When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[rmgill]

4 hours ago, Murph said:

Justice or vengeance for killing a scumbag?

A common theme in the left’s drive is revenge. 

[EchoFiveMike]

When are you soft handed, self deluding naive people going to accept that the only reason these lying fucks rotting the guts out of our former country are alive is because of the police state protecting them? 

The solution to despicable lying fucks has always been, and always will be violence.  This is absolute.  There is no short cut, there is no cheating the facts. 

You often have to do unpleasant shit because it's necessary; just because it's awful doesn't make it any less necessary.  Civilization is hard work.  S/F....Ken M 

 

[urbanoid]

 

[rmgill]

Doughnut operator is not going to like that one. 

[JWB]

 

[Skywalkre]

On 7/4/2023 at 8:48 AM, Murph said:

Accountability is no big deal, you, on the other hand think All Cops are Barsterds, completely evil, need to be abolished, and blah blah blah left wing BS.  Again, I would have just a scintilla of respect for you if you had actually DONE the job, or even attempted to have an open mind, and look at all sides.  But no, you are a predictable Abolish the Police lefty who only wants the police to keep the plebs down so they vote, act and live the way You and your lefty buddies want them to so that the Left keeps power. 

Murph... I've stated I think a majority of police are not good people and shouldn't be wearing the badge.  I made that argument yet again just a few weeks ago.  You can quote me on that.  I'll own it... but everything else you're writing about in this paragraph is utter BS.  You can't quote me on any of it.  You talk about respect but don't have the decency to even engage me on or acknowledge what I actually say.

On 7/4/2023 at 8:48 AM, Murph said:

That loathsome scum in Florida, he deserved to lose his job, did he break the law?  Apparently not.  If you have ever sat in a trial, you might have an open mind instead of leftwing propaganda.  Ok, so he retired, apparently their Civil Service rules allow that.  Who voted those in? Ask yourself that question. 

The charges against Scot Peterson were a long shot from the beginning.  The prosecution was pushing the boundaries of a law they felt offered some wiggle room.  Whether the jury rejected that interpretation of the law or felt it applied but Peterson's defense overrode that we may never know.

As for the rules that let him retire... the policies that allowed him to leave and keep his pension.  Yeah... who do you think pushes for said rules?  The police unions.  We've had too many examples here in the Valley of attempting to correct or reign in outrageous costs due to loopholes and poorly written rules regarding police pensions.  Said ballot measures were often met with "you better not vote no or else you'll be in danger!"  Literally local police threatening the local population because how dare us reign in abusive pension policies?  Give me a break...

And yes, I've sat on trials.  Unlike too many I know I don't shy away from jury duty.  The last experience ended fairly quickly after a mistral was quickly declared after Phoenix PD and the prosecutor were caught in some no-no behavior on the witness stand after it looked like they were railroading an innocent man. 

On 7/4/2023 at 8:48 AM, Murph said:

Don't just be an NPC.  Actually think. 

This is rich coming from you.  Not too long ago you posted that fabricated Atlantic article.  You often make bizarre, barely intelligible rants about politicians or events that can't be backed up... and when challenged on what might have actually happened you just don't respond.  And in this post, like too many here on TN, you simply make up positions I supposedly hold that I've never actually said. 

The gall you have to come out and make this statement... go look in a mirror first before saying this to someone else. 

[Skywalkre]

On 7/5/2023 at 9:55 AM, R011 said:

The Florida cop should have received some real punishment, but it's not as if the police is the military and he can't be fined, court martialled, sent to a stockade, and dishonourably discharged anymore than any other civilian.  It's disappointing he quit rather than wait to be fired, but that's the breaks.  Perhaps he can be found liable in a civil action, but otherwise, he skated.

Again, who's pushing for these policies and laws that basically result in police not being held accountable?  The police unions.  I have to reiterate something that was said a little further up in this thread - all public unions should be outlawed.

As for the civil suit... I thought I found an article stating that had already been tried but it was thrown out?  I'm unable to find the same article or any other claiming as such.

As for accountability... I was looking up to see what has happened after Uvalde.  It seems all punishment/firings have been doled out at this point but I can't get a firm figure.  Seems just 2-7 officers were actually fired (I'm all ears if someone has a firm figure to quote).  I'm curious how folks feel when they see that number.  The biggest police clusterfuck in my lifetime and just 2-7 appear to have been fired.  That right there is proof drastic overhaul is needed.

On 7/5/2023 at 9:55 AM, R011 said:

My understanding is that the cops from a neighbouring service showed up as quick as soon as they could and tried to do their jobs properly.  We hear about the bad cops and forces but there are good ones out there too and we shouldn't forget that.

