buying up expensive property and streets in London like a monopoly board, but they dont live in them. They just treat them like a financial asset. The net result is that its becoming very difficult for people in london to find somewhere inexpensive to live. Its making it hard for the plebs, you know the people whom actually make the city work, to live in the city they work in. Commuting is one solution, or would be if it wasnt so damn expensive and unreliable.In london, the property bubble never really ended.

 

Unless something is done to get the property bubble in hand, London will end up strangling itself. And the Brexit result will be kind of irrelevant.

[Roman Alymov]

So they go and publish photos of, say for sake of argument, a Chanel no5 bottle, and suddenly everyone starts returning their bottles, and Chanel sue the WIltshire constabulary for damages. Um, how about no?

 

Its pretty clearly been established that this stuff has a delayed effect from working through the skin. Charlie Rowley for example fell unconcious several hours later, but then he had the wherewithal to wash his hands. That it proved nearly immediately fatal for Dawn Sturgess really shouldnt be a surprise. She got a far higher dose than anyone else.

 

Of course Novichok is found on countless occasions in Wiltshire. I too have found dozens of bottle ive thoughtfully discarded in a bin because small children might pick them up. Truly I cant understand why it hasn't happened before.

Effectively you are saying me Stuart your Government is not afraid of claiming nerve agent almost as dangerous as nuclear bomb on the streets (see massive claimed cost of "cleanup"), not afraid of throwing baseless accusations to world's no.2 nuclear power bordering declaration of war, but are afraid of Chanel sue the WIltshire constabulary for damages? If it is true, they are just mad.

If washing hands is enough to survive Novichok after direct contact with bottle of it, then what is the point of all this spacesuits, destroyed houses, burned cats and so on? And it was't nearly immediately fatal for Dawn Sturgess - she was asking for headache pills when should be long dead taking into account massive dose and combination of skin and inhalation effect in closed volume of the house.

Novichok is allready part of Western mass culture - see "The Sum of All Fears", "At approximately 06.00, Moscow time, the Russians launched a massive artillery strike against Grozny, the capital of Chechnya.The shells contained an experimental chemical weapon known as the Novichok binary nerve agent..." Not surprising this brand name is used again and again to frighten the audience. Of course, later it will be claimed to be "not official version but media speculation", like all other previous versions....

Re "Craig Murray is not the UK ambassador to anywhere. So knows as much about this as my dog" - correct me if i am wrong - i do not see him saying he knows something. He is only showing contradictions in official versions, and asking questions. After all he is native English speaker well aware of how the system is working, so his opinion is of some interest (at least for me).

 

More about how this case is seen in other places: here is Ukrainian political expert speaking on popular pro-Ukrainian internet TV channel. When asked "How do you think, will Northern Stream-2 pipeline construction be stopped" -reply is "It is 99% it will continue. I do not know, how many Skripals are needed to stop it. It will take covering all Solsberry with Skripals corpses to somehow made West into stopping it" - "It is terrible black humor" - "Unfortunately it is not humor. You must understand that when the case is about tens of billions of dollars, life of few people, especially if they are not good people, not British and even not Europeans, <does not count much>"

[Briganza]

deleted Need to go to work.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Briganza

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

So they go and publish photos of, say for sake of argument, a Chanel no5 bottle, and suddenly everyone starts returning their bottles, and Chanel sue the WIltshire constabulary for damages. Um, how about no?

 

Its pretty clearly been established that this stuff has a delayed effect from working through the skin. Charlie Rowley for example fell unconcious several hours later, but then he had the wherewithal to wash his hands. That it proved nearly immediately fatal for Dawn Sturgess really shouldnt be a surprise. She got a far higher dose than anyone else.

 

Of course Novichok is found on countless occasions in Wiltshire. I too have found dozens of bottle ive thoughtfully discarded in a bin because small children might pick them up. Truly I cant understand why it hasn't happened before.

