When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[rmgill]

Depends on the state.

Drawing the weapon may not be a criminal act in and of itself without justification. Drawing a firearm could be as far as I understand a simple matter of just getting the firearm cleared of the holster for faster use if necessary. 

Pointing it at someone could be an issue. This is the case in Georgia. There's no brandishing statute. Pointing a gun at someone without justification would be an aggravated assault charge. 

/mr picky

[FALightFighter]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Depends on the state.

Drawing the weapon may not be a criminal act in and of itself without justification. Drawing a firearm could be as far as I understand a simple matter of just getting the firearm cleared of the holster for faster use if necessary. 

Pointing it at someone could be an issue. This is the case in Georgia. There's no brandishing statute. Pointing a gun at someone without justification would be an aggravated assault charge. 

/mr picky

That's why I deliberately chose the words "excessive force" and not "brandishing", "assault" or any of a number of other options. It IS, without a doubt, a presentation of force. And if there is no presentation of force on the part of the suspect, then it is at least arguably "excessive".

The point is that we (collectively, as a society) have moved pretty far down the continuum of how much force or threat of force we allow agents of the state to present before a similar threat is made by a citizen or other non-agent of the state.

[Murph]

17 hours ago, Angrybk said:

Imho cops in the US sometimes acting with excessive force is in fact a real problem, and we’ve kind of lost out by framing it as a white vs black thing. Remember that drunk white guy in Vegas a few years back who got killed by a cop with an AR while he was lying in the ground and following the cop’s orders completely. Or this case that’s now front page news: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-death-memphis

There is that.  But also I see it as a problem of communication, and society.  When I started we talked more folks into cuffs than we ever fought.  I was trained to talk to people (but that seems to be a Deputy Sheriff thing), but if they wanted to dance, well, we would dance.  Can I say that I have never screwed my .45 into someones ear and told them to not be a fool?  Absolutely not.  Have I taken people to jail, and actually been thanked for how nice I treated them on the way?  Yes, I have.  But I was taught by the old timers, who many times were at calls by themselves since there was NO backup available.  

But newer cops see the assaults on officers, the bad stuff constantly, and then they see the Communist News Network and the other libtard MSM second guessing decisions that have to be taken in a split second and somehow deciding that THEY would have made a different decision.  Most new officers are terrified of being the next victim of CNN/PMSDNC/NBC/CBS/ABC/etc.  So they hesitate and then instead of getting control of the situation when it is manageable and the suspect can be peacefully talked down, they let it get out of control, and bad things happen.

Another thing, is cops, especially young cops get amped up by what is being broadcast by dispatch, and that is ALL they know when they arrive at a scene.  Most of them only have that information, and when they get there, the situation is chaos, with screaming, conflicting stories, etc.  Also they might see an assault in progress and have to respond.  Lord help them if the assailant is a minority and they use "too much force" per the media and other second guessers.

Fighting someone and trying to NOT hurt them is a lot harder than ending the fight by hurting the bad guy.  And it looks terrible on body camera, and cell phone camera which never give context.   So officers since they are timid, tend to over-react because they are scared and amped up.  As a result "Bad sh*t" sometimes happens.  It is regrettable, and should always be investigated, but the investigation should be fair, not a "we have to appease this group, so we will throw the officer to the wolves" which happens too often, and officers know this.

Many years ago (30), I worked with a guy who had been fired from Houston PD at the beginning of the 1990's for other (official) reasons, but as he put it, for not carrying his "throw down gun".  He told me that some HPD substations had boxes of confiscated pistols that they were told to take and carry with them to "throw down" if they got into a bad shoot or other similar situation.  That officer died a few years ago of massive health issues.  I knew him when I worked at the University Police Department.  

And the Memphis thing shows that if cops do bad, they get indicted.  But all too often the cops are thrown away just to appease the group de jour who is howling that "No justice, No Peace! And poor bubba, despite being a career criminal was gunned down by those racist cops".  

