When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[Murph]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I've commented on these over the years in greater detail as they were happening but I imagine the various technical difficulties the site has had over the years probably pruned them.

The one that I recall the best was something about a loophole where police could save their vacation days, cash them all out the day they retire, then receive a drastically higher retirement.  The argument being pushed by the police was something along the lines of "these officers had planned for this for years and it wasn't fair to take it away, getting rid of it would kill morale and lower public safety."  The argument was hogwash and just highlighted the greed of so many of these officers (who have always been paid decently here in the Valley).  If something is broken and unsustainable you fix it, period.  The cost of this loophole and the unsustainability of it was in the news for years yet police still pushed back against fixing it.

SAPD and Austin PD have in their police union contracts a clause where if they get suspended, they can forfeit vacation days in lieu of serving the suspension without pay.  Also they bank their vacation for this reason.  When I retired the county had to pay me my unused vacation days but in a lump sum.  It paid for a new laptop for me, and some repairs around the house.  My retirement was set, and so my vacation days do not add to that.  I did get a nice little check though, but only once.  I DID Not get paid for my unused sick leave, only vacation leave.  But we are only allowed to have a max of 100 hours, not days.  SAPD/Austin PD/and other places allow them to keep a whole lot more.   But they have a strong union contract.

[MiloMorai]

Hard to defend Texas cops when 400 or so stood around while young children bled to death in Uvalde.

[Murph]

38 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Hard to defend Texas cops when 400 or so stood around while young children bled to death in Uvalde.

And I will be the last to defend those people in Uvalde.  The Chief of Police dithered, the Texas Ranger in the hall had his thumb up his @ss, the other troopers did nothing (and both they and the Ranger are suspended and expect to be fired), the other officers were waiting for command to tell them to go in.  I have some sources who know a lot more than is being reported on the media.  It was a complete storm of failure up the chain of command.  There was a DPS captain who was dazed and confused.  Believe me this has been dissected A LOT.  Before I retired be had meetings, and more meetings over this.  Our directions from my former Sheriff were, you go in and do what you were trained to do, don't wait.  

The higher ups in Uvalde were panicking over "liability" and the Chief of School Police was hired and was nothing more or less than a retirement hire.  Same with the female trooper they hired and fired afterwards when they found out that she was a complete loser.  Oh, no we in Texas are disgusted and horrified about what did not happen.  Again law enforcement was knee capped by both fear of lawyers ("Oh that poor mentally ill boy was gunned down in cold blood by those racist cops!") and fear of ignoring orders (and getting fired) and just going in and smoking the guy.  No cop wants to be the next victim of CNN.  Or spend the rest of their life fending off opportunistic lawsuits from shyster lawyers.  

But in the end no excuses for the piss poor pathetic response.  They failed.  On all levels.  But mostly you need to fire all the commanders from lieutenant on up since they created the mess.

[Skywalkre]

21 hours ago, Murph said:

SAPD and Austin PD have in their police union contracts a clause where if they get suspended, they can forfeit vacation days in lieu of serving the suspension without pay.  Also they bank their vacation for this reason.  When I retired the county had to pay me my unused vacation days but in a lump sum.  It paid for a new laptop for me, and some repairs around the house.  My retirement was set, and so my vacation days do not add to that.  I did get a nice little check though, but only once.  I DID Not get paid for my unused sick leave, only vacation leave.  But we are only allowed to have a max of 100 hours, not days.  SAPD/Austin PD/and other places allow them to keep a whole lot more.   But they have a strong union contract.

I've said it a few times on here during your recent absence - unions are the problem and their actions highlight that a majority of cops aren't good people anymore (given union leadership is voted on by its members coupled to the actions they repeatedly have taken regarding bad cops over the years).

So... what's the solution?  I've asked this before... didn't really get a good answer.  Simply getting rid of unions isn't the answer given the dangers (amongst others) you've mentioned.  However, leaving things as is clearly isn't the solution, either.  You all talk about cleaning house at the Fed level... I'd say it needs to start with all local and state police.

[Murph]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

I've said it a few times on here during your recent absence - unions are the problem and their actions highlight that a majority of cops aren't good people anymore (given union leadership is voted on by its members coupled to the actions they repeatedly have taken regarding bad cops over the years).