Effectively you are saying me Stuart your Government is not afraid of claiming nerve agent almost as dangerous as nuclear bomb on the streets (see massive claimed cost of "cleanup"), not afraid of throwing baseless accusations to world's no.2 nuclear power bordering declaration of war, but are afraid of Chanel sue the WIltshire constabulary for damages? If it is true, they are just mad.

If washing hands is enough to survive Novichok after direct contact with bottle of it, then what is the point of all this spacesuits, destroyed houses, burned cats and so on? And it was't nearly immediately fatal for Dawn Sturgess - she was asking for headache pills when should be long dead taking into account massive dose and combination of skin and inhalation effect in closed volume of the house.

Novichok is allready part of Western mass culture - see "The Sum of All Fears", "At approximately 06.00, Moscow time, the Russians launched a massive artillery strike against Grozny, the capital of Chechnya.The shells contained an experimental chemical weapon known as the Novichok binary nerve agent..." Not surprising this brand name is used again and again to frighten the audience. Of course, later it will be claimed to be "not official version but media speculation", like all other previous versions....

Re "Craig Murray is not the UK ambassador to anywhere. So knows as much about this as my dog" - correct me if i am wrong - i do not see him saying he knows something. He is only showing contradictions in official versions, and asking questions. After all he is native English speaker well aware of how the system is working, so his opinion is of some interest (at least for me).

 

More about how this case is seen in other places: here is Ukrainian political expert speaking on popular pro-Ukrainian internet TV channel. When asked "How do you think, will Northern Stream-2 pipeline construction be stopped" -reply is "It is 99% it will continue. I do not know, how many Skripals are needed to stop it. It will take covering all Solsberry with Skripals corpses to somehow made West into stopping it" - "It is terrible black humor" - "Unfortunately it is not humor. You must understand that when the case is about tens of billions of dollars, life of few people, especially if they are not good people, not British and even not Europeans, <does not count much>"

 

 

Well gee Roman, if we dumped some of this stuff in Pskov, do you think your country would underreact? Somehow I think not. You are lucky our PM isnt as unbalanced as your President is all I can say about that.

 

The only Murray I listen to is Al Murray, whom memorably plays a publican pisshead. Although he still manages to talk more sense than the Russian Government when doing so.

 

As for the rest, I see nothing to address but more 'whataboutism'. Which really is a terminal disease in some quarters. Perhaps we ought to refer it to the CWC as well.

[Stuart Galbraith]

The Funeral of Dawn Sturgess is today. Just in case anyone is still labouring under the impression it was a victimless crime.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/dawn-sturgess-funeral_uk_5b5eafd0e4b0b15aba9a3980

[Roman Alymov]

 

 

Well gee Roman, if we dumped some of this stuff in Pskov, do you think your country would underreact? Somehow I think not. You are lucky our PM isnt as unbalanced as your President is all I can say about that.

 

Again, you are mixing your Gov (and media) claims with reality. Imagine situation Russian Gov and media claiming UK dumped something in Pskov – what will be UK reaction? Let me remind you old story when UK was caught with smoking gun and physical evidence - UK reaction was denial (and campaign in Western-sponsored “liberal” press in Russia making fun of Russian special services for “fake”)

May be in 6 or 12 years some retired UK official would say “Yes it was our brilliant operation, unfortunately with some collateral damage” – so what?

[Briganza]

Re "Craig Murray is not the UK ambassador to anywhere. So knows as much about this as my dog" - correct me if i am wrong - i do not see him saying he knows something. He is only showing contradictions in official versions, and asking questions. After all he is native English speaker well aware of how the system is working, so his opinion is of some interest (at least for me).

You made the post using a person YOU said was a British Ambassador suggesting his position would give him some insight to the events. He is not an ambassador and his inside is as valid as my dog.

 

Please explain these contradiction in the official version.