I have no tolerance for bad cops, but I also understand that some who are labeled "Bad cops" are not in any way.

Another bad issue, is drugs, when some crazy motherplucker is tweaking on his/her/its favorite drug (usually meth), sometimes it takes a "dog pile" to get them down.  Also they cannot be reasoned with, cannot be talked down, and cannot be stopped without force.  And it looks bad on camera.  

 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, FALightFighter said:

That's why I deliberately chose the words "excessive force" and not "brandishing", "assault" or any of a number of other options. It IS, without a doubt, a presentation of force. And if there is no presentation of force on the part of the suspect, then it is at least arguably "excessive".

I can see a situation where drawing a gun might be reasonable. 

2 AM knock on the door when I am not expecting a visitor, I AM going to the door armed. If I'm in my bathrobe and skivies I don't have a good belt to have a holster attached to, so I'll be holding gun on my bladed off side as I approach the door and then check to see who is out there. It does not require any overt presentation of force on the part of the person knocking on my door, just an apprehension of something out of the ordinary and prudential actions on my part. 

I can see the same sort of reasonable action on the part of a cop approaching a car or any other number of situations. The above video though showing little Miss Dangerous pointing the gun at his head would seem to be over the top. 

2 hours ago, FALightFighter said:

The point is that we (collectively, as a society) have moved pretty far down the continuum of how much force or threat of force we allow agents of the state to present before a similar threat is made by a citizen or other non-agent of the state.

I draw it as a reasonable behavior for both types of parties in certain situations. Once you cover someone with your muzzle you better have a damn good justification. The presence of the arm or even it's carriage in the hand doesn't need a strong justification, just a reasonable apprehension of it's potential immediate need. 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

But newer cops see the assaults on officers, the bad stuff constantly, and then they see the Communist News Network and the other libtard MSM second guessing decisions that have to be taken in a split second and somehow deciding that THEY would have made a different decision.  Most new officers are terrified of being the next victim of CNN/PMSDNC/NBC/CBS/ABC/etc.  So they hesitate and then instead of getting control of the situation when it is manageable and the suspect can be peacefully talked down, they let it get out of control, and bad things happen.

I just learned of a shooting over here in Doraville, Ga that I suspect will be making some level of public news. Murph, you as an experienced officer, when you see it will probably have some strong words to say. 

You can probably suss out what happened from the below release. But when the body cam and dash cam footage are released you're going curse. I bet $5 on it. 

https://gbi.georgia.gov/press-releases/2023-01-19/gbi-investigates-officer-involved-shooting-doraville

[Murph]

Based on that, 100% legit shoot.  Absolutely no question in my mind it was a good shoot.  

[Skywalkre]

5 hours ago, FALightFighter said:

The point is that we (collectively, as a society) have moved pretty far down the continuum of how much force or threat of force we allow agents of the state to present before a similar threat is made by a citizen or other non-agent of the state.

Exactly.  I've lamented there's a double standard in favor of police for years on this forum.  I still struggle how Conservatives argue (indirectly) it's an acceptable thing. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Skywalkre]

 

4 hours ago, Murph said:

There is that.  But also I see it as a problem of communication, and society.  When I started we talked more folks into cuffs than we ever fought.  I was trained to talk to people (but that seems to be a Deputy Sheriff thing), but if they wanted to dance, well, we would dance. 

...

Another thing, is cops, especially young cops get amped up by what is being broadcast by dispatch, and that is ALL they know when they arrive at a scene.  Most of them only have that information, and when they get there, the situation is chaos, with screaming, conflicting stories, etc.  Also they might see an assault in progress and have to respond.  Lord help them if the assailant is a minority and they use "too much force" per the media and other second guessers.

Fighting someone and trying to NOT hurt them is a lot harder than ending the fight by hurting the bad guy.  And it looks terrible on body camera, and cell phone camera which never give context.   So officers since they are timid, tend to over-react because they are scared and amped up. 