So... what's the solution?  I've asked this before... didn't really get a good answer.  Simply getting rid of unions isn't the answer given the dangers (amongst others) you've mentioned.  However, leaving things as is clearly isn't the solution, either.  You all talk about cleaning house at the Fed level... I'd say it needs to start with all local and state police.

I will disagree with you here, I would say that MOST cops are decent, but the bad apples which in all too many cases cannot be gotten rid of become toxic and drag an agency down.  I don't have a good solution, that is for people smarter than I am.  BUT when you let politicians get involved they usually make it worse.  The problem with most young cops is they want to come in and save the world, be the Paladins, and the hero who saves the day.  They rapidly get disillusioned by both internal and external forces.  Those are the people they deal with among the citizenry, then the Field Training Officers who are retired on duty, the supervisors who are so intent on getting promoted that they will throw their subordinates under the bus to get ahead,  so if it appears there are few "good" cops, its not that, most get worn down all too soon. BTDT.  The rose colored glasses get broken really quickly.  Mine got busted the first time I had arrested the husband for beating the wife, and the next thing I know I have a spitting wildcat on my back trying to claw my eyes out since I was taking away the "Love of her life, and provider for her children".  She got slammed to the ground and both went to jail that night.  I went to the hospital to have my injuries treated.  

An example is TCOLE (Texas Commission on Law Enforcement training and education) recently in the last year came up with a brilliant idea to let them set standards for background checks.  Problem is they never asked people like me who has done backgrounds for 21+ years on some best practices,  As a result, the new "background" system is even more disfunctional than the old system.  Some of their ideas were good, but oddly enough I had been doing those things for almost two decades.    Then TCOLE made a grab to take over ALL Internal Affairs investigations in the state.  I cannot imagine how bad that would have worked out.  Thank G_d that the Legislature saw this for what it was a power grab to keep from being disbanded.  TCOLE was headed to be sunsetted, and disbanded, since they also are terrible at training.   TCOLE is a shining example of how NOT to do something if you want it done right.  We could  call and ask a question on how to apply one of their directives, and we would get told to essentially "figure it out, but if you chose wrong, then we will come down and file criminal charges against you".  And if you do get an answer from one person another will give you a completely diffferent answer.  

At one point San Antonio Police had a contract that gave them triple time and a half if they had to work on holidays, they have night pay, education pay, shift differential pay.  Most would wait till five minutes before shift end and then arrest some one so they would get double time for over time.  That contract was horrible.  I remember 28+ years ago I had just started working at a college pd (lasted 2 months before I went to a "real" department for a year, then went to the Sheriff's Office.  Anyway, a disturbance occurred off campus, SAPD showed up, I went over to see what was going on, and the sgt told all of his guys to take off their name plates before they went inside.  I decided I needed to be elsewhere fast.  Never figured out what happened.  I suspect I would not like the answer.  

In my total of 30 years in law enforcement, I have been shot at, had guns pulled on me, been stabbed, kicked, punched, spit on, had piss thrown on me, etc, etc.  I just tried to follow my old sheriff's three rules:

1) Never lie, ever.

2) When the handcuffs go on, the hands go off. Period.

3) Treat everyone like you want your mama treated.

Pretty simple when you think about it.  I feel bad for the cops today who have a rule/policy book the size of War and Peace.

 

[Murph]

Ok properly done an Internal Affairs investigation is a two part investigation, a) A civil investigation controlled by Garrity, and b) possibly a criminal investigation which comes under Miranda, etc.  The Garrity investigation is administrative, and the person is compelled under threat of losing their job to tell the truth.  Compelled.  But due to Garrity, NOTHING they tell me on the Administrative side can be used in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER in any criminal investigation.  Because Garrity requires you to testify against yourself.  It is based on a Court Case from New Jersey (Garrity v New Jersey 1967).  There is a Garrity warning that shall be read to the object of the investigation.  http://www.garrityrights.org/garrity-warnings.html

The Criminal investigation cannot ever know anything what is said in the Garrity investigation, and Garrity material is exposed the criminal case is dismissed due to taint.  So for us, I would do the Garrity investigation and the Texas Ranger would do the Criminal portion.  Now as the Garrity investigator, I could get any and all information on the criminal side, but the Ranger (and the DA) could never get to see my Garrity report.  Plus I could not be called to court and made to testify about the contents of the Garrity report based on the above case.  It is wierd.  

