When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[rmgill]

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Your fan fiction is even better than DKTanker's.  🙄

So what law was broken  make a legal argument.   

 

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Is asking for accountability too much when it comes to police? 
 

You want accountability based on no law? Just make up punishment from whole cloth? Rule of man not of law? 

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I'm curious... why should they get special treatment?  We have an instance here where an officer didn't do his job, quickly retired after the incident, and is now pulling down 6 figures for the rest of his life. 

Is being a coward a violation of law? You know what policy and law are right? You know that are different right? 
 

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

You're ok with that?  Shouldn't there be some way to hold him accountable for his actions on that day?

How would you articulate the law to accomplish what you want? 

[Sardaukar]

20 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Disgraceful British Police agent.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/03/sussex-police-pcso-refuses-intervene-fight-investigation/

To be fair, PCSOs are not "real police" and originally reserved only 3 weeks of training (nowadays 6 weeks). They are also unarmed. So, it's not really "their job" to get into violent confrontations. And mostly they don't even have handcuffs etc., much less pepper spray. So, getting into violent fracas without any equipment is very risky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_community_support_officer

Unlike constables, due to the non-confrontational nature of their role PCSOs are not normally issued with batons, incapacitant spray, handcuffs or leg restraints. However PCSOs are authorised to carry and use this equipment.[17] Four forces are an exception to this convention: British Transport Police PCSOs are issued with handcuffs and leg restraints;[21] Also Dyfed-Powys Police, North Wales Police and Merseyside PCSOs are issued with handcuffs.[48][49]

Edited July 4, 2023 by Sardaukar

[Murph]

28 minutes ago, rmgill said:

So what law was broken  make a legal argument.   

 

You want accountability based on no law? Just make up punishment from whole cloth? Rule of man not of law? 

Is being a coward a violation of law? You know what policy and law are right? You know that are different right? 
 

How would you articulate the law to accomplish what you want? 

Brilliant, and thank you for putting him on the spot to actually quote laws not BS lefty platitudes.  

[rmgill]

I want accountability too.  But you must have legal structures that stand up to legal principles and constitutional rights. 
 

Police Department Policy is not law. This is something that civil rights folks (citizens, lawyers, rights groups) get into arguments and legal battles with police departments and government agencies all the time. Simply articulating ‘policy’ and demands for where violations work is not going to cut it for legal (criminal and civil) accountability. 
 

What’s the law to charge against for cowardice in this case? 

[Murph]

I want and demand accountability, but it has to be done within the law!  Police department policy is not law.  Plus like an SAPD guy told me, they have to violate policy every day just to do the job, because it is impossible to do the job with the 800 page policy manual.  

[EchoFiveMike]

I think people are confusing "the law" with legitimacy and justice.  Giving credibility to "legality" within the fucked up, subverted befuckery that comprises much of America 2023 is stupid and naive.  

That cowardly cunt in Parkland should be hunted down and exterminated by one of the fathers or brothers of one the victims he betrayed.  That would be justice.  

"Legality" has got fuck-all to do with anything other than cover for the exercise of naked power here in Clownworld.  S/F....Ken M

 

[R011]

21 hours ago, Murph said:

I want and demand accountability, but it has to be done within the law!  Police department policy is not law.  Plus like an SAPD guy told me, they have to violate policy every day just to do the job, because it is impossible to do the job with the 800 page policy manual.  

The Florida cop should have received some real punishment, but it's not as if the police is the military and he can't be fined, court martialled, sent to a stockade, and dishonourably discharged anymore than any other civilian.  It's disappointing he quit rather than wait to be fired, but that's the breaks.  Perhaps he can be found liable in a civil action, but otherwise, he skated.

My understanding is that the cops from a neighbouring service showed up as quick as soon as they could and tried to do their jobs properly.  We hear about the bad cops and forces but there are good ones out there too and we shouldn't forget that.

[Murph]

The problem is apparently there is no real law that addresses his failure to act.  Either you have to live by the law, or you do what Skywalkre wants, shoot anyone you think is "wrong" and then have the trial at the cemetary.  

[EchoFiveMike]

Life is not binary.

If you do not punish evil, you command it to be done.  S/F...Ken M

[Rick]

From Tanknetter Thomas,

Posted by ThomasCTT on Tanknet Jan 09, 2010

With all due respect Paul, and not going ad hominem on you, it seems you are unable to grasp the fact that Law is not equal to Justice. In this case, the law was followed. Now, if you think justice was denied, well sorry, but that's how the law works. If one will allow justice (as you define or see it) to reign, you stand to risk running roughshod over the law. Perhaps over there in the Middle East they have little regard to stuff like procedural due process, or technical rules of the law. But in democracies ruled by law, such little things keep the "unwashed ignorant masses" at bay. Without these technical rules, people would be crying "Justice! Justice!" without really understanding what the word means, and you get something like the French Revolution

Calling these BW guys as "killers" "murderers" and such without going through the evidence is similar to sitting as judge and convicting a man without giving him a trial, all because your heart tells you "this man is evil." Sorry, but the courts in the USA don't work like that (or so I hope). Tell me, in that instance, where is justice if you convict a man without going through the evidence all because you pity more the victim? Justice is not just one way. Both parties deserve justice. For the victim and his family, it is to see that the person responsible is punished. For the accused, it is to have a fair trial, and in jurisdictions where the principle of presumption of innocence applies, this means the rules of procedure are skewed in favor of the accused. If the police or the prosecutor didn't do their jobs well, if they didn't follow procedure, blame the police or the lawyer, not the system.
 