Is it society's problem if police aren't getting trained properly?  Isn't this basically what those two examples are highlighting?  I remember years ago after one of the school shootings someone posted how a hair dresser required more hours of training than a police officer in that state.  Police are called into situations that are really mental health emergencies and have zero training to handle it (in this situation I'm actually sympathetic).  Policing is a job like any other with best practices... if those aren't being put into place or pushed out to the force that's not on society (outside of the fact society indirectly controls said agencies through funding and government... but there are examples of these changes being pushed against by police).

4 hours ago, Murph said:

As a result "Bad sh*t" sometimes happens.  It is regrettable, and should always be investigated, but the investigation should be fair, not a "we have to appease this group, so we will throw the officer to the wolves" which happens too often, and officers know this.

What do you mean by this?  I ask because the record over the last few decades is painfully clear that police are rarely convicted except for the most blatant and heinous examples (one of these in the last decade still took multiple trials for some reason...) and police that are fired, even for poor conduct, are often picked up by another agency in short order.  It's only very recently that folks who track this have noticed a small shift in the right direction.  This sounds like misconception by police ('everyone is out to get us!') rather than something that's actually happening.  Unless you mean something else... but what's worse than going to jail or losing your job?

4 hours ago, Murph said:

Many years ago (30), I worked with a guy who had been fired from Houston PD at the beginning of the 1990's for other (official) reasons, but as he put it, for not carrying his "throw down gun".  He told me that some HPD substations had boxes of confiscated pistols that they were told to take and carry with them to "throw down" if they got into a bad shoot or other similar situation. 

4 hours ago, Murph said:

And the Memphis thing shows that if cops do bad, they get indicted.  But all too often the cops are thrown away just to appease the group de jour who is howling that "No justice, No Peace! And poor bubba, despite being a career criminal was gunned down by those racist cops".

Again, this is only a recent historical shift.  Last I saw convictions are only rising slightly.  An officer can get on the stand and say "I felt my life was threatened," even if it wasn't, and that still carries a lot of weight with juries.

Again, I'm curious how a board full of Conservatives isn't up in arms over the various issues with local police that have been brought up over the last few decades.  Recently we've all lamented how high level politicians can walk away from mishandling sensitive information that would, and has, screwed over lower level nobodies... but we're ok with police having a different standard and being above the citizenry they're supposed to serve and protect.

ETA - Have you considered that it could be society changing to how police behave?  That was a major argument in Balko's "Rise of the Warrior Cop" and I haven't seen anything in the last decade to think he was wrong.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Skywalkre]

2 hours ago, rmgill said:

I can see a situation where drawing a gun might be reasonable. 

2 AM knock on the door when I am not expecting a visitor, I AM going to the door armed. If I'm in my bathrobe and skivies I don't have a good belt to have a holster attached to, so I'll be holding gun on my bladed off side as I approach the door and then check to see who is out there. It does not require any overt presentation of force on the part of the person knocking on my door, just an apprehension of something out of the ordinary and prudential actions on my part.

That very incident happened here in the Valley a few years ago.  Police at an apartment complex in the middle of the night, guy opens the door (the police were not visible through the peephole) with a gun in his hand, he does not make any threatening moves towards the officers, one officer opens fire and kills him.  You'll all be surprised to hear this... but nothing happened to the officers.  Phoenix PD just paid out a few million to the family.

My advice would be... don't open the door.  In case it's the police (but you don't know that) I wouldn't risk the chance of being shot.  Think about that for a second... in the US being given advice to not be seen with a weapon in a reasonable situation for fear the police may be there and kill you.  That's fucked up if things have reached that point (and it's fucked up what happened to that man above and how no officer was charged or even fired).

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Murph]

This will take a while.  Juries tend to not convict cops for multiple reasons, but one of the biggest one is that Juries are made up of citizens who tend to be sympathetic to the almost impossible job that cops end up doing.  So as a result the ones are are convicted are the worst, or those in jurisdictions where you have a lot of Democrats (not being snarky, but truthful).  Even in Austin, which is Berkeley east they have a hard time getting juries to convict on the evidence the prosecutors send forward.  

