50 Years Ago Today The Tet Offensive Started

[Ken Estes]

Speaking of "the betrayal," I received this link for a Youtube interview, unedited, so it does go by starts and stops. LtCol William R Corson USMC (Ret) (1925-2000) was a very interesting guy, a tank officer who commanded 3rd Tk Bn in Vietnam (1966-67) and was placed in charge of the Combined Action Platoons in northern I Corps region. A year after returning from Vietnam he retired and published his first of several interesting books, The Betrayal [later followed by several on Cold War Intel, etc.]

 

As one review put it

Nobody who cares about American foreign policy and the repeated messes we have exacerbated can reasonably articulate our recent history or analyze current problems if they have not read Bill Corson's, The Betrayal. LtCol Corson was a phenomenal US Marine intelligence officer who the establishment, including US Marine Corps headquarters hated for his refusal to shut up and parrot the drivel that passed for policy and reporting during the Vietnam War. I was fortunate to meet him as I worked in Combined Action for part of my tour in the mid 1960's as a Marine. An honest, independent and thoughtful man. He wrote clearly and concisely of what needed to be done to influence events in Vietnam, condemning the road to defeat and waste that we were on and, unlike so many critics then and now, GAVE A DETAILED alternative plan for what needed to be done to provide a hope of success. The Powers that Be threatened him with courtsmartial if he proceeded to publish this book, but they got lost in their own b.s. and the book came out. Bill retired and tried to keep the message out there for those really concerned. The idiocy of our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan was an unnecessary repetition of our hubris and ignorance displayed in Vietnam.

 

 

 

Bill spent much more time in intel and covert ops than tanks. He was seconded to the CIA on several occasions and was always accessible later in life to his former students and colleagues, usually at his usual lunch table at the Hay-Adams Hotel in Washington DC. I had my study group at the Staff College invite him as our mess night guest, and thought the faculty might lynch me for the gorgeous conversation circle that he presided over before dinner. But I was saved when the Guest of Honor, Jim Webb saw him at our table and gave a shoutout to him before beginning his own talk.

 

He is both acerbic and entertaining, I think you will see:

 

https://youtu.be/YPy3i2Puau4

 

 

Also:

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01676R001600030006-8.pdf

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/20/us/william-corson-74-marine-and-critic-of-us-on-vietnam.html

Edited February 3, 2018 by Ken Estes

[Stuart Galbraith]

Sounds like a good book.

I was reading some years ago a book on the 72 Easter Offensive by a Colonel Turley of the USMC, and it was something of a shock the vibe in it of the bad relations between the Army and the USMC. Turley was an advisor to the ARVN in the north when the offensive kicked off, and wasnt able to do much other than watch the map and make notes. Eventually someone sent the order 'Land the alert force', which would have recommitted US Ground Forces to Vietnam. He was summoned to Saigon, and grilled by Creighton Abrams, whom strangely seemed to be shaving at the time and conducted the interview through an intermediary. Anyway, it appears he convinced them him didnt issue the order, which was never followed anyway but it seemingly caused a political kerfuffle in Washington, which presumably meant Kissinger was having kittens again. Abrams got on with his ablutions, and Turley went back to advising the ARVN Marine Corp.

A very strange war it has to be said....

Edited February 3, 2018 by Stuart Galbraith

[JWB]

The Kissinger "Decent Interval" was always in play. The govt did not oppose Congressional 'will.'

I don't quite understand this post. Ford wanted that interval to be more and more decent by making it longer and longer. Congress refused to allow any more US action in the region and refused to restore the $300 million that was cut from the aid budget. That being said it was possible for Saigon to bet that money using other means. The Vietnamization program had provided SVN with some expensive equipment that was not usable and/or sub optimal. The F-5 was was the best example. Saigon had nearly 200 most of which sat out the for various reasons. They cost $2 million new and probably would have fetched close to that on the used jet market. Saigon could also have gone hat in hand various third parties for war charity like Iran, KSA, Kuwait, SK, and even Israel and Brazil.

[JWB]

Had he been President, the NV would have been wary of another 11 day war, so they would have threaded more lightly but in the end with end result. If Nixon lasts hs terms you still get Carter.

