When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[Murph]

I have shot two dogs, one a mastiff which had been aggression trained and had attacked a neighbor, and was attacking me.  The other was a "fighting" pit bull that came after myself and a Deputy US Marshall serving a murder warrant.  As for those who shoot dogs just to shoot them, no sympathy for them.

 

As for Skywalkre, I would suggest since he thinks all cops are bad, never call one, never interact with one, and above all never request one to save him or a family member in need.  I would say that 97% of cops are good guys, but they become what their political masters make them, probably 99% democrat.  I hope you never have to call a cop, instead call a social worker please.  

[Skywalkre]

3 hours ago, R011 said:

It seems there was a civil suit, but it was dismissed on the grounds that the police do not have a legal duty to protect citizens.  The federal government and FBI has to pay substantial damages for failure to properly follow the law in permitting the murderer to buy firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkland_high_school_shooting

Heh... I didn't think about checking the wiki for the actual incident.  Thanks for finding that.

As for the bolded bit... you see this brought up on places like reddit quite a bit.  Even for a site like that that leans left you get a lot of support for the 2A because the reality is you can't trust police will help you, since they have no obligation, so best be prepared to do it yourself.

ETA - Per the contract bit... that still comes down to unions pushing for said contracts and politicians unwilling to push back or voters supporting it (for blindly being 'pro cop' without looking at the issue).  In the state I live in an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.  That doesn't apply to cops (and most government employees).  No reason that shouldn't be the case as well for them.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Skywalkre]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

As for Skywalkre, I would suggest since he thinks all cops are bad

And yet again you completely fabricate and push BS.  I'll own up to what I've said and I repeated it in my post above (and it's not what you're claiming here).  You keep pushing 'respect' yet don't have the decency to engage honestly in a discussion yourself.  Either your reading comprehension is abysmal or you're purposefully being disingenuous.  To quote you, "Don't just be an NPC.  Actually think."  You're more than welcome to start thinking at any point on a lot of the things you post about.  It would do the quality of what comes across here on TN wonders if you started.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Skywalkre

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

As for the bolded bit... you see this brought up on places like reddit quite a bit.  Even for a site like that that leans left you get a lot of support for the 2A because the reality is you can't trust police will help you, since they have no obligation, so best be prepared to do it yourself.

Reading about Warren VS DC back in the 90s was what spurred me away from gun control entirely. To hear talking heads on the left or in the political class say as a lie ‘you don’t beed guns, the police will protect you’ just puts a cherry on it.  

 

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

ETA - Per the contract bit... that still comes down to unions pushing for said contracts and politicians unwilling to push back or voters supporting it (for blindly being 'pro cop' without looking at the issue). 
 

We all know the GOP is the largest supporter of unions don’t we? SEIU, who do they donate to? 

[R011]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Heh... I didn't think about checking the wiki for the actual incident.  Thanks for finding that.

As for the bolded bit... you see this brought up on places like reddit quite a bit.  Even for a site like that that leans left you get a lot of support for the 2A because the reality is you can't trust police will help you, since they have no obligation, so best be prepared to do it yourself.

ETA - Per the contract bit... that still comes down to unions pushing for said contracts and politicians unwilling to push back or voters supporting it (for blindly being 'pro cop' without looking at the issue).  In the state I live in an employer can fire you for any reason at any time.  That doesn't apply to cops (and most government employees).  No reason that shouldn't be the case as well for them.

Any kind of employment contract that mentions a pension will requirew the people responsible fpor paying to pay on reirement no matter what.  It hardly matters if it's a police union, non-police union, or individually negotiated one.  You coiuld try hiring cops without having some sort of pension plan, but good luck with that.

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

We all know the GOP is the largest supporter of unions don’t we? SEIU, who do they donate to? 

It could well end up that way, actually.  Union members were a big reason Trump was able to pull out the narrow wins in the Rust Belt back in '16.  Peter Zeihan has been talking about how we're in the middle of a political realignment with who makes up our two parties... and he's already mentioned it looks like unions could end up falling under the Rs (as in their members vote R despite what R leadership may say).

[Skywalkre]

31 minutes ago, R011 said:

You coiuld try hiring cops without having some sort of pension plan, but good luck with that.

There's nothing special about police work (danger, education, training, whatever) that requires the profession to have to have a pension to get people.  A majority of Americans have moved on with their working lives without having one.  The fact police and others still do has more to do with them leveraging legacy support (any effort to reign in costs, like seen here in the Valley multiple times, met with "but why do you hate public safety?!") than with a need for it.  Honestly, if you got rid of that, it may help get rid of/dissuade the folks we don't want wearing the badge.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

It could well end up that way, actually.  Union members were a big reason Trump was able to pull out the narrow wins in the Rust Belt back in '16. 

It wasn't the UNIONS that supported him. It was the Union MEMBERSHIP who want employment over Union Membership. 

You do grok that there's a difference right? 

[R011]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

There's nothing special about police work (danger, education, training, whatever) that requires the profession to have to have a pension to get people.

Nope.  But you still won't get people to become cops if there's no pension plan. at th end of a career.  And why shouldn't they have pensions like any other public servant and most private sector workers?

