When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[Ivanhoe]

21 hours ago, JWB said:

Former top FBI official arrested over ties to Russian oligarch (msn.com)

It gets worse, much worse;

https://www.todayonline.com/world/stalking-mole-fbi-held-5-years-pouncing
 

Quote

 

WASHINGTON — Face to face with a former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) officer in 2013, federal agents took a calculated risk.

They did not confront him about the classified information they had found in his luggage. And they did not ask what they most wanted to know: whether he was a spy for China.

It was a life-or-death call.

The Chinese government had been systematically picking off American spies in China, dismantling a network that had taken the CIA years to build. A mole hunt was underway, and the former officer Jerry Chun Shing Lee was the prime suspect.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) could have arrested him on the spot for possessing classified information. But inside a secretive government task force, investigators argued against it, former United States officials recalled.

 

 

Quote

 

When the CIA noticed in late 2010 that its spies were disappearing, suspicion did not immediately turn to Lee, according to current and former officials.

But as fears of a mole grew, the government set up a secret task force of CIA officers and FBI agents. A veteran FBI counter-intelligence agent Charles McGonigal, was assigned to run it, former US law enforcement officials said.

As the disappearances continued, analysts concluded that Lee, even though he had been out of the CIA for years, had known the identities of many of the those who had been killed or imprisoned.

 

 

Same fucker who helped the DNC advance the Russiagate op.

 

 

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

I could see how going to the door with an object in his hand that could be mistaken for a gun might motivate the cops outside to shoot.

But it was their camera drone. Their officer running it should have been able to report said fact. 
 

I expect that this will be a payout by the PD. 

[Murph]

15 hours ago, R011 said:

I could see how going to the door with an object in his hand that could be mistaken for a gun might motivate the cops outside to shoot.

I agree, it looked like a flashlight of some sort.  But what made me cringe was when they were in the house, noticed the cameras, and realized they had messed up, and commented on it, on camera.  I am just surprised they did not take the cameras and recorder.  

[Murph]

14 hours ago, rmgill said:

But it was their camera drone. Their officer running it should have been able to report said fact. 
 

I expect that this will be a payout by the PD. 

Agreed.  No one is perfect, and mistakes can be made.  It just looks really bad.  But notice the MSM has not picked up on it since the "victim" does not meet their preferred narrative.  

[Murph]

15 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

It gets worse, much worse;

https://www.todayonline.com/world/stalking-mole-fbi-held-5-years-pouncing
 

 

 

Same fucker who helped the DNC advance the Russiagate op.

 

 

There WAS Russian collusion, it was just on the part of the FBI, NOT Trump.  Ouch.  Once more the FBI looks like the Gestapo/keystone cops they really are.

[NickM]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Agreed.  No one is perfect, and mistakes can be made.  It just looks really bad.  But notice the MSM has not picked up on it since the "victim" does not meet their preferred narrative.  

And did I hear they were Cherokee cops? That mean they were Rez Cops?

[NickM]

16 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

It gets worse, much worse;

https://www.todayonline.com/world/stalking-mole-fbi-held-5-years-pouncing
 

 

 

Same fucker who helped the DNC advance the Russiagate op.

 

 

So the Russia collusion false narrative guy is an actual Russian agent?

[R011]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

Agreed.  No one is perfect, and mistakes can be made.  It just looks really bad.  But notice the MSM has not picked up on it since the "victim" does not meet their preferred narrative.  

 

2 hours ago, Murph said:

I agree, it looked like a flashlight of some sort.  But what made me cringe was when they were in the house, noticed the cameras, and realized they had messed up, and commented on it, on camera.  I am just surprised they did not take the cameras and recorder.  

I think they were talking about their small camera robot which the victim had picked up and had in his hand when he went to the door.  They may not have noticed the victim's security camera.

Apparently, a neighbour had claimed there was gunfire and a hostage there.  Obviously that was a lie.  The neighbour should be charged with something and sued for everything he owns and more.

[Murph]

1 hour ago, NickM said:

And did I hear they were Cherokee cops? That mean they were Rez Cops?

I am not sure, I tried to google it, but I am not sure at all.  It would not make any difference if they were, looks like they had a good inter-local agreement in place for help.

[Murph]

16 minutes ago, R011 said:

 

I think they were talking about their small camera robot which the victim had picked up and had in his hand when he went to the door.  They may not have noticed the victim's security camera.

Apparently, a neighbour had claimed there was gunfire and a hostage there.  Obviously that was a lie.  The neighbour should be charged with something and sued for everything he owns and more.