Nixon was still in office when Congress passed that amendment. Giap knew the US military could not intervene and began planning the final offensive,

[JWB]

https://youtu.be/YPy3i2Puau4

 

The most interesting part is how he described the NVA commanders great understanding and knowledge of when to fight and when to refuse battle. Giap said "When the Americans have deployed 500,000 troops into South Vietnam then we will have won the war." It is humiliating to learn the enemies commanders are smarter than our own.

Edited February 3, 2018 by JWB

[RETAC21]

 

The Kissinger "Decent Interval" was always in play. The govt did not oppose Congressional 'will.'

I don't quite understand this post. Ford wanted that interval to be more and more decent by making it longer and longer. Congress refused to allow any more US action in the region and refused to restore the $300 million that was cut from the aid budget. That being said it was possible for Saigon to bet that money using other means. The Vietnamization program had provided SVN with some expensive equipment that was not usable and/or sub optimal. The F-5 was was the best example. Saigon had nearly 200 most of which sat out the for various reasons. They cost $2 million new and probably would have fetched close to that on the used jet market. Saigon could also have gone hat in hand various third parties for war charity like Iran, KSA, Kuwait, SK, and even Israel and Brazil.

 

 

US provided hardware cannot be sold without US permission. Those F-5s eventually found new users when sold by the Communist Vietnam government though.

[JWB]

 

 

The Kissinger "Decent Interval" was always in play. The govt did not oppose Congressional 'will.'

I don't quite understand this post. Ford wanted that interval to be more and more decent by making it longer and longer. Congress refused to allow any more US action in the region and refused to restore the $300 million that was cut from the aid budget. That being said it was possible for Saigon to bet that money using other means. The Vietnamization program had provided SVN with some expensive equipment that was not usable and/or sub optimal. The F-5 was was the best example. Saigon had nearly 200 most of which sat out the for various reasons. They cost $2 million new and probably would have fetched close to that on the used jet market. Saigon could also have gone hat in hand various third parties for war charity like Iran, KSA, Kuwait, SK, and even Israel and Brazil.

 

 

US provided hardware cannot be sold without US permission. Those F-5s eventually found new users when sold by the Communist Vietnam government though.

 

That would only require permission from the US State Department.

[R011]

I doubt that the RVN was forced to take F-5s against their will. If there had been a more suitable US aircraft in production for their perceived needs, they probably would have ordered it. If they had anticipated American cut off of aid, they might have ordered consumables like ammo and spare parts rather than new aircraft

Edited February 4, 2018 by R011

[RETAC21]

 

Had he been President, the NV would have been wary of another 11 day war, so they would have threaded more lightly but in the end with end result. If Nixon lasts hs terms you still get Carter.

Nixon was still in office when Congress passed that amendment. Giap knew the US military could not intervene and began planning the final offensive,

 

 

The War powers act would still gives Nixon 60 days to bomb NV again. In the first iteration it only took 11 days for the NV to cave in.

[JWB]

 

 

Had he been President, the NV would have been wary of another 11 day war, so they would have threaded more lightly but in the end with end result. If Nixon lasts hs terms you still get Carter.

Nixon was still in office when Congress passed that amendment. Giap knew the US military could not intervene and began planning the final offensive,

 

 

The War powers act would still gives Nixon 60 days to bomb NV again. In the first iteration it only took 11 days for the NV to cave in.

 

War Powers Act did not overturn or in any way modify the Case-Church amendment.

[JWB]

I doubt that the RVN was forced to take F-5s against their will. If there had been a more suitable US aircraft in production for their perceived needs, they probably would have ordered it. If they had anticipated American cut off of aid, they might have ordered consumables like ammo and spare parts rather than new aircraft

It is a little more hazy than "forced". It was more along the lines of "here, take this because we think you need it even if you don't". What they wanted was more A-1s and a wing of F-4s. The former because it was the ideal attack plane for a poor country. The latter because they were 2 seaters that could carry Mavericks.

 

Even before all of that the government of Cambodia sought and was denied M41 tanks. Spring of 1970 the traitor Prince Sihanouk was deposed by the National Assembly with Lon Nol given emergency powers. He wanted to destroy the NVA encampments then seal the border with Laos. Instead the US government hesitated then decided to invade along with ARVN. That action failed to destroy enemy forces in Cambodia but it destabilized Lon. To make matters worse general Theodore Mataxis insisted upon complete Americanization of the Cambodian army which caused chaos.

