When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[NickM]

11 minutes ago, Murph said:

And where is this?  Looks justifiable to me:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1672388925980278784

I wonder what donut says. Anyway, f/k-face got his face f/ked.

[Skywalkre]

/sigh... this website ate, yet again, a post I spent far more time preparing.  My apologies if any of this comes across as... short.  It's frustration with the medium.

2 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

now we come to it

"just look at any police union rep"

a public union representative

 

to quote Azetbur "if you could only hear yourselves...".

I'm not quite... following you here.  Union reps are elected and represent a majority of their officer base.  There's another saying that goes along the line of "you should listen and believe when people tell you what they are."  Some of the comments by union reps after these events and after not guilty rulings (that were the wrong rulings even in the eyes of most here like the first incident in this thread) are oftentimes... troubling if not outright disturbing.

3 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

I also won't defend the dishonest law enforcement in the "R" controlled cities although I struggle to think of a major city that is controlled by Republicans.  I guess there's an outlier for everything. Dave Filoni works for Disney so there's definitely an outlier for everything.

There basically aren't any major cities run by Rs.  If you look up the most populous cities in the US it's overwhelmingly D.  What does happen in states that lean or are dominant R (like here in AZ) is that the suburbs are run by Rs.  As I've pointed out with several incidents here in the Valley... doesn't mean those police are any better.

As to Dave Filoni, I will have to vehemently disagree with you on that one.  As a lifelong, diehard Star Wars fan the only 'canon' material for me is the OT, Rogue One, and Andor and I'm pretty sure Filoni was not a major player in any of those.  😜

3 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

I'm not trying to hammer you on this.  I'm trying to make it clear that the policies you support inevitably lead to where we are.  It's not that you don't have the right to support whatever is best for you.  You even have the right to support what's worse for you.  More terrible still is that you have the right to support what is worse for everyone else too. It just seems ironic to miss the connection.

You're good.  You're one of the few remaining folks on here that can engage in an honest discussion.

With that being said... you'll have to expand on the "policies you support" bit.  I'm getting uneasy DKTanker vibes of implying something I've not actually said.

What I have been adamant about in this thread over the years is that I don't believe in a two tier society where police get special treatment.  Despite what some others on here have said that's been the painful and blatant reality (at least up through 2020... pretty sure things haven't equalized in such a short timeframe but in some ways at least they're heading in the right direction).

3 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

I'll offer another quote: "Pain, suffering, death... that's what war is all about.  You've made it so neat that you've had it for 500 years..."  It's the same with societal crime; taking away the guardrails of what makes a polite society has had effects all outside of the initial goals.  Being in Law Enforcement needs to be a "high calling".  It can't be a no win scenario for the officers or no one will answer that calling.  The union mentality is us vs them everywhere else its tried.  Why wouldn't it be the same in this case?

First, the whole bit about "these cities are run by D's and they're failing so clearly it's the D's fault."  There's another way to look at it... what happened in the history of these cities that Ds are the only ones remaining and unable to right the ship?

Second, not all D cities are hellholes.  We had this exchange recently where the notion that NYC was this violent hellhole was shown to be... not remotely close (by some metrics NYC is better off than some R controlled cities).  NYC once was a hellhole... but that was decades ago.

I'm in total agreement that LE needs to be a 'high calling'.  I've often said we have another group in this country the police could learn from who also wear a uniform and serve that 'higher calling' - the military.  So what makes the military different where police are failing?  For starters they have standards and hold their people to it, actually police their own, and realize they're protecting 'us'.  They also realize that they eventually take off the uniform.

The 'us vs them' mentality... there's just no excuse for it.  It's dishonest hyperbole which leads to a toxic culture.

The culture bit is key.  I'm a huge fan of reddit because when these police misconduct stories hit (and this thread has only seen a fraction of them) you get countless accounts of people who became police for all the right reasons... and quit.  The reason wasn't this notion of a 'no win scenario' but rather once they became officers they saw the toxicity and entitlement of their fellow officers, were isolated if not outright harassed, and eventually turned in their badge.