I cannot agree more.  Sounds like a Swatting call from what I have been able to understand.  There should be punishment for the caller.  Tim Pool keeps getting Swatted, and there should be stiff penalties for that.

[Murph]

1 hour ago, NickM said:

So the Russia collusion false narrative guy is an actual Russian agent?

Yes, but do you REALLY expect the FBI to be honorable?  Or even slightly ethical?  I don't.

[Skywalkre]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:10 AM, Murph said:

This bad, really really bad.  No way to defend this, especially with the comment when the SWAT guys found that the victim had cameras inside the house.  

https://www.kake.com/story/48213339/north-carolina-man-shot-by-police-releases-surveillance-video-from-night-of-the-shooting

 

To modify one of your recent quotes, Murph...

Quote

If the FBI/DOJ local police had not been so corrupt, and had actually obeyed the law of the land, and not been completely in the tank to cover up all Democrat their own scandals, and focused on getting Trump real criminals, perhaps Uncle Joe aka Pedo Pete actual criminals would have already been in prison along with Hunter bad cops for the rest of their lives.  But expecting honor, decency, and actual competence from the FBI/DOJ local police is far, far too much to hope for.  

There we go.  Fits for far more than just this video we saw... (Which, we only saw because the homeowner had the system... imagine how many incidents we're not hearing about.)

[Angrybk]

Imho cops in the US sometimes acting with excessive force is in fact a real problem, and we’ve kind of lost out by framing it as a white vs black thing. Remember that drunk white guy in Vegas a few years back who got killed by a cop with an AR while he was lying in the ground and following the cop’s orders completely. Or this case that’s now front page news: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-death-memphis

Edited January 26, 2023 by Angrybk

[FALightFighter]

14 hours ago, Angrybk said:

Imho cops in the US sometimes acting with excessive force is in fact a real problem, and we’ve kind of lost out by framing it as a white vs black thing. Remember that drunk white guy in Vegas a few years back who got killed by a cop with an AR while he was lying in the ground and following the cop’s orders completely. Or this case that’s now front page news: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-death-memphis

"Excessive force" doesn't even have to be actually shooting someone. Just watch "COPS" or any of those other live shows, or clips on Youtube (and just forget about police shows on TV, they are simply AWFUL, even if entertaining). Drawing a weapon is a presentation of lethal force. I know its risky, but rolling up on someone's house or car with drawn guns is an aggressive action that shouldn't take place without some immediately apparent threat from the suspect/person of interest. Yeah, it can be dangerous, and yeah, that sucks, but that's the nature of the duty- carrying weapons and executing lethal force for society carries inherent risk. And while I admit that my perceptions are probably skewed by TV, we have way too many police officers presenting a (admittedly implicit) threat of lethal force by drawing a weapon without provocation during interactions with people who are merely suspects, not involved in threatening activity at the time of the interaction.

[rmgill]

Depends on the state.

Drawing the weapon may not be a criminal act in and of itself without justification. Drawing a firearm could be as far as I understand a simple matter of just getting the firearm cleared of the holster for faster use if necessary. 

Pointing it at someone could be an issue. This is the case in Georgia. There's no brandishing statute. Pointing a gun at someone without justification would be an aggravated assault charge. 

/mr picky

[FALightFighter]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Depends on the state.

Drawing the weapon may not be a criminal act in and of itself without justification. Drawing a firearm could be as far as I understand a simple matter of just getting the firearm cleared of the holster for faster use if necessary. 

Pointing it at someone could be an issue. This is the case in Georgia. There's no brandishing statute. Pointing a gun at someone without justification would be an aggravated assault charge. 

/mr picky

That's why I deliberately chose the words "excessive force" and not "brandishing", "assault" or any of a number of other options. It IS, without a doubt, a presentation of force. And if there is no presentation of force on the part of the suspect, then it is at least arguably "excessive".

The point is that we (collectively, as a society) have moved pretty far down the continuum of how much force or threat of force we allow agents of the state to present before a similar threat is made by a citizen or other non-agent of the state.

