When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[R011]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Bad training, and bad department policy.  Although what part of the city was this?  A low crime, low threat area, or the projects where some random old guy will smoke you in a heartbeat?  Not excusing bad police work, but I need a little more context.  On the face of it, it looks bad, but is there more to the story?  If they were wrong, they need to be punished.  Also where was the supervisor?

More context never hurts, but the fat old man opened his door and put away the sword as soon as the police asked him to set it down.  He then stood there in his hallway in his underpants hands at his side with no weapon on him or near enough to grab without being very obvious and stoppable.  Even if he were a young, fit, wanted, gangbanger felon in the town's worst ghetto, they couldn't justify Tasing him as they did.

[Murph]

I could not get the video to play, so thank you for the context.  I sounds like the officers f'ed up, and that is a problem.  TASERS are something that was sold as a "magic bullet" to stop aggressive people, but has turned into an over used tool instead of de-escalation, and just talking to people or even going hands on to gain compliance.  

[Tim Sielbeck]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Again context?  What was the interaction?  I could not get the video to play.   Was the video the un-edited body camera video?  

There's text, two pictures (one of the victim, one of the victimizer), an embeded youtube video, and then the raw body-cam footage.

 

This is the Youtube video:  

 

[R011]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Again context?  What was the interaction?  I could not get the video to play.   Was the video the un-edited body camera video?  

Officer said he could smell weed in the car after it was pulled over.  Asked the driver to get out and he refused.  Looks to me that the guy was resisting while being pulled out of the car.  Not surprising that he got some bad looking but probably minor lacerations.

[Tim Sielbeck]

Just now, R011 said:

Not surprising that he got some bad looking but probably minor lacerations.

Except that he was knocked unconscious and the cops were huffing and puffing like they had just ran far more than the few feet from the drivers car.

[R011]

13 minutes ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

Except that he was knocked unconscious and the cops were huffing and puffing like they had just ran far more than the few feet from the drivers car.

As I said, an injury that can happen if you force police to drag you from a car.  It's not in itself an indicator of excessive force and nothing shown on the videos suggests otherwise.

[Tim Sielbeck]

Dragging from does NOT require that the person being dragged get pummeled about the head and body.

[R011]

6 minutes ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

Dragging from does NOT require that the person being dragged get pummeled about the head and body.

Sometimes it does when an individual is fighting back.  It also looked as if his head contacted the door frame as he was finally dragged out.  Is there a time stamp in the body cam video that shows police beating an unresisting suspect?

[Murph]

Thanks I watched it, and the guy was resisting, so I will give it a pass at this point.  Fights LOOK bad especially if you are NOT trying to hurt someone.  I can say this from having been in more than my fair share of such struggles.  You would be shocked at how tired you are after a fight where you are NOT trying to hurt the person, just to get compliance.  I have been exhausted after dragging a 100lb drunk, belligerant female out of a car, trying not to hurt her in the process.  

[NickM]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Thanks I watched it, and the guy was resisting, so I will give it a pass at this point.  Fights LOOK bad especially if you are NOT trying to hurt someone.  I can say this from having been in more than my fair share of such struggles.  You would be shocked at how tired you are after a fight where you are NOT trying to hurt the person, just to get compliance.  I have been exhausted after dragging a 100lb drunk, belligerant female out of a car, trying not to hurt her in the process.  

100lb wymmyn comment reminded me of an article about  Rita Moreno I read years ago. There were rather snide comments in it about how it took 4 police officers to get cuffs on her.

[Murph]

1 hour ago, NickM said:

100lb wymmyn comment reminded me of an article about  Rita Moreno I read years ago. There were rather snide comments in it about how it took 4 police officers to get cuffs on her.

Small people can fight hard, and it is really tough when you are NOT trying to hurt them.  It is over in a few seconds if you are trying to hurt them.  We (cops) try not to hurt people intentionally, but sometimes it happens.

[rmgill]

 

 

[Murph]

Ok, in Texas what they are doing is called an FE&D (Forcible Entry and Detainer), and is handled by the JP Court and Constables.  We (Sheriff's Offices can do it, but the Constables handle most of them).  What they did was wrong, weird, and why were they not in uniform?  Here the Civil guys are in uniform.  Also they have to have the court papers with them, and are not allowed to cut cameras, etc.  I cannot speak about West Virginia.  