We're finally starting to hear of real recruitment issues with police and I think a big part is the folks who would be cops for the right reasons have learned what this culture is like and don't want to be a part of it.  The lack of recruitment should be telling because the stories of police misconduct have been in the news for decades now yet police usually didn't have any issues getting recruits because pay was (and still is) better (10-20% above the average where they work depending on source) coupled to the benefits.  Now, in this economy, those realities aren't enough to bring people in... that says something.

[Tim Sielbeck]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

And where is this?  Looks justifiable to me:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1672388925980278784

Looks like a Russian flag on the shoulder of the closest guard(?).

[Tim the Tank Nut]

I'm pretty sure that the Bible points out that "the poor will always be with you" and the same is true for bad people.

My solution would be somewhat drastic in reforming the police accountability laws as there would not be a Police Union at all because were I the one ruling there wouldn't be ANY public sector unions.  They are an inherent conflict of interest no matter what.

The police have a nearly impossible job under the best of circumstances.  Adding rampant drug abuse without penalty, legalizing poor lifestyle choices, and generally reducing the respect for law and order (more than law enforcement itself) isn't going to help with that. How can you hope to recruit good, honest men for the job when good honest men can make the judgement that the job is impossible.  The people intelligent enough to do the work also have to have the morals to do the work and right away that is a narrow pool.  The smart people aren't going to enter into a no win situation.  All you have left are the old timers who got in before the rot was so bad and they're all retiring out.  The replacements are diversity hires.  How many of those cops in Memphis that killed that dude were white?  How about the Minnesota cop that killed the Australian lady?  In all things merit must come first or we find ourselves here.

[Skywalkre]

I think we're on the same page on a lot of things.  I'm absolutely for disbanding public unions for the reason you give (that's been blatantly obvious here in the Valley where we've had several ballot initiatives over the years that boiled down to the police saying "you better choose to spend more money on us or else we'll stop working and you'll be in danger!").

I'm not as pessimistic about the ability to right the ship with the issues facing the police, though.  I'm in full agreement you have to have a system with standards and those standards have to be met to get in, to graduate, and to keep your job.  If you address the toxic culture of shitty cops prevalent in so many departments I think you'd get some of these good candidates and former cops to come back.

On top of that the R side can't be so pessimistic about reform ideas outside of "lock 'em up!"  Take the 'defund police' discussion that started in '20.  If you were to just believe what folks here on TN say you literally had just two sides to this debate with the Left being for all police being outlawed.  That was absurd.  There were some crackpots on the Left who suggested that but there were also plenty of folks in the middle who pointed out that police are ill equipped to handle some calls they run into every day (mental health issues being a big one) and maybe, just maybe, we should think of bringing in some folks to handle these other calls that are actually trained with it.

I just saw a story in my feed earlier about some San Antonio cops being charged with murder.  Only briefly looked at it but the one local piece I saw said a woman was having a mental health episode, caused some property damage, the police showed up, and may have overreacted and ended up shooting her dead.  Regardless of the details of that incident we've come across a lot of stories like that in recent years - police showing up to someone with clear mental health issues and said police have zero fucking training on handling someone like that.  This is a moment where even I admit I have some sympathy for the police. 

Here's another interesting idea - what if releasing some prisoners actually lowered crime?  Just that sentence alone will probably get some posters here to kneejerk overreact because the R answer always just seems to be "lock 'em up!" (unless they're a former R POTUS).  I saw an interesting piece a few weeks back that highlighted that during COVID some prison systems freed a bunch of people for reasons to do with overcrowding and fear of COVID running rampant through their population.  These weren't low level offenders... some were in there for murder convictions (the focus of the story was likely innocent, but that's an entirely different matter).  I think these prisoners released tended to be on the older side and thus higher risk from COVID.  Some of these prisoners also weren't released for brief periods.  To cut to the chase - they noticed in several areas where these prisoners were released that crime went down.  Why?  They're not sure... but a leading theory they highlighted in this story was that these tended to be poorer black neighborhoods where male role models were basically completely missing.  Getting a sudden influx of older, black prisoners might have done some good in straightening out some young individuals who were on the cusp of making bad decisions.  Like I said, though, imagine bringing that into any R politician's office - "I have an idea to lower crime and it'd involve releasing prisoners".  I imagine most wouldn't even give you a chance to explain before kicking you out.

I think positive change is absolutely doable... it just won't be easy or happen without some unconventional ideas being tried.  We have to be willing to try them, though.