The Supreme Court has always said, and refuses to budge off of the "reasonable officer" standard, they they spank lower courts who tend to engage in 20/20 hindsight.  The Supreme Court has never waivered on that (except for Sotomayor), and demands lower courts obey their ruling.  Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989) is the decision, and has never been over-ruled as far as I know.  Also: Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)  Then:Mullenix v. Luna, 577 U.S. ___ (2015) 

I cannot address other states, but Texas as of last year was one of only FIVE states that required continuing education credits/hours for all police (including constables, school cops, City Marshals, etc.)  Plus we have mandatory classes such as dealing with the mentally ill, racial sensitivity, the deaf, and such.  

Rise of the warrior cop has some good points, but I find it mis-states/overstates some areas.  SWAT came out of two places (according to my instructor at SWAT school)- New York and Los Angles.  Those two cities have VERY different attitudes on SWAT tactics: New York is going to bore you to death, talk, talk, talk.  The LA method is:  Ok we talked to you for all the time we are going to put up with your BS, it is @ss kicking time!  The LA method is the one taught at most SWAT schools.  

Plus part of the rise of the "Warrior Cop" also came out of the Feds, specifically the FBI HRT (see Waco), and the increasing situation where there are gangs who are pretty well armed by anyone's standards.  Some of the "warrior look" are the vest carriers, and such.  And part of that is to take some of the darn weight off of your lower back, which is why most cops (including me) have lower back problems as we get older.  

Where I do NOT disagree with Balko is I think that No- Knock warrants are over used, and should be an absolutely last resort and subject to extreme scrutiny.  I agree with Jack Dunphy who writes in National Review.  https://reason.com/2013/08/02/dunphy-reviews-balkos-rise-of-the-warrio/  Also there is an issue with why does the FDA need a SWAT team?  Why does the EPA?  The Federal agencies are the most militarized of all agencies.  When was the last time you saw an FBI agent go to prison or even be convicted for use of force?  I personally cannot.  

 

 

[EchoFiveMike]

You get the government you deserve.  

"We" are a loose accumulation of weak human shaped garbage existing in the declining ruins of a once great nation built by rugged, vigorous American men.  These weak fucks, especially the fork tongued swindlers, have supported this anarchic police state to justify(to those weak stupid gullible people) the creation of a giant "law enforcement" system to crush potential dissent or even the questioning of this fuckery.  It coincidently enriches many of these same parasites.

Actual men solve their own problems.  If you can't solve it individually, you enlist other men of your community.  You do have a community, don't you?  No, no we generally don't, that's been stolen from us, under the guise of "doing it for us."  No stupid, they're not doing it for you, they're doing it TO YOU.  You abdicated authority to these creatures with all these stupid  Libertarian and other swindles convincing you that the government was something else, not "we the People" as it says in the simple foundational documents.

Policing in a free country should be an elected sheriff, who raises a posse when actual crimes need to be handled beyond the capacity of one man.  If there's not enough people willing to help....that is it's own answer to the question.  If your community sucks, it's on the people in that community.  Just as it is anyways, this is just the open acknowledgment of this unavoidable fact.  S/F....Ken M   

 

[rmgill]

4 hours ago, Murph said:

Based on that, 100% legit shoot.  Absolutely no question in my mind it was a good shoot.  

The shooting itself was justifed based on the details I have. No there's more to the story. But until it's released I can't specify. Suffice to say, I expect a rise out of you when you see it. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by rmgill

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

That very incident happened here in the Valley a few years ago.  Police at an apartment complex in the middle of the night, guy opens the door (the police were not visible through the peephole) with a gun in his hand, he does not make any threatening moves towards the officers, one officer opens fire and kills him.  You'll all be surprised to hear this... but nothing happened to the officers.  Phoenix PD just paid out a few million to the family.