[Rick]

10 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I've said it a few times on here during your recent absence - unions are the problem and their actions highlight that a majority of cops aren't good people anymore (given union leadership is voted on by its members coupled to the actions they repeatedly have taken regarding bad cops over the years).

So... what's the solution?  I've asked this before... didn't really get a good answer.  Simply getting rid of unions isn't the answer given the dangers (amongst others) you've mentioned.  However, leaving things as is clearly isn't the solution, either.  You all talk about cleaning house at the Fed level... I'd say it needs to start with all local and state police.

Perhaps a reason is that legislatures pass so many "criminal" laws to prove they are doing something. Said laws are then passed down the the police to enforce. One example is in Indiana you can ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but woa to the one who rides in a car without a seat belt used. 

[Murph]

The best I can say is legislators get paid to look busy and support those who fund them.

[Murph]

The most terrifying word to Police administrators is "liability", I have seen it in action.  You mention "liability" and administrators shut their brains off an panic.  The put policies in place that prevent cops from actually doing their jobs to prevent "liability".  That is why most policy books are the size of War and Peace, and in the end all they say is "If you make a mistake it is on you, and we will not defend you" to the line cops.  Racial profiling stats have be be compiled monthly and sent to the Attorney General's Office, UCR/NIBRS reports have to be compiled monthly and sent to the FBI/DOJ, Inmate deaths have to be reported to the Attorney General's Office within a short time period (I think 72, sometimes the autopsy has not even been completed before we have to tell the AG why and how the guy died, when we don't even know), Officer shootings have to be reported within another short time frame with pages of information.  Then there is the violent crime report form which runs to 90(!!!) pages.  We had several clerks who did nothing else but fill out this paperwork and send to to the AG and DOJ/FBI.  

[Murph]

Oh, and do not get me started on "Asset forfeiture" laws.  I think they are the most abused law ever.  OMG! I hate those laws.  I understand they have a good purpose, but they are some of the most abused laws ever.  In Texas asset forfeiture comes under Chapter 59 of the Code of Criminal Procedure.  It spells out what you can and cannot do.  in the CCP there is also Chapter 47, which is where you have recovered property, and want to get it back to the owner, but two people can have a legitimate claim, then you take it to a JP and let them argue in front of the judge as to who has the better claim to the property.  

[rmgill]

5 hours ago, Murph said:

Racial profiling stats have be be compiled monthly and sent to the Attorney General's Office, UCR/NIBRS reports have to be compiled monthly and sent to the FBI/DOJ,   

This right here is an issue. If you are deducing that disparities/rates of stops of black people in a given area is evidence of racism, then you could have a Good R run PD but still have it be hamstrung by the sword of Damocles in the form of a liberal run DOJ. Which, even with R's in the oval office still tend to be very D-ish. 

[rmgill]

5 hours ago, Murph said:

Oh, and do not get me started on "Asset forfeiture" laws.  I think they are the most abused law ever.  OMG! I hate those laws.  I understand they have a good purpose, but they are some of the most abused laws ever.  In Texas asset forfeiture comes under Chapter 59 of the Code of Criminal Procedure.  It spells out what you can and cannot do.  in the CCP there is also Chapter 47, which is where you have recovered property, and want to get it back to the owner, but two people can have a legitimate claim, then you take it to a JP and let them argue in front of the judge as to who has the better claim to the property.  

Wait, you can't just use the SOP that the FBI uses when searching safe deposit boxes? 

[Skywalkre]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:16 PM, Murph said:

I will disagree with you here, I would say that MOST cops are decent, but the bad apples which in all too many cases cannot be gotten rid of become toxic and drag an agency down.

For the first part of this to be true the second part means things have to be so dysfunctional and toxic everywhere that that toxic minority effectively has control.

Like I said before... sounds like we need to scrap almost all local LE agencies and start over?

[Murph]

3 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

For the first part of this to be true the second part means things have to be so dysfunctional and toxic everywhere that that toxic minority effectively has control.

Like I said before... sounds like we need to scrap almost all local LE agencies and start over?