 

Those two examples are just a small part of a series of worst possible decisions by different US administrations that turned a small isolated insurgency into a regional war that went on for decades.

[R011]

Did they have a sustainable supply of Skyraiders to give the RVN? I have the impression they were getting to the end if their useful lives?

[Dawes]

The A-1's were pretty much worn out by 1970-71 and the SA-7's arrival made them sitting ducks anyway.

 

Whatever Vietnam may have been politically, it was a convienient testing laboratory for a myriad of weapons.

[JWB]

The A-1's were pretty much worn out by 1970-71 and the SA-7's arrival made them sitting ducks anyway.

 

Whatever Vietnam may have been politically, it was a convienient testing laboratory for a myriad of weapons.

Yes to both. By 1973 every air worthy A-1 had been transferred to the AFRVN.

[Dawes]

IIRC, the VNAF's last hurrah was an AC-119 and a pair of A-1's defending Saigon (?).

[Brian Kennedy]

 

The most interesting part is how he described the NVA commanders great understanding and knowledge of when to fight and when to refuse battle. Giap said "When the Americans have deployed 500,000 troops into South Vietnam then we will have won the war." It is humiliating to learn the enemies commanders are smarter than our own.

Its kind of a cliche to say that the North Vietnamese command fought the war holistically (military plus political) while the US command basically acted like it was a football game with points and stuff, but its kind of true.

[Brian Kennedy]

 

The most interesting part is how he described the NVA commanders great understanding and knowledge of when to fight and when to refuse battle. Giap said "When the Americans have deployed 500,000 troops into South Vietnam then we will have won the war." It is humiliating to learn the enemies commanders are smarter than our own.

Its kind of a cliche to say that the North Vietnamese command fought the war holistically (military plus political) while the US command basically acted like it was a football game with points and stuff, but its kind of true.

[JWB]

 

 

The most interesting part is how he described the NVA commanders great understanding and knowledge of when to fight and when to refuse battle. Giap said "When the Americans have deployed 500,000 troops into South Vietnam then we will have won the war." It is humiliating to learn the enemies commanders are smarter than our own.

Its kind of a cliche to say that the North Vietnamese command fought the war holistically (military plus political) while the US command basically acted like it was a football game with points and stuff, but its kind of true.

 

Commenters of the day compared the body count ratio to a corporate profit/loss statement.

 

That being said every war requires some type of metric to measure progress and/or failure. The body count was probably the worst way to do that because it was so very easy to cheat. They would have been better to use a weapons count with a point system. Say one point for a grenade. Two points for a grenade launcher. Three points for a rocket launcher etc.......

[DKTanker]

Commenters of the day compared the body count ratio to a corporate profit/loss statement.

 

I do so remember having dinner with Walter and discussing the day's body count.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Thought this was pretty interesting. Id heard the name Lansdale before, I just hadnt realised he was as smart as this.

 

[shep854]

 

Commenters of the day compared the body count ratio to a corporate profit/loss statement.

 

I do so remember having dinner with Walter and discussing the day's body count.

 

That was also a nightly feature of the Huntley-Brinkley Report (my family favored NBC), with chart.

Edited March 5, 2018 by shep854

[JWB]

Thought this was pretty interesting. Id heard the name Lansdale before, I just hadnt realised he was as smart as this.

 

I watched this twice from CSPAN. Lansdale was a very smart man but he was misdirected. The problem in Vietnam was not failure to pacify the country side. The problem was the inability to interdict the HMT. I have been searching to no avail about why the people in charge never ordered the southern edge of Laos to be defoliated. About 500,000 gallons of defoliants were applied on Laos but they were sprayed largely on crops but not on transit routes.

http://www.agentorangerecord.com/images/uploads/resources/studies/AgentOrangeLaos.pdf

 

The other major flaw was failing to address the enormous imbalance between the ARVN and the NVA. Nixon's Vietnamization was little more than theater.

Edited March 5, 2018 by JWB

[Stuart Galbraith]

I still think they are onto something when they said killing Diem was the turning point.

[shep854]

Had Johnson been serious and had the harbors mined in '65, Rolling Thunder might well have been decisive.

[JWB]

I still think they are onto something when they said killing Diem was the turning point.

I wonder what would have happened if he was allowed to stay in power. His mis-rule alienated the public and strengthened the VC but removing him lead to nearly a half decade of near anarchy at the top.