I'm a critic of the situation in this country surrounding police conduct and even I admit there are good ones... they're just the minority.  The sad reality is this thread just scratches the surface of the various examples of misconduct that go on in this country.

What concerns me is there's little reason for the good ones to go into the job now.  As mentioned I've seen countless accounts elsewhere (reddit is a great place to read up on these when stories hit the front page there) where people becoming police for all the right reasons quit... and oftentimes it's because of the toxic culture from their fellow officers.

[Skywalkre]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:25 PM, urbanoid said:

 

An old link but I've heard this figure quite a bit:

Quote

The Department of Justice estimates that American police officers shoot 10,000 pet dogs in the line of duty each year. It is impossible to ascertain a reliable number, however, because most law enforcement agencies do not maintain accurate records of animal killings. The tally may be substantially higher, and some suggest it could reach six figures.

https://scholars.unh.edu/unh_lr/vol17/iss1/18/

Just... ugh...

[rmgill]

Feds too. The mantra about possible NFA  violations is, ‘what do you want? The BATFE to come and shoot your dog?’

ATF agents have been known to shoot dogs that were locked in cages because the barked at then too much  

One of the current jokes is to have a stuffed dog with Tannerite in your foyer. 

[Tim the Tank Nut]

I would die to protect my pets without giving it a second thought.

This is one area where LEO gets no sympathy from me at all.

 

[R011]

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Again, who's pushing for these policies and laws that basically result in police not being held accountable?  The police unions.  I have to reiterate something that was said a little further up in this thread - all public unions should be outlawed.

As for the civil suit... I thought I found an article stating that had already been tried but it was thrown out?  I'm unable to find the same article or any other claiming as such.

As for accountability... I was looking up to see what has happened after Uvalde.  It seems all punishment/firings have been doled out at this point but I can't get a firm figure.  Seems just 2-7 officers were actually fired (I'm all ears if someone has a firm figure to quote).  I'm curious how folks feel when they see that number.  The biggest police clusterfuck in my lifetime and just 2-7 appear to have been fired.  That right there is proof drastic overhaul is needed.

I'm a critic of the situation in this country surrounding police conduct and even I admit there are good ones... they're just the minority.  The sad reality is this thread just scratches the surface of the various examples of misconduct that go on in this country.

What concerns me is there's little reason for the good ones to go into the job now.  As mentioned I've seen countless accounts elsewhere (reddit is a great place to read up on these when stories hit the front page there) where people becoming police for all the right reasons quit... and oftentimes it's because of the toxic culture from their fellow officers.

Normal employment law.  Police aren't military so they can't be tried under anything but civilian law and a contract is a contract.  It seems there was a civil suit, but it was dismissed on the grounds that the police do not have a legal duty to protect citizens.  The federal government and FBI has to pay substantial damages for failure to properly follow the law in permitting the murderer to buy firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkland_high_school_shooting

[Murph]

I have shot two dogs, one a mastiff which had been aggression trained and had attacked a neighbor, and was attacking me.  The other was a "fighting" pit bull that came after myself and a Deputy US Marshall serving a murder warrant.  As for those who shoot dogs just to shoot them, no sympathy for them.

 

As for Skywalkre, I would suggest since he thinks all cops are bad, never call one, never interact with one, and above all never request one to save him or a family member in need.  I would say that 97% of cops are good guys, but they become what their political masters make them, probably 99% democrat.  I hope you never have to call a cop, instead call a social worker please.  

[Skywalkre]

3 hours ago, R011 said:

It seems there was a civil suit, but it was dismissed on the grounds that the police do not have a legal duty to protect citizens.  The federal government and FBI has to pay substantial damages for failure to properly follow the law in permitting the murderer to buy firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkland_high_school_shooting

Heh... I didn't think about checking the wiki for the actual incident.  Thanks for finding that.

As for the bolded bit... you see this brought up on places like reddit quite a bit.  Even for a site like that that leans left you get a lot of support for the 2A because the reality is you can't trust police will help you, since they have no obligation, so best be prepared to do it yourself.