[Murph]

17 hours ago, Angrybk said:

Imho cops in the US sometimes acting with excessive force is in fact a real problem, and we’ve kind of lost out by framing it as a white vs black thing. Remember that drunk white guy in Vegas a few years back who got killed by a cop with an AR while he was lying in the ground and following the cop’s orders completely. Or this case that’s now front page news: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-death-memphis

There is that.  But also I see it as a problem of communication, and society.  When I started we talked more folks into cuffs than we ever fought.  I was trained to talk to people (but that seems to be a Deputy Sheriff thing), but if they wanted to dance, well, we would dance.  Can I say that I have never screwed my .45 into someones ear and told them to not be a fool?  Absolutely not.  Have I taken people to jail, and actually been thanked for how nice I treated them on the way?  Yes, I have.  But I was taught by the old timers, who many times were at calls by themselves since there was NO backup available.  

But newer cops see the assaults on officers, the bad stuff constantly, and then they see the Communist News Network and the other libtard MSM second guessing decisions that have to be taken in a split second and somehow deciding that THEY would have made a different decision.  Most new officers are terrified of being the next victim of CNN/PMSDNC/NBC/CBS/ABC/etc.  So they hesitate and then instead of getting control of the situation when it is manageable and the suspect can be peacefully talked down, they let it get out of control, and bad things happen.

Another thing, is cops, especially young cops get amped up by what is being broadcast by dispatch, and that is ALL they know when they arrive at a scene.  Most of them only have that information, and when they get there, the situation is chaos, with screaming, conflicting stories, etc.  Also they might see an assault in progress and have to respond.  Lord help them if the assailant is a minority and they use "too much force" per the media and other second guessers.

Fighting someone and trying to NOT hurt them is a lot harder than ending the fight by hurting the bad guy.  And it looks terrible on body camera, and cell phone camera which never give context.   So officers since they are timid, tend to over-react because they are scared and amped up.  As a result "Bad sh*t" sometimes happens.  It is regrettable, and should always be investigated, but the investigation should be fair, not a "we have to appease this group, so we will throw the officer to the wolves" which happens too often, and officers know this.

Many years ago (30), I worked with a guy who had been fired from Houston PD at the beginning of the 1990's for other (official) reasons, but as he put it, for not carrying his "throw down gun".  He told me that some HPD substations had boxes of confiscated pistols that they were told to take and carry with them to "throw down" if they got into a bad shoot or other similar situation.  That officer died a few years ago of massive health issues.  I knew him when I worked at the University Police Department.  

And the Memphis thing shows that if cops do bad, they get indicted.  But all too often the cops are thrown away just to appease the group de jour who is howling that "No justice, No Peace! And poor bubba, despite being a career criminal was gunned down by those racist cops".  

I have no tolerance for bad cops, but I also understand that some who are labeled "Bad cops" are not in any way.

Another bad issue, is drugs, when some crazy motherplucker is tweaking on his/her/its favorite drug (usually meth), sometimes it takes a "dog pile" to get them down.  Also they cannot be reasoned with, cannot be talked down, and cannot be stopped without force.  And it looks bad on camera.  

 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, FALightFighter said:

That's why I deliberately chose the words "excessive force" and not "brandishing", "assault" or any of a number of other options. It IS, without a doubt, a presentation of force. And if there is no presentation of force on the part of the suspect, then it is at least arguably "excessive".

I can see a situation where drawing a gun might be reasonable. 

2 AM knock on the door when I am not expecting a visitor, I AM going to the door armed. If I'm in my bathrobe and skivies I don't have a good belt to have a holster attached to, so I'll be holding gun on my bladed off side as I approach the door and then check to see who is out there. It does not require any overt presentation of force on the part of the person knocking on my door, just an apprehension of something out of the ordinary and prudential actions on my part. 

I can see the same sort of reasonable action on the part of a cop approaching a car or any other number of situations. The above video though showing little Miss Dangerous pointing the gun at his head would seem to be over the top. 

2 hours ago, FALightFighter said:

The point is that we (collectively, as a society) have moved pretty far down the continuum of how much force or threat of force we allow agents of the state to present before a similar threat is made by a citizen or other non-agent of the state.

I draw it as a reasonable behavior for both types of parties in certain situations. Once you cover someone with your muzzle you better have a damn good justification. The presence of the arm or even it's carriage in the hand doesn't need a strong justification, just a reasonable apprehension of it's potential immediate need. 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

But newer cops see the assaults on officers, the bad stuff constantly, and then they see the Communist News Network and the other libtard MSM second guessing decisions that have to be taken in a split second and somehow deciding that THEY would have made a different decision.  Most new officers are terrified of being the next victim of CNN/PMSDNC/NBC/CBS/ABC/etc.  So they hesitate and then instead of getting control of the situation when it is manageable and the suspect can be peacefully talked down, they let it get out of control, and bad things happen.