It initially looked like Narcs to me.  

[Ivanhoe]

Murph, the word you are looking for is "criminals."

No warrant, no exigent circumstances => criminal. Armed while B&E => felons. 

 

[rmgill]

Likely they were way off the reservation and needed to be jerked up short by a set of bracelets and ankle irons. 

[Steven P Allen]

I doubt that the legal judgment came out of the creeps' pockets, but perhaps it will hurt the dept. enough to put a tighter leash on their attack dogs.

[DKTanker]

Murph, have you kept up with the Aaron Dean case?  Ft Worth officer sentenced to 12 years for manslaughter as a result of shooting a woman pointing a gun through a window while responding to an "Open Door" call.

[Murph]

I have not, but I will look at it when I get home.  Sometimes I just wish media and some prosecutors could spend a week doing that job.  Just a week on the streets having to make decisions in a split second.  

[Murph]

20 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Murph, the word you are looking for is "criminals."

No warrant, no exigent circumstances => criminal. Armed while B&E => felons. 

 

I cannot disagree.

[nitflegal]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:26 PM, Murph said:

Small people can fight hard, and it is really tough when you are NOT trying to hurt them.  It is over in a few seconds if you are trying to hurt them.  We (cops) try not to hurt people intentionally, but sometimes it happens.

Former club bouncer here says

[DB]

Drunk people and those in the depths of the "Red Mist" fight stupid, too. Struggling against a pile of people who individually weigh more than you will tear muscles and damage joints pretty severely when you're fully committed.

[rmgill]

People hopped up on PCP (edit I plead lack of caffine me lud)  and other drugs can also fight amazingly well in-part because they don't feel the pain. They also sweat and have usually discarded clothes which adds to the complexity. Then they cone down off the drugs and go into cardiac arrest. And the. Everyone wonders 'why that mean old cop kilt that poor sweet boy.'

Edited December 23, 2022 by rmgill

[Murph]

A friend who was on Dallas PD related a story from many years ago, he responded to a call of a naked woman with a knife who had carved up her boyfriend.  As he was enroute, it became a "shots fired" call.  He arrived and there was a deceased 300+ naked woman with 10 bullet holes in her, one right between the eyes.  There was also a very dead 140-150lb naked male with multiple stab wounds.  

What I was told that an officer and his trainee had arrived, the woman lunged at them.  The rookie put 6 rounds of .357 magnum in the "10 ring".  At which point the woman stated: "You can't hurt me I am INVINCIBLE!"  The trainer put four rounds of .45 Long Colt into her, the last right between the running lights, which finally turned her off.   Autopsy and investigation revealed a paranoid schizophrenic on PCP.  According to the ME, she was clinically dead after the first six rounds.  

The rookie went back to Dallas PD, took his stuff off, walked out the door, and they never saw him again.  The trainer got the twitches every time someone said; "I'm Invincible".   The media went into "why did they have to shoot her so many times".  This was in the mid 1990's.

[rmgill]

My friend here in Atl who is a very experienced and large officer described one encounter with a little lanky PCP berserker as one of his most near edge fights of his career. He described how when the PCP berserker grabbed his arm in the scuffle the grip was like when as a child your father grabs ahold of your arm in a very bad moment of you've really pissed off your dad and you aren't getting him to let go. 
 

None of the usual hand ti hand stuff worked and the pain compliance tricks just made the guy more angry. 
 

From seeing the footage of dudes who have torn their clothes off in sub zero weather and then are ranting, crying, raging and then calm in rapid succession. Yeah. Prosecutors and other folks need to have some grounding in that reality of shoot don't shoot...

[sunday]

Quote

If your home is broken into in the UK, the Police literally don't respond anymore.

Yet if you pray silently outside an abortion clinic, they'll search and arrest you.

https://gab.com/TommyRobinsonOfficial/posts/109558679049124580

https://nypost.com/2022/12/22/uk-woman-arrested-for-praying-across-from-abortion-clinic/

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253131/woman-arrested-by-english-police-for-silent-prayer-in-buffer-zone-near-abortion-facility