rmgill Posted January 27, 2023 Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Murph said: Based on that, 100% legit shoot. Absolutely no question in my mind it was a good shoot. The shooting itself was justifed based on the details I have. No there's more to the story. But until it's released I can't specify. Suffice to say, I expect a rise out of you when you see it. Edited January 27, 2023 by rmgill
rmgill Posted January 27, 2023 Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Skywalkre said: That very incident happened here in the Valley a few years ago. Police at an apartment complex in the middle of the night, guy opens the door (the police were not visible through the peephole) with a gun in his hand, he does not make any threatening moves towards the officers, one officer opens fire and kills him. You'll all be surprised to hear this... but nothing happened to the officers. Phoenix PD just paid out a few million to the family. There was another incident like this where the officer shot a woman through her back window. That officer was charged with a felony. It was some sort of homicide. I'm not sure if it was charged as manslaughter or murder. https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/texas-officer-convicted-manslaughter-window-shooting-95382972 Oh, here it is. Convicted of Manslaughter. 2 hours ago, Skywalkre said: My advice would be... don't open the door. In case it's the police (but you don't know that) I wouldn't risk the chance of being shot. Think about that for a second... in the US being given advice to not be seen with a weapon in a reasonable situation for fear the police may be there and kill you. In the south, it IS expected that citizens may show up with a gun. Which is why cops are told/trained to CLEARLY identify themselves. They can get shot for not doing so and they can sometimes be shot with justification too. Rural officers seem to know this more intuitively than urban officers it seems. Suburban is a crapshoot. Edited January 27, 2023 by rmgill
Skywalkre Posted January 27, 2023 Posted January 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Murph said: This will take a while. Juries tend to not convict cops for multiple reasons, but one of the biggest one is that Juries are made up of citizens who tend to be sympathetic to the almost impossible job that cops end up doing. So as a result the ones are are convicted are the worst, or those in jurisdictions where you have a lot of Democrats (not being snarky, but truthful). Even in Austin, which is Berkeley east they have a hard time getting juries to convict on the evidence the prosecutors send forward. The Supreme Court has always said, and refuses to budge off of the "reasonable officer" standard, they they spank lower courts who tend to engage in 20/20 hindsight. The Supreme Court has never waivered on that (except for Sotomayor), and demands lower courts obey their ruling. Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989) is the decision, and has never been over-ruled as far as I know. Also: Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985) Then:Mullenix v. Luna, 577 U.S. ___ (2015) I cannot address other states, but Texas as of last year was one of only FIVE states that required continuing education credits/hours for all police (including constables, school cops, City Marshals, etc.) Plus we have mandatory classes such as dealing with the mentally ill, racial sensitivity, the deaf, and such. Rise of the warrior cop has some good points, but I find it mis-states/overstates some areas. SWAT came out of two places (according to my instructor at SWAT school)- New York and Los Angles. Those two cities have VERY different attitudes on SWAT tactics: New York is going to bore you to death, talk, talk, talk. The LA method is: Ok we talked to you for all the time we are going to put up with your BS, it is @ss kicking time! The LA method is the one taught at most SWAT schools. Plus part of the rise of the "Warrior Cop" also came out of the Feds, specifically the FBI HRT (see Waco), and the increasing situation where there are gangs who are pretty well armed by anyone's standards. Some of the "warrior look" are the vest carriers, and such. And part of that is to take some of the darn weight off of your lower back, which is why most cops (including me) have lower back problems as we get older. Where I do NOT disagree with Balko is I think that No- Knock warrants are over used, and should be an absolutely last resort and subject to extreme scrutiny. I agree with Jack Dunphy who writes in National Review. https://reason.com/2013/08/02/dunphy-reviews-balkos-rise-of-the-warrio/ Also there is an issue with why does the FDA need a SWAT team? Why does the EPA? The Federal agencies are the most militarized of all agencies. When was the last time you saw an FBI agent go to prison or even be convicted for use of force? I personally cannot. A couple counters. First, charges have to be brought in the first place for a jury to have a chance. That incident in AZ (google Ryan Whitaker body cam and you'll see the incident) resulted in no charges ever being filed. Apparently, which is typical in these situations, Phoenix PD tried to fire the cop and lost that battle (which leads to that question I raised - if cops rarely are tried and convicted and rarely lose their job... how are they 'thrown to the wolves' too often?). Second, juries can be wrong. Go back and look at the first post in this thread. That jury just plain made the wrong call. Others aren't given all the facts, etc. Lastly, the USSC can be wrong, too. If there's going to be a reasonable officer standard there needs to be a reasonable citizen one as well. Clearly that isn't the case right now when you have so many incidents like the one I just mentioned, the one from the first post in this thread, another where a Marine vet killed defending his home from a no-knock warrant gone bad. All of these incidents here happened in AZ and come to memory quickly... which begs the question how many of these have happened across the country over the last few decades? To me it's pretty clear the answer is far too many and things need to change.