There was another incident like this where the officer shot a woman through her back window. That officer was charged with a felony. It was some sort of homicide. I'm not sure if it was charged as manslaughter or murder. 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/texas-officer-convicted-manslaughter-window-shooting-95382972

Oh, here it is. Convicted of Manslaughter. 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

My advice would be... don't open the door.  In case it's the police (but you don't know that) I wouldn't risk the chance of being shot.  Think about that for a second... in the US being given advice to not be seen with a weapon in a reasonable situation for fear the police may be there and kill you.  

In the south, it IS expected that citizens may show up with a gun. Which is why cops are told/trained to CLEARLY identify themselves. 

They can get shot for not doing so and they can sometimes be shot with justification too. Rural officers seem to know this more intuitively than urban officers it seems. Suburban is a crapshoot. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by rmgill

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

This will take a while.  Juries tend to not convict cops for multiple reasons, but one of the biggest one is that Juries are made up of citizens who tend to be sympathetic to the almost impossible job that cops end up doing.  So as a result the ones are are convicted are the worst, or those in jurisdictions where you have a lot of Democrats (not being snarky, but truthful).  Even in Austin, which is Berkeley east they have a hard time getting juries to convict on the evidence the prosecutors send forward.  

The Supreme Court has always said, and refuses to budge off of the "reasonable officer" standard, they they spank lower courts who tend to engage in 20/20 hindsight.  The Supreme Court has never waivered on that (except for Sotomayor), and demands lower courts obey their ruling.  Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989) is the decision, and has never been over-ruled as far as I know.  Also: Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)  Then:Mullenix v. Luna, 577 U.S. ___ (2015) 

I cannot address other states, but Texas as of last year was one of only FIVE states that required continuing education credits/hours for all police (including constables, school cops, City Marshals, etc.)  Plus we have mandatory classes such as dealing with the mentally ill, racial sensitivity, the deaf, and such.  

Rise of the warrior cop has some good points, but I find it mis-states/overstates some areas.  SWAT came out of two places (according to my instructor at SWAT school)- New York and Los Angles.  Those two cities have VERY different attitudes on SWAT tactics: New York is going to bore you to death, talk, talk, talk.  The LA method is:  Ok we talked to you for all the time we are going to put up with your BS, it is @ss kicking time!  The LA method is the one taught at most SWAT schools.  

Plus part of the rise of the "Warrior Cop" also came out of the Feds, specifically the FBI HRT (see Waco), and the increasing situation where there are gangs who are pretty well armed by anyone's standards.  Some of the "warrior look" are the vest carriers, and such.  And part of that is to take some of the darn weight off of your lower back, which is why most cops (including me) have lower back problems as we get older.  

Where I do NOT disagree with Balko is I think that No- Knock warrants are over used, and should be an absolutely last resort and subject to extreme scrutiny.  I agree with Jack Dunphy who writes in National Review.  https://reason.com/2013/08/02/dunphy-reviews-balkos-rise-of-the-warrio/  Also there is an issue with why does the FDA need a SWAT team?  Why does the EPA?  The Federal agencies are the most militarized of all agencies.  When was the last time you saw an FBI agent go to prison or even be convicted for use of force?  I personally cannot.  

 

 

A couple counters. 

First, charges have to be brought in the first place for a jury to have a chance.  That incident in AZ (google Ryan Whitaker body cam and you'll see the incident) resulted in no charges ever being filed.  Apparently, which is typical in these situations, Phoenix PD tried to fire the cop and lost that battle (which leads to that question I raised - if cops rarely are tried and convicted and rarely lose their job... how are they 'thrown to the wolves' too often?).

Second, juries can be wrong.  Go back and look at the first post in this thread.  That jury just plain made the wrong call.  Others aren't given all the facts, etc.

Lastly, the USSC can be wrong, too.  If there's going to be a reasonable officer standard there needs to be a reasonable citizen one as well.  Clearly that isn't the case right now when you have so many incidents like the one I just mentioned, the one from the first post in this thread, another where a Marine vet killed defending his home from a no-knock warrant gone bad.  All of these incidents here happened in AZ and come to memory quickly... which begs the question how many of these have happened across the country over the last few decades?  To me it's pretty clear the answer is far too many and things need to change.