 

And as for the Rock, should that go in the Putin rocks thread as it has no relevance in this one beside a bit of whataboutery.

[JWB]

The delayed effect of the toxin could be explained by chemical degradation from impurities.

[glenn239]

Ok, but why would a weapons grade toxin in government issued, sealed, bottle contain impurities?

[JWB]

Ok, but why would a weapons grade toxin in government issued, sealed, bottle contain impurities?

The toxin was produced by second rate chemists in a secret lab owned by oligarchs.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Re "Craig Murray is not the UK ambassador to anywhere. So knows as much about this as my dog" - correct me if i am wrong - i do not see him saying he knows something. He is only showing contradictions in official versions, and asking questions. After all he is native English speaker well aware of how the system is working, so his opinion is of some interest (at least for me).

You made the post using a person YOU said was a British Ambassador suggesting his position would give him some insight to the events. He is not an ambassador and his inside is as valid as my dog.

 

Please explain these contradiction in the official version.

 

And as for the Rock, should that go in the Putin rocks thread as it has no relevance in this one beside a bit of whataboutery.

 

Could you please demonstrate me what part of "Another point from former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan" contain suggestion "his position would give him some insight to the events" ? He is only political activist with background of high-ranked diplomat, making his judgment based on open sources and his version of common sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Murray. I do not see why his opinion is of less value then one of British press (that i am told now worth nothing) and acting politicians.

Re the Spy Rock case - as for me, it perfectly demonstrate how British cover-up system works , quite relevant here.

 

Re "The delayed effect of the toxin could be explained by chemical degradation from impurities." - let me remind that "Skripals were poisoned by high-purity novichok, watchdog confirms" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/skripals-were-poisoned-by-high-purity-novichok-watchdog-confirms-wb8dwphk6

Edited July 30, 2018 by Roman Alymov

[JWB]

High purity is not true purity. Tiny amounts of contaminates can cause rapid degradation.

 

Also the bottle was at least translucent allowing sun light to affect the chemical.

Edited July 31, 2018 by JWB

[Adam Peter]

What if the Novichok was pure (as in not mixed with something that degrades it) but small part of the fluid(?) contained in the bottle?

 

Say designed to make seriously ill, not kill from touching a door handle, but not designed to give chance if someone "bathed" in it?

[Ssnake]

How would you "control" the dosage?

The reality is that poisoning is an extremely fickle assassination method. It may not be possible to "overdose" a poison in order to kill someone, but "underdosage" is a risk because typically the thinking assassin doesn't want to kill himself or cause a lot of collateral damage. In that sense the Bulgarian umbrella was probably the best trick ever devised - a really tiny projectile containing just enough poison when injected into the blood stream.

 

Ingestion of poison is one to several thousand times less effective than injection, but the offset is an easier delivery. Still there's the risk that the victim won't eat what you poisoned, or that someone else will.

Contact poisons typically are one to several tousand times less effective that ingested ones. Easiest delivery vector, obviously, but for abundantly clear reasons also the method with the highest chances of collateral damage, not killing the target, alerting the public, or d), all of the above.

 

Finally, each organism reacts somewhat unpredictable; what's deadly for one person may be survived by the next (I am however highly skeptical about the quality of life even if you survive).

 

Purity only matters when your selected dosage must be minimal, typically due to volume constraints, or if the poison chemically reacts with the impurities, especially if they are of the catalytic kind. But if your delivery method already dictates a massive overdose, well, collateral damages are pretty much unavoidable. Collateral damage tends to attract a lot of unwelcome attention; whether its a nerve agent or a highly radioactive material is pretty much irrelevant.