As for probable cause and the police and innocent until proven guilty, well, the determination of innocence is left to the judge, not the police. Otherwise, LEOs around the world will have to sit on their asses and ponder "Did he commit a crime? He must be innocent, you know...As many have pointed out to you already, law was followed. If you don't like it, sorry, you'll have to accept it as yet another "injustice in this world" (as you see it).

[rmgill]

22 hours ago, R011 said:

The Florida cop should have received some real punishment, but it's not as if the police is the military and he can't be fined, court martialled, sent to a stockade, and dishonourably discharged anymore than any other civilian.  It's disappointing he quit rather than wait to be fired, but that's the breaks.  Perhaps he can be found liable in a civil action, but otherwise, he skated.

Warren vs DC.

"the duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists". 

 

22 hours ago, R011 said:

My understanding is that the cops from a neighbouring service showed up as quick as soon as they could and tried to do their jobs properly.  We hear about the bad cops and forces but there are good ones out there too and we shouldn't forget that.

True. Which is the problem with the left. They fixate in the bad while simultaneously pushing for more of what results in the negative out comes. 

[rmgill]

22 hours ago, Murph said:

The problem is apparently there is no real law that addresses his failure to act.  Either you have to live by the law, or you do what Skywalkre wants, shoot anyone you think is "wrong" and then have the trial at the cemetary.  

But thats not it either. If Skywalkre and the left object to a shooting, its wrong regardless of the facts or law. They want justice then too. 

[Murph]

4 hours ago, rmgill said:

But thats not it either. If Skywalkre and the left object to a shooting, its wrong regardless of the facts or law. They want justice then too. 

Justice or vengeance for killing a scumbag?

[Tim Sielbeck]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

Justice or vengeance for killing a scumbag?

Is there a difference to them?

[rmgill]

4 hours ago, Murph said:

Justice or vengeance for killing a scumbag?

A common theme in the left’s drive is revenge. 

[EchoFiveMike]

When are you soft handed, self deluding naive people going to accept that the only reason these lying fucks rotting the guts out of our former country are alive is because of the police state protecting them? 

The solution to despicable lying fucks has always been, and always will be violence.  This is absolute.  There is no short cut, there is no cheating the facts. 

You often have to do unpleasant shit because it's necessary; just because it's awful doesn't make it any less necessary.  Civilization is hard work.  S/F....Ken M 

 

[urbanoid]

 

[rmgill]

Doughnut operator is not going to like that one. 

[JWB]

 

[Skywalkre]

On 7/4/2023 at 8:48 AM, Murph said:

Accountability is no big deal, you, on the other hand think All Cops are Barsterds, completely evil, need to be abolished, and blah blah blah left wing BS.  Again, I would have just a scintilla of respect for you if you had actually DONE the job, or even attempted to have an open mind, and look at all sides.  But no, you are a predictable Abolish the Police lefty who only wants the police to keep the plebs down so they vote, act and live the way You and your lefty buddies want them to so that the Left keeps power. 

Murph... I've stated I think a majority of police are not good people and shouldn't be wearing the badge.  I made that argument yet again just a few weeks ago.  You can quote me on that.  I'll own it... but everything else you're writing about in this paragraph is utter BS.  You can't quote me on any of it.  You talk about respect but don't have the decency to even engage me on or acknowledge what I actually say.

On 7/4/2023 at 8:48 AM, Murph said:

That loathsome scum in Florida, he deserved to lose his job, did he break the law?  Apparently not.  If you have ever sat in a trial, you might have an open mind instead of leftwing propaganda.  Ok, so he retired, apparently their Civil Service rules allow that.  Who voted those in? Ask yourself that question. 

The charges against Scot Peterson were a long shot from the beginning.  The prosecution was pushing the boundaries of a law they felt offered some wiggle room.  Whether the jury rejected that interpretation of the law or felt it applied but Peterson's defense overrode that we may never know.

As for the rules that let him retire... the policies that allowed him to leave and keep his pension.  Yeah... who do you think pushes for said rules?  The police unions.  We've had too many examples here in the Valley of attempting to correct or reign in outrageous costs due to loopholes and poorly written rules regarding police pensions.  Said ballot measures were often met with "you better not vote no or else you'll be in danger!"  Literally local police threatening the local population because how dare us reign in abusive pension policies?  Give me a break...