[rmgill]

35 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Apparently, which is typical in these situations, Phoenix PD tried to fire the cop and lost that battle (which leads to that question I raised - if cops rarely are tried and convicted and rarely lose their job... how are they 'thrown to the wolves' too often?).

Rayshard Brooks shooting. 

It's a question of where the political will is for the event. 

35 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Lastly, the USSC can be wrong, too.  If there's going to be a reasonable officer standard there needs to be a reasonable citizen one as well.  Clearly that isn't the case right now when you have so many incidents like the one I just mentioned, the one from the first post in this thread, another where a Marine vet killed defending his home from a no-knock warrant gone bad.  All of these incidents here happened in AZ and come to memory quickly... which begs the question how many of these have happened across the country over the last few decades?  To me it's pretty clear the answer is far too many and things need to change.

Sounds like AZ voters need to change their laws vis a vis deadly force. 

[rmgill]

This does NOT look good at all. 

https://vimeo.com/CityofMemphis

2 officers holding up a subject so that a 3rd officer can deliver face/head haymakers is no bueno. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by rmgill

[DKTanker]

54 minutes ago, rmgill said:

This does NOT look good at all. 

https://vimeo.com/CityofMemphis

2 officers holding up a subject so that a 3rd officer can deliver face/head haymakers is no bueno. 

The entire episode looked like a typical beatdown in the hood.

[rmgill]

Well I guess it was.  

[Murph]

17 hours ago, rmgill said:

The shooting itself was justifed based on the details I have. No there's more to the story. But until it's released I can't specify. Suffice to say, I expect a rise out of you when you see it. 

I will look forward to it.

[Murph]

16 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

A couple counters. 

First, charges have to be brought in the first place for a jury to have a chance.  That incident in AZ (google Ryan Whitaker body cam and you'll see the incident) resulted in no charges ever being filed.  Apparently, which is typical in these situations, Phoenix PD tried to fire the cop and lost that battle (which leads to that question I raised - if cops rarely are tried and convicted and rarely lose their job... how are they 'thrown to the wolves' too often?).

Second, juries can be wrong.  Go back and look at the first post in this thread.  That jury just plain made the wrong call.  Others aren't given all the facts, etc.

Lastly, the USSC can be wrong, too.  If there's going to be a reasonable officer standard there needs to be a reasonable citizen one as well.  Clearly that isn't the case right now when you have so many incidents like the one I just mentioned, the one from the first post in this thread, another where a Marine vet killed defending his home from a no-knock warrant gone bad.  All of these incidents here happened in AZ and come to memory quickly... which begs the question how many of these have happened across the country over the last few decades?  To me it's pretty clear the answer is far too many and things need to change.

Look at the Police Unions and their contracts.  I am NOT a fan of police unions.  They are designed to get pay raises, and prevent bad cops from being terminated.  Phoneix PD, take a look at their union contract, and write to your city council people to prevent a repeat of bad contracts that prevent bad cops from being fired.  Get active.  Tell your state reps to look into the contract.  For many years, SAPD had "bulletproof" contracts that pretty much ensured suspended cops who needed to be fired, got their jobs back through "arbitration".  But the CITY agreed to it!  They still do to some degre.

I also despise the "low profile" graphics on police cars since they are designed for revenue generation only.  I think cop cars should be very visibly marked.  Also if you are plain clothes, and doing a raid, you need a vest with the word POLICE or SHERIFF in big bold bright letters so that people KNOW you are the law.  

Unfortunately drug gangs sometimes wear police gear to rip off their competition.  