 

 

 

TBH, this whole incident reads pretty much exactly like the kind of crazy stunt that Walter White would try - solving a "problem" by creating a buch bigger mess elsewhere. Except that it isn't fiction ... but yeah - it has the signature of a mob (that doesn't think of consequences or simply doesn't care), colluding with an out-of-control intelligence service.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Ssnake

[Stuart Galbraith]

The only reason the Skripals and Nick Bentley survived was because they threw the entire resources of the state at saving them. Money no was object. Its not plausible to say the Russians just ticked them with a little poison. They clearly mean to kill them. We did the same thing with Rowley and Sturgess, the only reason it didnt work with the latter is she received a fatal dose. Its that simple really. That they only killed one out of five is down to operator error and the British NHS.

 

I think we have already discovered there are a series of A230 series weapon's, that vary in how quickly they act. We knew that it was an A230 series weapon (a novichok). The only thing we didnt know is what particular variant it was. Well now that that Porton Down and the OPCW have a bottle of the stuff, we can probably nail that one down. Good news for us, bad news for any fluffy bunnys (or Russian cats for that matter).

 

 

There is no evidence of any contaminants in the stuff thus far. That story was a Russian Fake News story, and the OPCW clearly refuted it. Clearly we will have to wait for any tests on the perfume novichok.

[Adam Peter]

A230 looks like pretty much exact variant, since there are no 1000 nerve agents selected to work with. Well, it is not exact if it is produced by a major laptop maker...

[Stuart Galbraith]

Mirzayanov and others have pointed to the fact that its actually a family of weapons, some of which are refered to as Novichok, others which have an A230 series label. We also do not know quite what refinements were put on it after the Soviet Army finished development and the KGB picked it up.

 

What is interesting is that Charlie Rowley described that when he got some of the stuff on his hands, it was oily. Which sounds very like the gell that was described as being put on the door handle. Possibly it makes it easier to apply (in that there is less chance of it being a spray that can be inhaled or fall on your skin) possibly it also slows down the absorbsion process through the human body.

 

Well the test results will doubtless be interesting.

[Stuart Galbraith]

How would you "control" the dosage?

The reality is that poisoning is an extremely fickle assassination method. It may not be possible to "overdose" a poison in order to kill someone, but "underdosage" is a risk because typically the thinking assassin doesn't want to kill himself or cause a lot of collateral damage. In that sense the Bulgarian umbrella was probably the best trick ever devised - a really tiny projectile containing just enough poison when injected into the blood stream.

 

Ingestion of poison is one to several thousand times less effective than injection, but the offset is an easier delivery. Still there's the risk that the victim won't eat what you poisoned, or that someone else will.

Contact poisons typically are one to several tousand times less effective that ingested ones. Easiest delivery vector, obviously, but for abundantly clear reasons also the method with the highest chances of collateral damage, not killing the target, alerting the public, or d), all of the above.

 

Finally, each organism reacts somewhat unpredictable; what's deadly for one person may be survived by the next (I am however highly skeptical about the quality of life even if you survive).

 

Purity only matters when your selected dosage must be minimal, typically due to volume constraints, or if the poison chemically reacts with the impurities, especially if they are of the catalytic kind. But if your delivery method already dictates a massive overdose, well, collateral damages are pretty much unavoidable. Collateral damage tends to attract a lot of unwelcome attention; whether its a nerve agent or a highly radioactive material is pretty much irrelevant.

 

 

 

TBH, this whole incident reads pretty much exactly like the kind of crazy stunt that Walter White would try - solving a "problem" by creating a buch bigger mess elsewhere. Except that it isn't fiction ... but yeah - it has the signature of a mob (that doesn't think of consequences or simply doesn't care), colluding with an out-of-control intelligence service.

 

As said elsewhere, there isnt much difference (at least according to Litvinenko's book, which his death seemingly bears out...) between the Russian intelligence services and the Russian mob. Its not like the informal links between the CIA and the Mafia as existed between the 1950s and the 1970's.. What happened in the 1990's looks either like a passive takeover, or Russian intelligence officers moonlighting as mobsters. It amounts to much the same thing when you get down to it.