[JWB]

OTOH:

Frederic William Whitehurst

Hero, Mentor and FBI Whistleblower Extraordinaire

https://whistleblowersblog.org/whistleblower-of-the-week/frederic-william-whitehurst/?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=11c91364-8b6e-4834-b18e-f2dad8e6d83b

[lucklucky]

Disgraceful British Police agent.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/03/sussex-police-pcso-refuses-intervene-fight-investigation/

[Skywalkre]

Last week's SCOTUS news buried this piece:

Quote

Deputy acquitted of all charges for failing to act during deadly Parkland school shooting

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) — A Florida sheriff’s deputy was acquitted Thursday of felony child neglect and other charges for failing to act during the 2018 Parkland school massacre, concluding the first trial in U.S. history of a law enforcement officer for conduct during an on-campus shooting.

Former Broward County Deputy Scot Peterson wept as the verdicts were read, while the fathers of two students murdered at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on Feb, 14, 2018, stared straight ahead and quickly left the courtroom. The jury had deliberated for 19 hours over four days.

https://apnews.com/article/parkland-florida-school-shooting-deputy-91dfe6054944fa3a8399ee18f05d2171

A friend pointed the insanity of the police situation in this country - it's difficult to bring charges of misconduct and brutality against them and they have no obligation/there is no accountability for them to actually do their duty (such as in this case).  Oh, the icing on the cake is this guy is apparently pulling down a $102k/year pension.  Just disgusting...

[Murph]

The problem is with you seem to ignore that he didn’t break the law. I know you’re on a typical liberal that’s all in favor of sentence first trial afterwards, but you actually have to obey the law in many states in the United States of America today although the Democrats are making that whole lot harder by sentence first trial afterwards.  And I realize you wanna put all cops in jail if they don’t meet your little lefty standards of being absolutely 100% perfect all the time. I would take you much more seriously if you’d actually done the job for two years. And as for the San Antonio cops they were arrested. They’re going to go to trial, but my question is, is how far investigation was it when they were literally arrested hours after the incident I can’t see that there was a whole lot of investigation done at all. Which means the defense lawyers gonna have a great time pointing out that they were railroaded now whether they are guilty or not I don’t know I wasn’t there.

 

Apparently you were because you know all the facts and I’ve already pre-convicted them and ready to send them off to death row. Again, I would take you far more seriously if you actually knew what you were talking about and if you’d actually spent two years on the job.

[Skywalkre]

10 minutes ago, Murph said:

The problem is with you seem to ignore that he didn’t break the law. I know you’re on a typical liberal that’s all in favor of sentence first trial afterwards, but you actually have to obey the law in many states in the United States of America today although the Democrats are making that whole lot harder by sentence first trial afterwards.  And I realize you wanna put all cops in jail if they don’t meet your little lefty standards of being absolutely 100% perfect all the time. I would take you much more seriously if you’d actually done the job for two years. And as for the San Antonio cops they were arrested. They’re going to go to trial, but my question is, is how far investigation was it when they were literally arrested hours after the incident I can’t see that there was a whole lot of investigation done at all. Which means the defense lawyers gonna have a great time pointing out that they were railroaded now whether they are guilty or not I don’t know I wasn’t there.

 

Apparently you were because you know all the facts and I’ve already pre-convicted them and ready to send them off to death row. Again, I would take you far more seriously if you actually knew what you were talking about and if you’d actually spent two years on the job.

Your fan fiction is even better than DKTanker's.  🙄

Is asking for accountability too much when it comes to police?  I'm curious... why should they get special treatment?  We have an instance here where an officer didn't do his job, quickly retired after the incident, and is now pulling down 6 figures for the rest of his life.  You're ok with that?  Shouldn't there be some way to hold him accountable for his actions on that day?

[Murph]

Accountability is no big deal, you, on the other hand think All Cops are Barsterds, completely evil, need to be abolished, and blah blah blah left wing BS.  Again, I would have just a scintilla of respect for you if you had actually DONE the job, or even attempted to have an open mind, and look at all sides.  But no, you are a predictable Abolish the Police lefty who only wants the police to keep the plebs down so they vote, act and live the way You and your lefty buddies want them to so that the Left keeps power.  