[rmgill]

Self directed IRAs might make more sense. The job putting the money aside with matching in the same way a pension might work. 
 

Can a public sector department not pay into a 401k?

Edited July 11, 2023 by rmgill

[R011]

44 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Self directed IRAs might make more sense. The job putting the money aside with matching in the same way a pension might work. 
 

Can a public sector department not pay into a 401k?

The grievance is that he'll have a financially comfortable retirement instead of being punished.  It doesn't much matter how that pension is provided.

[rmgill]

15 minutes ago, R011 said:

The grievance is that he'll have a financially comfortable retirement instead of being punished.  It doesn't much matter how that pension is provided.

Ok.so how do you strip someone of property (money) without conviction of a crime ? 

[EchoFiveMike]

You seize it in civil court using the same limp dick "preponderance of evidence" rules that the USG uses to fuck the public.  S/F....Ken M

[Skywalkre]

18 hours ago, rmgill said:

It wasn't the UNIONS that supported him. It was the Union MEMBERSHIP who want employment over Union Membership. 

You do grok that there's a difference right? 

I do... because I specifically said union members voted for him.  If that continues the leadership will follow and Rs would likely change their stance on unions as well.

[Skywalkre]

18 hours ago, R011 said:

Nope.  But you still won't get people to become cops if there's no pension plan. at th end of a career.  And why shouldn't they have pensions like any other public servant and most private sector workers?

Pensions have basically disappeared completely from the private sector here in the US.  The % of working age adults in the US who have access to pensions is in the low teens (which is a similar % to the number of Americans who work for government... so basically some government employees and a small number of private sector union employees can get one).

Cops without pensions could do what every other American does - plan for retirement, take advantage of whatever plan they're offered (there are similar plans for government employees to a 401(k)), put money aside themselves, etc.  Heaven forbid they may have to live like us peons...

[R011]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Pensions have basically disappeared completely from the private sector here in the US.  The % of working age adults in the US who have access to pensions is in the low teens (which is a similar % to the number of Americans who work for government... so basically some government employees and a small number of private sector union employees can get one).

Cops without pensions could do what every other American does - plan for retirement, take advantage of whatever plan they're offered (there are similar plans for government employees to a 401(k)), put money aside themselves, etc.  Heaven forbid they may have to live like us peons...

Why should cops be treated differently from any other public employees?  Would you have been happy if this guy's pernsion had been a 401(k)?  What difference would that have made?

[X-Files]

On 7/8/2023 at 4:25 PM, urbanoid said:

 

Wonder why the flabby owner was screaming "you killed mah dawg" when the poor animal was still dragging it's useless hips behind it and obviously in pain.   Priorities, lady?

Anyways,  lack of followup is irritating - 

Dixie, a 3-and-a-half-year-old golden retriever and Labrador mix, was shot dead by Elliott Palmer of the Lorain Police Department last Sunday.

Palmer has since been placed on leave, but a petition demanding his removal from the force has gained more than 25,000 signatures with words of support coming in from all over

.#JusticeforDixie petition demanding fire of cop who killed golden retriever goes viral (nypost.com)

 

Predictable doxxing is predictable

Who is Elliott Palmer? Lorain police officer accused of shooting a dog - Opoyi

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by X-Files

[rmgill]

5 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I do... because I specifically said union members voted for him.  If that continues the leadership will follow and Rs would likely change their stance on unions as well.

Lets look at the 2020 election. Where did the Unions donate? 

[JWB]

Texas DPS release video of traffic stop that led city officials to suspend department’s partnership with Austin police | Watch (msn.com)

[DB]

On 7/11/2023 at 6:34 PM, rmgill said:

Ok.so how do you strip someone of property (money) without conviction of a crime ? 

Civil suit might gain traction in some cases. No idea about this one.

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, DB said:

Civil suit might gain traction in some cases. No idea about this one.

How in the face of cases like Warren, Castlerock and others? 

[DB]

Not a question for me, Ryan. I don't obsess over the specific details of individual cases, I'm just throwing out the point that civil suits might offer a way of depriving an asshole from continuing to roll in the cash in some cases.

[Ssnake]

7 hours ago, JWB said:

Texas DPS release video of traffic stop that led city officials to suspend department’s partnership with Austin police | Watch (msn.com)

OK, I'll bite. What am I missing in this video (given this thread's title), what's the context?

[Tim Sielbeck]

Evil DPS stopped a very put upon citizen of Austin then had the audacity to search his(?) car and find something to arrest him for that was more serious than the reason he was initially stopped for all within the city limits of Austin.

[rmgill]

9 hours ago, DB said:

Not a question for me, Ryan. I don't obsess over the specific details of individual cases, I'm just throwing out the point that civil suits might offer a way of depriving an asshole from continuing to roll in the cash in some cases.

The devil is in the details. 
 

In the UK, if the police fail to protect someone, can you sue? If not, why not? 
 

If you cannot, how can you hold an individual responsible if his department and the state cannot be held thus accountable? 

Another example/angle… legislatures can’t vote someone guilty. Do you know why? 

Edited July 14, 2023 by rmgill