And yes, I've sat on trials.  Unlike too many I know I don't shy away from jury duty.  The last experience ended fairly quickly after a mistral was quickly declared after Phoenix PD and the prosecutor were caught in some no-no behavior on the witness stand after it looked like they were railroading an innocent man. 

On 7/4/2023 at 8:48 AM, Murph said:

Don't just be an NPC.  Actually think. 

This is rich coming from you.  Not too long ago you posted that fabricated Atlantic article.  You often make bizarre, barely intelligible rants about politicians or events that can't be backed up... and when challenged on what might have actually happened you just don't respond.  And in this post, like too many here on TN, you simply make up positions I supposedly hold that I've never actually said. 

The gall you have to come out and make this statement... go look in a mirror first before saying this to someone else. 

[Skywalkre]

On 7/5/2023 at 9:55 AM, R011 said:

The Florida cop should have received some real punishment, but it's not as if the police is the military and he can't be fined, court martialled, sent to a stockade, and dishonourably discharged anymore than any other civilian.  It's disappointing he quit rather than wait to be fired, but that's the breaks.  Perhaps he can be found liable in a civil action, but otherwise, he skated.

Again, who's pushing for these policies and laws that basically result in police not being held accountable?  The police unions.  I have to reiterate something that was said a little further up in this thread - all public unions should be outlawed.

As for the civil suit... I thought I found an article stating that had already been tried but it was thrown out?  I'm unable to find the same article or any other claiming as such.

As for accountability... I was looking up to see what has happened after Uvalde.  It seems all punishment/firings have been doled out at this point but I can't get a firm figure.  Seems just 2-7 officers were actually fired (I'm all ears if someone has a firm figure to quote).  I'm curious how folks feel when they see that number.  The biggest police clusterfuck in my lifetime and just 2-7 appear to have been fired.  That right there is proof drastic overhaul is needed.

On 7/5/2023 at 9:55 AM, R011 said:

My understanding is that the cops from a neighbouring service showed up as quick as soon as they could and tried to do their jobs properly.  We hear about the bad cops and forces but there are good ones out there too and we shouldn't forget that.

I'm a critic of the situation in this country surrounding police conduct and even I admit there are good ones... they're just the minority.  The sad reality is this thread just scratches the surface of the various examples of misconduct that go on in this country.

What concerns me is there's little reason for the good ones to go into the job now.  As mentioned I've seen countless accounts elsewhere (reddit is a great place to read up on these when stories hit the front page there) where people becoming police for all the right reasons quit... and oftentimes it's because of the toxic culture from their fellow officers.

[Skywalkre]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:25 PM, urbanoid said:

 

An old link but I've heard this figure quite a bit:

Quote

The Department of Justice estimates that American police officers shoot 10,000 pet dogs in the line of duty each year. It is impossible to ascertain a reliable number, however, because most law enforcement agencies do not maintain accurate records of animal killings. The tally may be substantially higher, and some suggest it could reach six figures.

https://scholars.unh.edu/unh_lr/vol17/iss1/18/

Just... ugh...

[rmgill]

Feds too. The mantra about possible NFA  violations is, ‘what do you want? The BATFE to come and shoot your dog?’

ATF agents have been known to shoot dogs that were locked in cages because the barked at then too much  

One of the current jokes is to have a stuffed dog with Tannerite in your foyer. 

[Tim the Tank Nut]

I would die to protect my pets without giving it a second thought.

This is one area where LEO gets no sympathy from me at all.

 

[R011]

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Again, who's pushing for these policies and laws that basically result in police not being held accountable?  The police unions.  I have to reiterate something that was said a little further up in this thread - all public unions should be outlawed.

As for the civil suit... I thought I found an article stating that had already been tried but it was thrown out?  I'm unable to find the same article or any other claiming as such.

As for accountability... I was looking up to see what has happened after Uvalde.  It seems all punishment/firings have been doled out at this point but I can't get a firm figure.  Seems just 2-7 officers were actually fired (I'm all ears if someone has a firm figure to quote).  I'm curious how folks feel when they see that number.  The biggest police clusterfuck in my lifetime and just 2-7 appear to have been fired.  That right there is proof drastic overhaul is needed.

I'm a critic of the situation in this country surrounding police conduct and even I admit there are good ones... they're just the minority.  The sad reality is this thread just scratches the surface of the various examples of misconduct that go on in this country.

What concerns me is there's little reason for the good ones to go into the job now.  As mentioned I've seen countless accounts elsewhere (reddit is a great place to read up on these when stories hit the front page there) where people becoming police for all the right reasons quit... and oftentimes it's because of the toxic culture from their fellow officers.

Normal employment law.  Police aren't military so they can't be tried under anything but civilian law and a contract is a contract.  It seems there was a civil suit, but it was dismissed on the grounds that the police do not have a legal duty to protect citizens.  The federal government and FBI has to pay substantial damages for failure to properly follow the law in permitting the murderer to buy firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkland_high_school_shooting