rmgill Posted January 28, 2023 Posted January 28, 2023 35 minutes ago, Skywalkre said: Apparently, which is typical in these situations, Phoenix PD tried to fire the cop and lost that battle (which leads to that question I raised - if cops rarely are tried and convicted and rarely lose their job... how are they 'thrown to the wolves' too often?). Rayshard Brooks shooting. It's a question of where the political will is for the event. 35 minutes ago, Skywalkre said: Lastly, the USSC can be wrong, too. If there's going to be a reasonable officer standard there needs to be a reasonable citizen one as well. Clearly that isn't the case right now when you have so many incidents like the one I just mentioned, the one from the first post in this thread, another where a Marine vet killed defending his home from a no-knock warrant gone bad. All of these incidents here happened in AZ and come to memory quickly... which begs the question how many of these have happened across the country over the last few decades? To me it's pretty clear the answer is far too many and things need to change. Sounds like AZ voters need to change their laws vis a vis deadly force.
rmgill Posted January 28, 2023 Posted January 28, 2023 (edited) This does NOT look good at all. https://vimeo.com/CityofMemphis 2 officers holding up a subject so that a 3rd officer can deliver face/head haymakers is no bueno. Edited January 28, 2023 by rmgill
DKTanker Posted January 28, 2023 Posted January 28, 2023 54 minutes ago, rmgill said: This does NOT look good at all. https://vimeo.com/CityofMemphis 2 officers holding up a subject so that a 3rd officer can deliver face/head haymakers is no bueno. The entire episode looked like a typical beatdown in the hood.
Murph Posted January 28, 2023 Posted January 28, 2023 17 hours ago, rmgill said: The shooting itself was justifed based on the details I have. No there's more to the story. But until it's released I can't specify. Suffice to say, I expect a rise out of you when you see it. I will look forward to it.
Murph Posted January 28, 2023 Posted January 28, 2023 16 hours ago, Skywalkre said: A couple counters. First, charges have to be brought in the first place for a jury to have a chance. That incident in AZ (google Ryan Whitaker body cam and you'll see the incident) resulted in no charges ever being filed. Apparently, which is typical in these situations, Phoenix PD tried to fire the cop and lost that battle (which leads to that question I raised - if cops rarely are tried and convicted and rarely lose their job... how are they 'thrown to the wolves' too often?). Second, juries can be wrong. Go back and look at the first post in this thread. That jury just plain made the wrong call. Others aren't given all the facts, etc. Lastly, the USSC can be wrong, too. If there's going to be a reasonable officer standard there needs to be a reasonable citizen one as well. Clearly that isn't the case right now when you have so many incidents like the one I just mentioned, the one from the first post in this thread, another where a Marine vet killed defending his home from a no-knock warrant gone bad. All of these incidents here happened in AZ and come to memory quickly... which begs the question how many of these have happened across the country over the last few decades? To me it's pretty clear the answer is far too many and things need to change. Look at the Police Unions and their contracts. I am NOT a fan of police unions. They are designed to get pay raises, and prevent bad cops from being terminated. Phoneix PD, take a look at their union contract, and write to your city council people to prevent a repeat of bad contracts that prevent bad cops from being fired. Get active. Tell your state reps to look into the contract. For many years, SAPD had "bulletproof" contracts that pretty much ensured suspended cops who needed to be fired, got their jobs back through "arbitration". But the CITY agreed to it! They still do to some degre. I also despise the "low profile" graphics on police cars since they are designed for revenue generation only. I think cop cars should be very visibly marked. Also if you are plain clothes, and doing a raid, you need a vest with the word POLICE or SHERIFF in big bold bright letters so that people KNOW you are the law. Unfortunately drug gangs sometimes wear police gear to rip off their competition. As for Juries, they sometimes get to see as little as 50% of the evidence due to the lawyers and judges deciding that too much evidence would "unduly prejudice the jury" or "Inflame the jury". Put the blame where is lays, on the Bar, and Judges. Also laws are written by the legislature, if they are bad, change your congress critter. Sometimes charges are not brought for different reasons. Regrettably one of those reasons