I just learned of a shooting over here in Doraville, Ga that I suspect will be making some level of public news. Murph, you as an experienced officer, when you see it will probably have some strong words to say. 

You can probably suss out what happened from the below release. But when the body cam and dash cam footage are released you're going curse. I bet $5 on it. 

https://gbi.georgia.gov/press-releases/2023-01-19/gbi-investigates-officer-involved-shooting-doraville

[Murph]

Based on that, 100% legit shoot.  Absolutely no question in my mind it was a good shoot.  

[Skywalkre]

5 hours ago, FALightFighter said:

The point is that we (collectively, as a society) have moved pretty far down the continuum of how much force or threat of force we allow agents of the state to present before a similar threat is made by a citizen or other non-agent of the state.

Exactly.  I've lamented there's a double standard in favor of police for years on this forum.  I still struggle how Conservatives argue (indirectly) it's an acceptable thing. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Skywalkre]

 

4 hours ago, Murph said:

There is that.  But also I see it as a problem of communication, and society.  When I started we talked more folks into cuffs than we ever fought.  I was trained to talk to people (but that seems to be a Deputy Sheriff thing), but if they wanted to dance, well, we would dance. 

...

Another thing, is cops, especially young cops get amped up by what is being broadcast by dispatch, and that is ALL they know when they arrive at a scene.  Most of them only have that information, and when they get there, the situation is chaos, with screaming, conflicting stories, etc.  Also they might see an assault in progress and have to respond.  Lord help them if the assailant is a minority and they use "too much force" per the media and other second guessers.

Fighting someone and trying to NOT hurt them is a lot harder than ending the fight by hurting the bad guy.  And it looks terrible on body camera, and cell phone camera which never give context.   So officers since they are timid, tend to over-react because they are scared and amped up. 

Is it society's problem if police aren't getting trained properly?  Isn't this basically what those two examples are highlighting?  I remember years ago after one of the school shootings someone posted how a hair dresser required more hours of training than a police officer in that state.  Police are called into situations that are really mental health emergencies and have zero training to handle it (in this situation I'm actually sympathetic).  Policing is a job like any other with best practices... if those aren't being put into place or pushed out to the force that's not on society (outside of the fact society indirectly controls said agencies through funding and government... but there are examples of these changes being pushed against by police).

4 hours ago, Murph said:

As a result "Bad sh*t" sometimes happens.  It is regrettable, and should always be investigated, but the investigation should be fair, not a "we have to appease this group, so we will throw the officer to the wolves" which happens too often, and officers know this.

What do you mean by this?  I ask because the record over the last few decades is painfully clear that police are rarely convicted except for the most blatant and heinous examples (one of these in the last decade still took multiple trials for some reason...) and police that are fired, even for poor conduct, are often picked up by another agency in short order.  It's only very recently that folks who track this have noticed a small shift in the right direction.  This sounds like misconception by police ('everyone is out to get us!') rather than something that's actually happening.  Unless you mean something else... but what's worse than going to jail or losing your job?

4 hours ago, Murph said:

Many years ago (30), I worked with a guy who had been fired from Houston PD at the beginning of the 1990's for other (official) reasons, but as he put it, for not carrying his "throw down gun".  He told me that some HPD substations had boxes of confiscated pistols that they were told to take and carry with them to "throw down" if they got into a bad shoot or other similar situation. 

4 hours ago, Murph said:

And the Memphis thing shows that if cops do bad, they get indicted.  But all too often the cops are thrown away just to appease the group de jour who is howling that "No justice, No Peace! And poor bubba, despite being a career criminal was gunned down by those racist cops".

Again, this is only a recent historical shift.  Last I saw convictions are only rising slightly.  An officer can get on the stand and say "I felt my life was threatened," even if it wasn't, and that still carries a lot of weight with juries.

Again, I'm curious how a board full of Conservatives isn't up in arms over the various issues with local police that have been brought up over the last few decades.  Recently we've all lamented how high level politicians can walk away from mishandling sensitive information that would, and has, screwed over lower level nobodies... but we're ok with police having a different standard and being above the citizenry they're supposed to serve and protect.

ETA - Have you considered that it could be society changing to how police behave?  That was a major argument in Balko's "Rise of the Warrior Cop" and I haven't seen anything in the last decade to think he was wrong.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Skywalkre]

2 hours ago, rmgill said:

I can see a situation where drawing a gun might be reasonable. 