That loathsome scum in Florida, he deserved to lose his job, did he break the law?  Apparently not.  If you have ever sat in a trial, you might have an open mind instead of leftwing propaganda.  Ok, so he retired, apparently their Civil Service rules allow that.  Who voted those in? Ask yourself that question.  Don't just be an NPC.  Actually think.  

As for San Antonio, I WAS the Internal Affairs Sergeant, I KNOW how investigations into bad cops work, and what it takes to WIN in court.  This was a knee jerk, and I wonder how it going to hold up in court?  I suspect, and I have no evidence of this, that their defense attorneys are just high fiving each other since it was a left wing Convict first, trial afterwards.  As for Fiction, you are the one living in Left wing BS cloud-cuckoo land.  You have to follow the rules, be it good or bad, in order to properly get justice.  Now I understand to you and your lefty buddies, Justice means putting those on the right in prison for "wrongthink".  Also you want cops to stop and ask someone committing crimes: "Excuse me sir, before I am allowed to take any action against you, I must determine if you are a poor downtrodden person, who gets an automatic pass in any crime you might decide to commit."  

The reason this county is so f**ked up right now is that sort of attitude.  

 

[rmgill]

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Your fan fiction is even better than DKTanker's.  🙄

So what law was broken  make a legal argument.   

 

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Is asking for accountability too much when it comes to police? 
 

You want accountability based on no law? Just make up punishment from whole cloth? Rule of man not of law? 

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I'm curious... why should they get special treatment?  We have an instance here where an officer didn't do his job, quickly retired after the incident, and is now pulling down 6 figures for the rest of his life. 

Is being a coward a violation of law? You know what policy and law are right? You know that are different right? 
 

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

You're ok with that?  Shouldn't there be some way to hold him accountable for his actions on that day?

How would you articulate the law to accomplish what you want? 

[Sardaukar]

20 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Disgraceful British Police agent.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/03/sussex-police-pcso-refuses-intervene-fight-investigation/

To be fair, PCSOs are not "real police" and originally reserved only 3 weeks of training (nowadays 6 weeks). They are also unarmed. So, it's not really "their job" to get into violent confrontations. And mostly they don't even have handcuffs etc., much less pepper spray. So, getting into violent fracas without any equipment is very risky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_community_support_officer

Unlike constables, due to the non-confrontational nature of their role PCSOs are not normally issued with batons, incapacitant spray, handcuffs or leg restraints. However PCSOs are authorised to carry and use this equipment.[17] Four forces are an exception to this convention: British Transport Police PCSOs are issued with handcuffs and leg restraints;[21] Also Dyfed-Powys Police, North Wales Police and Merseyside PCSOs are issued with handcuffs.[48][49]

Edited July 4, 2023 by Sardaukar

[Murph]

28 minutes ago, rmgill said:

So what law was broken  make a legal argument.   

 

You want accountability based on no law? Just make up punishment from whole cloth? Rule of man not of law? 

Is being a coward a violation of law? You know what policy and law are right? You know that are different right? 
 

How would you articulate the law to accomplish what you want? 

Brilliant, and thank you for putting him on the spot to actually quote laws not BS lefty platitudes.  

[rmgill]

I want accountability too.  But you must have legal structures that stand up to legal principles and constitutional rights. 
 

Police Department Policy is not law. This is something that civil rights folks (citizens, lawyers, rights groups) get into arguments and legal battles with police departments and government agencies all the time. Simply articulating ‘policy’ and demands for where violations work is not going to cut it for legal (criminal and civil) accountability. 
 

What’s the law to charge against for cowardice in this case? 

[Murph]

I want and demand accountability, but it has to be done within the law!  Police department policy is not law.  Plus like an SAPD guy told me, they have to violate policy every day just to do the job, because it is impossible to do the job with the 800 page policy manual.  

[EchoFiveMike]

I think people are confusing "the law" with legitimacy and justice.  Giving credibility to "legality" within the fucked up, subverted befuckery that comprises much of America 2023 is stupid and naive.  

That cowardly cunt in Parkland should be hunted down and exterminated by one of the fathers or brothers of one the victims he betrayed.  That would be justice.  