is a piss poor investigation on the part of the agency. And the piss poor can also include the IA guys violating the officers rights so that their work will get tossed under the Brady decision. I have seen that happen. Too many IA guys go in like the FBI, aka Christ coming to cleans the temple. "You will respect my authority and confess, you miserable scumbag!". I will be the first to complain about the USSC, but actually read the decisions, and you find that they actually made good law. I have read all of them. I don't any more, but every day I used to pull up court decisions to read them. I loathed reading decisions written by certain justices because they tried to be obscure. Breyer was one, he was so in love with Legal Latin, and splitting that hair that his decisions were hard to read. Don't blame just the cops, look at the system, and what they allow. Look at the lawyers and Judges, really look at them. Also look at the laws passed by the Legislature. Hold the DA's feet to the fire. I have seen cases tossed due to really piss poor police work which made it impossible to get an honest conviction. But I have also seen cases where the DA went ahead and filed stuff, stacked the deck, and later on down the road got an appeal that showed just how bad things went. Check out the Michael Morton case in Williamson Count as a shining example of that. That DA ended up getting elected as a judge, and eventually going to jail over his actions. But poor Michael Morton spent 25 years in prison for a murder he did not commit.
Steven P Allen Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 On 1/27/2023 at 2:15 PM, Skywalkre said: Is it society's problem if police aren't getting trained properly? The answer is, yes: it is. This training is ultimately under the control of whatever person sits at the top of the department pyramid with "civilian" oversight, often the result of political cronyism and Criminal Justice degrees offered by public and private universities. The street cops aren't training themselves: their training is absolutely influenced and even created by "society."
Murph Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 53 minutes ago, Steven P Allen said: The answer is, yes: it is. This training is ultimately under the control of whatever person sits at the top of the department pyramid with "civilian" oversight, often the result of political cronyism and Criminal Justice degrees offered by public and private universities. The street cops aren't training themselves: their training is absolutely influenced and even created by "society." Completely on the mark. During the the COVID lockdowns, we struggled to get our mandated training. In Texas anyway, failure to get your training hours means you lose your peace officer license and therefore cannot be employed as a cop. Same for jailers and dispatchers. We ALL have to have mandatory training. When you have the EEO hires at the top who are beholden to the Mayor or City Manager and all they want is revenue from tickets, or whatever you have an issue. As far as I know only FIVE, repeat FIVE states require post academy education hours! FIVE! Texas, and the Communist Republic of Kaliforniastan are two of them. California's POST standards are quite good. EEO hire failing upward: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/01/30/memphis-police-chief-once-fired-from-atlanta-pd-over-botched-sex-crimes-probe/
NickM Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 22 minutes ago, Murph said: Completely on the mark. During the the COVID lockdowns, we struggled to get our mandated training. In Texas anyway, failure to get your training hours means you lose your peace officer license and therefore cannot be employed as a cop. Same for jailers and dispatchers. We ALL have to have mandatory training. When you have the EEO hires at the top who are beholden to the Mayor or City Manager and all they want is revenue from tickets, or whatever you have an issue. As far as I know only FIVE, repeat FIVE states require post academy education hours! FIVE! Texas, and the Communist Republic of Kaliforniastan are two of them. California's POST standards are quite good. EEO hire failing upward: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/01/30/memphis-police-chief-once-fired-from-atlanta-pd-over-botched-sex-crimes-probe/ A stunning and brave diversity hire, what a surprise
Murph Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 If you are the proper gender, race, sexual deviation, etc, you can fail miserably and get promoted in the Democrat held cities and organizations. She is an obvious EEO hire, and probably they tailored the job description for someone like her to exclude competent people who might not check the right boxes so they can brag they have hired a [Fill in the blank].