2 AM knock on the door when I am not expecting a visitor, I AM going to the door armed. If I'm in my bathrobe and skivies I don't have a good belt to have a holster attached to, so I'll be holding gun on my bladed off side as I approach the door and then check to see who is out there. It does not require any overt presentation of force on the part of the person knocking on my door, just an apprehension of something out of the ordinary and prudential actions on my part.

That very incident happened here in the Valley a few years ago.  Police at an apartment complex in the middle of the night, guy opens the door (the police were not visible through the peephole) with a gun in his hand, he does not make any threatening moves towards the officers, one officer opens fire and kills him.  You'll all be surprised to hear this... but nothing happened to the officers.  Phoenix PD just paid out a few million to the family.

My advice would be... don't open the door.  In case it's the police (but you don't know that) I wouldn't risk the chance of being shot.  Think about that for a second... in the US being given advice to not be seen with a weapon in a reasonable situation for fear the police may be there and kill you.  That's fucked up if things have reached that point (and it's fucked up what happened to that man above and how no officer was charged or even fired).

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skywalkre

[Murph]

This will take a while.  Juries tend to not convict cops for multiple reasons, but one of the biggest one is that Juries are made up of citizens who tend to be sympathetic to the almost impossible job that cops end up doing.  So as a result the ones are are convicted are the worst, or those in jurisdictions where you have a lot of Democrats (not being snarky, but truthful).  Even in Austin, which is Berkeley east they have a hard time getting juries to convict on the evidence the prosecutors send forward.  

The Supreme Court has always said, and refuses to budge off of the "reasonable officer" standard, they they spank lower courts who tend to engage in 20/20 hindsight.  The Supreme Court has never waivered on that (except for Sotomayor), and demands lower courts obey their ruling.  Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989) is the decision, and has never been over-ruled as far as I know.  Also: Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)  Then:Mullenix v. Luna, 577 U.S. ___ (2015) 

I cannot address other states, but Texas as of last year was one of only FIVE states that required continuing education credits/hours for all police (including constables, school cops, City Marshals, etc.)  Plus we have mandatory classes such as dealing with the mentally ill, racial sensitivity, the deaf, and such.  

Rise of the warrior cop has some good points, but I find it mis-states/overstates some areas.  SWAT came out of two places (according to my instructor at SWAT school)- New York and Los Angles.  Those two cities have VERY different attitudes on SWAT tactics: New York is going to bore you to death, talk, talk, talk.  The LA method is:  Ok we talked to you for all the time we are going to put up with your BS, it is @ss kicking time!  The LA method is the one taught at most SWAT schools.  

Plus part of the rise of the "Warrior Cop" also came out of the Feds, specifically the FBI HRT (see Waco), and the increasing situation where there are gangs who are pretty well armed by anyone's standards.  Some of the "warrior look" are the vest carriers, and such.  And part of that is to take some of the darn weight off of your lower back, which is why most cops (including me) have lower back problems as we get older.  

Where I do NOT disagree with Balko is I think that No- Knock warrants are over used, and should be an absolutely last resort and subject to extreme scrutiny.  I agree with Jack Dunphy who writes in National Review.  https://reason.com/2013/08/02/dunphy-reviews-balkos-rise-of-the-warrio/  Also there is an issue with why does the FDA need a SWAT team?  Why does the EPA?  The Federal agencies are the most militarized of all agencies.  When was the last time you saw an FBI agent go to prison or even be convicted for use of force?  I personally cannot.  

 

 

[EchoFiveMike]

You get the government you deserve.  

"We" are a loose accumulation of weak human shaped garbage existing in the declining ruins of a once great nation built by rugged, vigorous American men.  These weak fucks, especially the fork tongued swindlers, have supported this anarchic police state to justify(to those weak stupid gullible people) the creation of a giant "law enforcement" system to crush potential dissent or even the questioning of this fuckery.  It coincidently enriches many of these same parasites.

Actual men solve their own problems.  If you can't solve it individually, you enlist other men of your community.  You do have a community, don't you?  No, no we generally don't, that's been stolen from us, under the guise of "doing it for us."  No stupid, they're not doing it for you, they're doing it TO YOU.  You abdicated authority to these creatures with all these stupid  Libertarian and other swindles convincing you that the government was something else, not "we the People" as it says in the simple foundational documents.

Policing in a free country should be an elected sheriff, who raises a posse when actual crimes need to be handled beyond the capacity of one man.  If there's not enough people willing to help....that is it's own answer to the question.  If your community sucks, it's on the people in that community.  Just as it is anyways, this is just the open acknowledgment of this unavoidable fact.  S/F....Ken M