 

What is going on reminds me of German intelligence operations in the early war period, leading to such things as the Venlo incident. People like Schellenburg didnt really understand the rules or objective of intelligence operations, they just picked romantic and dramatic ideas up from fiction and tried to make it work in real life, and clearly its one of the reason's why German Military Intelligence in WW2 gave such poor results. And its much the case here, we have someone whom clearly has been reading far too much Fleming or watching Jason Bourne films, when they would have done better to take a long hard look at what an intelligence service is supposed to do.

 

If Peter Wrights Spycatcher is any guide, MI5 once, back in the 1950's, had its own poison department. It got rid of it when it realised using it was diametrically opposed to what was its core mission. Considering what a poor track record the FSB or SVR have at detecing terrorists within their borders, you would assume they would be more interesting in doing something about that, than becoming terrorists themselves.

 

But clearly its too much to hope for.

[Briganza]

 

 

Re "Craig Murray is not the UK ambassador to anywhere. So knows as much about this as my dog" - correct me if i am wrong - i do not see him saying he knows something. He is only showing contradictions in official versions, and asking questions. After all he is native English speaker well aware of how the system is working, so his opinion is of some interest (at least for me).

You made the post using a person YOU said was a British Ambassador suggesting his position would give him some insight to the events. He is not an ambassador and his inside is as valid as my dog.

 

Please explain these contradiction in the official version.

 

And as for the Rock, should that go in the Putin rocks thread as it has no relevance in this one beside a bit of whataboutery.

 

Could you please demonstrate me what part of "Another point from former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan" contain suggestion "his position would give him some insight to the events" ? He is only political activist with background of high-ranked diplomat, making his judgment based on open sources and his version of common sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Murray. I do not see why his opinion is of less value then one of British press (that i am told now worth nothing) and acting politicians.

Re the Spy Rock case - as for me, it perfectly demonstrate how British cover-up system works , quite relevant here.

 

Re "The delayed effect of the toxin could be explained by chemical degradation from impurities." - let me remind that "Skripals were poisoned by high-purity novichok, watchdog confirms" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/skripals-were-poisoned-by-high-purity-novichok-watchdog-confirms-wb8dwphk6

 

You now accept that he is not an UK Ambassador. He was sacked in 2004 for being a prat and only served 2 years in post. He likes to say that he was sacked over what he said but it is more likely that running off with a lapdancer half his age was the real reason. You can see why his judgment may be a bit suspect and in the words of the women he ran off with "Love had nothing to do with it," she says, when I ask her how she ended up with Murray.

"It looked the quickest way out. I was determined to get to the UK or America."

As to cover ups hiding the truth we can look at Russian ones, off the top of my head we have

Fighter pilots in Korea

Russian spy trawlers

Kursk

Chernobyl

Invasion of Crimea

I am sure with a little research I could find a lot more. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

Back to the topic in hand, I have asked you twice now, what are these inconsistencies you keep speaking of but you fail to point them out.

[Simon Tan]

Porton Down Novichok is rubbish. Insist on original Soviet formulation. The Lucas Engineering of WMDs.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Once again Sputnik displays its characteristic lack of concern for human lives, and starts to muckrake over the 'Speed' of Dawn Sturgess's cremation. I mean, its been 3 and a half weeks. What are they waiting for, the rapture?

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201808011066842218-russia-uk-embassy-amesbury-cremation/

 

Interestingly the Russian embassy didnt post anything about this on their Twitter feed. They seem more interested in Lavrov's 'Polycentric' world, whatever that is. Plastic in the water presumably.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Lucas Electric was fine, except when it was wet. A small handicap in an Island reknowned for the lack of a summer. With global warming and the Mad Max style temperatures we are now receiving, it would be a world leader.

 

Dawn Sturgess's funeral concludes.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/996552/I-loved-you-mum-girls-eulogy-novichok-victim-dawn-sturgess

Edited August 1, 2018 by Stuart Galbraith