"Legality" has got fuck-all to do with anything other than cover for the exercise of naked power here in Clownworld.  S/F....Ken M

 

[R011]

21 hours ago, Murph said:

I want and demand accountability, but it has to be done within the law!  Police department policy is not law.  Plus like an SAPD guy told me, they have to violate policy every day just to do the job, because it is impossible to do the job with the 800 page policy manual.  

The Florida cop should have received some real punishment, but it's not as if the police is the military and he can't be fined, court martialled, sent to a stockade, and dishonourably discharged anymore than any other civilian.  It's disappointing he quit rather than wait to be fired, but that's the breaks.  Perhaps he can be found liable in a civil action, but otherwise, he skated.

My understanding is that the cops from a neighbouring service showed up as quick as soon as they could and tried to do their jobs properly.  We hear about the bad cops and forces but there are good ones out there too and we shouldn't forget that.

[Murph]

The problem is apparently there is no real law that addresses his failure to act.  Either you have to live by the law, or you do what Skywalkre wants, shoot anyone you think is "wrong" and then have the trial at the cemetary.  

[EchoFiveMike]

Life is not binary.

If you do not punish evil, you command it to be done.  S/F...Ken M

[Rick]

From Tanknetter Thomas,

Posted by ThomasCTT on Tanknet Jan 09, 2010

With all due respect Paul, and not going ad hominem on you, it seems you are unable to grasp the fact that Law is not equal to Justice. In this case, the law was followed. Now, if you think justice was denied, well sorry, but that's how the law works. If one will allow justice (as you define or see it) to reign, you stand to risk running roughshod over the law. Perhaps over there in the Middle East they have little regard to stuff like procedural due process, or technical rules of the law. But in democracies ruled by law, such little things keep the "unwashed ignorant masses" at bay. Without these technical rules, people would be crying "Justice! Justice!" without really understanding what the word means, and you get something like the French Revolution

Calling these BW guys as "killers" "murderers" and such without going through the evidence is similar to sitting as judge and convicting a man without giving him a trial, all because your heart tells you "this man is evil." Sorry, but the courts in the USA don't work like that (or so I hope). Tell me, in that instance, where is justice if you convict a man without going through the evidence all because you pity more the victim? Justice is not just one way. Both parties deserve justice. For the victim and his family, it is to see that the person responsible is punished. For the accused, it is to have a fair trial, and in jurisdictions where the principle of presumption of innocence applies, this means the rules of procedure are skewed in favor of the accused. If the police or the prosecutor didn't do their jobs well, if they didn't follow procedure, blame the police or the lawyer, not the system.
 

As for probable cause and the police and innocent until proven guilty, well, the determination of innocence is left to the judge, not the police. Otherwise, LEOs around the world will have to sit on their asses and ponder "Did he commit a crime? He must be innocent, you know...As many have pointed out to you already, law was followed. If you don't like it, sorry, you'll have to accept it as yet another "injustice in this world" (as you see it).

[rmgill]

22 hours ago, R011 said:

The Florida cop should have received some real punishment, but it's not as if the police is the military and he can't be fined, court martialled, sent to a stockade, and dishonourably discharged anymore than any other civilian.  It's disappointing he quit rather than wait to be fired, but that's the breaks.  Perhaps he can be found liable in a civil action, but otherwise, he skated.

Warren vs DC.

"the duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists". 

 

22 hours ago, R011 said:

My understanding is that the cops from a neighbouring service showed up as quick as soon as they could and tried to do their jobs properly.  We hear about the bad cops and forces but there are good ones out there too and we shouldn't forget that.

True. Which is the problem with the left. They fixate in the bad while simultaneously pushing for more of what results in the negative out comes. 

[rmgill]

22 hours ago, Murph said:

The problem is apparently there is no real law that addresses his failure to act.  Either you have to live by the law, or you do what Skywalkre wants, shoot anyone you think is "wrong" and then have the trial at the cemetary.  

But thats not it either. If Skywalkre and the left object to a shooting, its wrong regardless of the facts or law. They want justice then too. 

[Murph]

4 hours ago, rmgill said:

But thats not it either. If Skywalkre and the left object to a shooting, its wrong regardless of the facts or law. They want justice then too. 

Justice or vengeance for killing a scumbag?

[Tim Sielbeck]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

Justice or vengeance for killing a scumbag?

Is there a difference to them?