ETA - Per the contract bit... that still comes down to unions pushing for said contracts and politicians unwilling to push back or voters supporting it (for blindly being 'pro cop' without looking at the issue).  In the state I live in an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.  That doesn't apply to cops (and most government employees).  No reason that shouldn't be the case as well for them.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Skywalkre]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

As for Skywalkre, I would suggest since he thinks all cops are bad

And yet again you completely fabricate and push BS.  I'll own up to what I've said and I repeated it in my post above (and it's not what you're claiming here).  You keep pushing 'respect' yet don't have the decency to engage honestly in a discussion yourself.  Either your reading comprehension is abysmal or you're purposefully being disingenuous.  To quote you, "Don't just be an NPC.  Actually think."  You're more than welcome to start thinking at any point on a lot of the things you post about.  It would do the quality of what comes across here on TN wonders if you started.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Skywalkre

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

As for the bolded bit... you see this brought up on places like reddit quite a bit.  Even for a site like that that leans left you get a lot of support for the 2A because the reality is you can't trust police will help you, since they have no obligation, so best be prepared to do it yourself.

Reading about Warren VS DC back in the 90s was what spurred me away from gun control entirely. To hear talking heads on the left or in the political class say as a lie ‘you don’t beed guns, the police will protect you’ just puts a cherry on it.  

 

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

ETA - Per the contract bit... that still comes down to unions pushing for said contracts and politicians unwilling to push back or voters supporting it (for blindly being 'pro cop' without looking at the issue). 
 

We all know the GOP is the largest supporter of unions don’t we? SEIU, who do they donate to? 

[R011]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Heh... I didn't think about checking the wiki for the actual incident.  Thanks for finding that.

As for the bolded bit... you see this brought up on places like reddit quite a bit.  Even for a site like that that leans left you get a lot of support for the 2A because the reality is you can't trust police will help you, since they have no obligation, so best be prepared to do it yourself.

ETA - Per the contract bit... that still comes down to unions pushing for said contracts and politicians unwilling to push back or voters supporting it (for blindly being 'pro cop' without looking at the issue).  In the state I live in an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.  That doesn't apply to cops (and most government employees).  No reason that shouldn't be the case as well for them.

Any kind of employment contract that mentions a pension will requirew the people responsible fpor paying to pay on reirement no matter what.  It hardly matters if it's a police union, non-police union, or individually negotiated one.  You coiuld try hiring cops without having some sort of pension plan, but good luck with that.

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

We all know the GOP is the largest supporter of unions don’t we? SEIU, who do they donate to? 

It could well end up that way, actually.  Union members were a big reason Trump was able to pull out the narrow wins in the Rust Belt back in '16.  Peter Zeihan has been talking about how we're in the middle of a political realignment with who makes up our two parties... and he's already mentioned it looks like unions could end up falling under the Rs (as in their members vote R despite what R leadership may say).

[Skywalkre]

31 minutes ago, R011 said:

You coiuld try hiring cops without having some sort of pension plan, but good luck with that.

There's nothing special about police work (danger, education, training, whatever) that requires the profession to have to have a pension to get people.  A majority of Americans have moved on with their working lives without having one.  The fact police and others still do has more to do with them leveraging legacy support (any effort to reign in costs, like seen here in the Valley multiple times, met with "but why do you hate public safety?!") than with a need for it.  Honestly, if you got rid of that, it may help get rid of/dissuade the folks we don't want wearing the badge.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

It could well end up that way, actually.  Union members were a big reason Trump was able to pull out the narrow wins in the Rust Belt back in '16. 

It wasn't the UNIONS that supported him. It was the Union MEMBERSHIP who want employment over Union Membership. 

You do grok that there's a difference right? 

[R011]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

There's nothing special about police work (danger, education, training, whatever) that requires the profession to have to have a pension to get people.

Nope.  But you still won't get people to become cops if there's no pension plan. at th end of a career.  And why shouldn't they have pensions like any other public servant and most private sector workers?

[rmgill]

Self directed IRAs might make more sense. The job putting the money aside with matching in the same way a pension might work. 
 

Can a public sector department not pay into a 401k?

Edited July 11, 2023 by rmgill

[R011]

44 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Self directed IRAs might make more sense. The job putting the money aside with matching in the same way a pension might work. 
 

Can a public sector department not pay into a 401k?

The grievance is that he'll have a financially comfortable retirement instead of being punished.  It doesn't much matter how that pension is provided.

[rmgill]

15 minutes ago, R011 said:

The grievance is that he'll have a financially comfortable retirement instead of being punished.  It doesn't much matter how that pension is provided.

Ok.so how do you strip someone of property (money) without conviction of a crime ? 

[EchoFiveMike]

You seize it in civil court using the same limp dick "preponderance of evidence" rules that the USG uses to fuck the public.  S/F....Ken M

[Skywalkre]

18 hours ago, rmgill said:

It wasn't the UNIONS that supported him. It was the Union MEMBERSHIP who want employment over Union Membership. 

You do grok that there's a difference right? 

I do... because I specifically said union members voted for him.  If that continues the leadership will follow and Rs would likely change their stance on unions as well.