rmgill Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 Also, the standards for Memphis PD were being down graded. https://nypost.com/2023/01/28/memphis-cops-in-tyre-nichols-murder-hired-after-pd-relaxed-job-standards/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=SocialFlow Quote At least two out of of five Memphis police officers charged with murder in the fatal beatdown of Tyre Nichols joined the force after the department relaxed its hiring requirements. Tadarrius Bean and Demetrius Haley both joined the Memphis Police Department in Aug. 2020, NBC News reported, more than two years after the department dramatically loosened the education qualifications to become an officer. Recruits no longer needed an associate’s degree or 54 college credit hours to join the force, and could get by with five years of work experience, Action 5 reported. Loosening the required qualifications however means that the department is ultimately getting “less desirable” job candidates, Mike Alcazar, an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a retired NYPD detective, told The Post. “They’re desperate. They want police officers,” Alcazar said. “They’re going through it, they check off some boxes, saying, ‘Ok, they’re good enough, get them on.” As of Jan. 2022, MPD was down roughly 500 officers, the news outlet reported, citing the Memphis Police Association. Last year, the department lowered its standards again for new recruits, nixing the timed physical ability test and cutting college education requirements from 54 credit hours to just 24. The department also revealed that was even offering waivers for people who have been convicted on felony charges.
TrustMe Posted January 31, 2023 Posted January 31, 2023 Met Police drug strategist takes drugs... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64468179
Steven P Allen Posted February 1, 2023 Posted February 1, 2023 Our CJAdmin (both cop side and corrections side) programs nose-dived, starting after Ferguson and continuing. No one wants to be a cop in this political arena EXCEPT for the guys who are likely to end up being yet another reason for this political arena.
Murph Posted February 1, 2023 Posted February 1, 2023 3 hours ago, Steven P Allen said: Our CJAdmin (both cop side and corrections side) programs nose-dived, starting after Ferguson and continuing. No one wants to be a cop in this political arena EXCEPT for the guys who are likely to end up being yet another reason for this political arena. No kidding! We cannot get people to apply for jailer positions at all. It is terrible, we are hiring people that ten, heck five years ago we would have NEVER even given an interview!
Murph Posted February 1, 2023 Posted February 1, 2023 Memphis Chief was fired from Atlanta PD for covering up sexual abuse scandal involving a child molesting co-worker. EEO Hire. All you have to do is look at her, and see she is totally unqualified, and was hired purely to check some blocks....
rmgill Posted February 1, 2023 Posted February 1, 2023 Dollars to doughnuts there are MANY officers in Memphis PD who are poor to utterly incompetent as these officers were.
Murph Posted February 4, 2023 Posted February 4, 2023 And in most large departments. But EEO and lower standards to get bodies is what happens in this day and age.
Angrybk Posted February 5, 2023 Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) New book about Oakland PD recently came out and I should give it a read. I’m a little surprised OPD isn’t talked about more, but it’s probably because they don’t kill civilians. Mildly understaffed, huge budget (they all make six figures easy), have basically refused to do anything about the high levels of crime in Oakland until it reaches murder level (which they’re actually good at following up on). Plus nobody takes them seriously after about twenty OPD were found out to be banging the same underaged prostitute (the Celeste Guap incident). Before I lived here I was in a working class/hipster neighborhood in Brooklyn, where the cops had significant street presence, everybody knew them by name and said hi, they were competent and gave a shit, etc. Sorta like what Murph referred to before, they were very good at doing the boring unsexy stuff, and that made the locals trust them. Caveat is that the neighborhood was half Polish immigrants and half artsy types, neither of which were prone to violence vs getting drunk and passing out in somebody’s stairwell. Edited February 5, 2023 by Angrybk
DB Posted February 6, 2023 Posted February 6, 2023 Quote Mr Parr said most, if not all, serving female police officers have had to endure sexual assault and inappropriate behaviour from fellow officers. More on the Met. https://www.itv.com/news/2023-02-05/hundreds-of-uk-police-officers-should-never-have-been-recruited-inspector-says Best described as a massive institutional failure in every department.
Murph Posted February 6, 2023 Posted February 6, 2023 6 hours ago, DB said: More on the Met. https://www.itv.com/news/2023-02-05/hundreds-of-uk-police-officers-should-never-have-been-recruited-inspector-says Best described as a massive institutional failure in every department. Wow. Our female deputies, no one in their right mind would attempt something like that to them, they would get their @ss kicked in a heartbeat (by the female deputy!).
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