As for Juries, they sometimes get to see as little as 50% of the evidence due to the lawyers and judges deciding that too much evidence would "unduly prejudice the jury" or "Inflame the jury".  Put the blame where is lays, on the Bar, and Judges.  Also laws are written by the legislature, if they are bad, change your congress critter.  Sometimes charges are not brought for different reasons.  Regrettably one of those reasons is a piss poor investigation on the part of the agency.  And the piss poor can also include the IA guys violating the officers rights so that their work will get tossed under the Brady decision.  I have seen that happen.  Too many IA guys go in like the FBI, aka Christ coming to cleans the temple.  "You will respect my authority and confess, you miserable scumbag!".  

I will be the first to complain about the USSC, but actually read the decisions, and you find that they actually made good law.  I have read all of them.  I don't any more, but every day I used to pull up court decisions to read them.  I loathed reading decisions written by certain justices because they tried to be obscure.  Breyer was one, he was so in love with Legal Latin, and splitting that hair that his decisions were hard to read.

Don't blame just the cops, look at the system, and what they allow.  Look at the lawyers and Judges, really look at them.  Also look at the laws passed by the Legislature.  Hold the DA's feet to the fire.  I have seen cases tossed due to really piss poor police work which made it impossible to get an honest conviction.  But I have also seen cases where the DA went ahead and filed stuff, stacked the deck, and later on down the road got an appeal that showed just how bad things went.  Check out the Michael Morton case in Williamson Count as a shining example of that.  That DA ended up getting elected as a judge, and eventually going to jail over his actions.  But poor Michael Morton spent 25 years in prison for a murder he did not commit.

[rmgill]

 

[Steven P Allen]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:15 PM, Skywalkre said:

 

Is it society's problem if police aren't getting trained properly? 

 

The answer is, yes:  it is.  This training is ultimately under the control of whatever person sits at the top of the department pyramid with "civilian" oversight, often the result of political cronyism and Criminal Justice degrees offered by public and private universities.   The street cops aren't training themselves:  their training is absolutely influenced and even created by "society."

[Murph]

53 minutes ago, Steven P Allen said:

The answer is, yes:  it is.  This training is ultimately under the control of whatever person sits at the top of the department pyramid with "civilian" oversight, often the result of political cronyism and Criminal Justice degrees offered by public and private universities.   The street cops aren't training themselves:  their training is absolutely influenced and even created by "society."

Completely on the mark.  During the the COVID lockdowns, we struggled to get our mandated training.  In Texas anyway, failure to get your training hours means you lose your peace officer license and therefore cannot be employed as a cop.  Same for jailers and dispatchers.  We ALL have to have mandatory training.  When you have the EEO hires at the top who are beholden to the Mayor or City Manager and all they want is revenue from tickets, or whatever you have an issue.  As far as I know only FIVE, repeat FIVE states require post academy education hours!  FIVE!  Texas, and the Communist Republic of Kaliforniastan are two of them.  California's POST standards are quite good.  

 

EEO hire failing upward:  https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/01/30/memphis-police-chief-once-fired-from-atlanta-pd-over-botched-sex-crimes-probe/

[NickM]

22 minutes ago, Murph said:

Completely on the mark.  During the the COVID lockdowns, we struggled to get our mandated training.  In Texas anyway, failure to get your training hours means you lose your peace officer license and therefore cannot be employed as a cop.  Same for jailers and dispatchers.  We ALL have to have mandatory training.  When you have the EEO hires at the top who are beholden to the Mayor or City Manager and all they want is revenue from tickets, or whatever you have an issue.  As far as I know only FIVE, repeat FIVE states require post academy education hours!  FIVE!  Texas, and the Communist Republic of Kaliforniastan are two of them.  California's POST standards are quite good.  

 

EEO hire failing upward:  https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/01/30/memphis-police-chief-once-fired-from-atlanta-pd-over-botched-sex-crimes-probe/

A stunning and brave diversity hire, what a surprise 

[Murph]

If you are the proper gender, race, sexual deviation, etc, you can fail miserably and get promoted in the Democrat held cities and organizations.  She is an obvious EEO hire, and probably they tailored the job description for someone like her to exclude competent people who might not check the right boxes so they can brag they have hired a [Fill in the blank].