The problem is the toxic ones are not fired as quickly as they should be, and like most problems the toxic officer starts small and then metastasizes into a cancer on the agency which would love to get rid of him/her but due many times to things such as Union contracts, Civil Service rules, or just the plain old "good old boy" system, they are not gotten rid of.  When I was doing backgrounds one of the big red flags for me was the "gypsy" cop.

Now for non LE folks a "Gypsy" cop is one who bounces from agency to agency often times just ahead of some sort of disciplinary issue that the former agency will not reveal since they are so glad to get rid of the officer.  In many cases when you speak with them they give this guy a glowing recommendation.  The way to catch that (at least how I did it) is to physically go to the agency and look at his records which sometimes meant I was on the road for 8-10 hours, but it was worth it.  Also Gypsy cops are a cancer so when you see a guy has been employed in five agencies in 4-6 years, that is a BIG warning sign to not hire this guy.

Texas is trying to crack down on the "gypsy cop" phenomenon but TCOLE is just muddying the waters.  They are trying.  When an agency tells you the applicant is a cross between Chuck Norris, and Sherlock Holmes and he has been with them only six months to a year that is a major red flag.  

So what they do is "downsize" they go to smaller agencies which usually have 1-2 full time officers who cannot take the time to do a complete background, they get hired, and then more problems start.  Then when he gets to doing his BS again, the Chief tries to fire the guy, and he threatens a lawsuit, so in order to get him to go away and the small town avoid an insanely expensive lawsuit, they give him an "Honorable" discharge and send him on the way.  

Another problem is if you do give a guy a General or Dishonorable discharge, they always take it to TCOLE which has an administrative hearing, and most get overturned and the agency is forced to show it as an Honorable discharge.  I did a background on a guy once who got caught, in broad daylight, having sex with a local female on the hood of his patrol car in the city park.  He also did a lot of other things (including desertion from the US Army which no one had ever discovered till we did his background!, and he had been employed by three other agencies), he was given a dishonorable discharge, he threatened to sue the city, and so to settle the lawsuit they gave him an honorable discharge.   Thanks to what we did, he actually got indicted and convicted for falsification of government records.  

Also unfortunately agencies are handicapped by fear of lawsuits which prevent them from dealing with their problem children and making sure they would never get another cop job.  They tell you in background school the cost of a failure to hire lawsuit will cost an agency $30-50,000, a "wrongful termination" lawsuit will cost an agency $500,000 to $1,000,000.  So many city administrators are scared of lawyers.

[Murph]

On 11/3/2022 at 5:10 PM, rmgill said:

Wait, you can't just use the SOP that the FBI uses when searching safe deposit boxes? 

NO!  Not ever!  We have to obey the law, the FBI does not.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Skywalkre said:

For the first part of this to be true the second part means things have to be so dysfunctional and toxic everywhere that that toxic minority effectively has control.

Like I said before... sounds like we need to scrap almost all local LE agencies and start over?

Now do federal agencies. Oh wait. They can't be fired because they have a fundamental right if due process to their jobs, unlike anyone else in the US. 
 

There you can literally snipe a woman holding a baby and be promoted/protected. Lawful use of deadly force laws need not be applied. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by rmgill

[Murph]

20 hours ago, rmgill said:

Now do federal agencies. Oh wait. They can't be fired because they have a fundamental right if due process to their jobs, unlike anyone else in the US. 
 

There you can literally snipe a woman holding a baby and be promoted/protected. Lawful use of deadly force laws need not be applied. 

They cannot be charged under State laws because of Federal pre-emption.  They can only be charged under Federal law for violations they commit while acting "under color of law".  Under Color of Law is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning.  

That being said the local Secret Service folks are just wonderful.  I cannot speak highly enough of them, they are like the Anti-FBI.  

I once tried to get a big identity theft case taken by the Feds, and the local US Attorney's office refused, unless each victim has over $100,000 loss they would not take the case.  Granted the total was about $350,000 but no one victim was out over $100,000.   US Attorney's offices have great discretion on what they do and do not take.  

[NickM]

22 hours ago, rmgill said:

Now do federal agencies. Oh wait. They can't be fired because they have a fundamental right if due process to their jobs, unlike anyone else in the US. 
 

There you can literally snipe a woman holding a baby and be promoted/protected. Lawful use of deadly force laws need not be applied. 

speaking of FBI sharpshooters at Ruby Ridge; Remember 'The Jackal', that abortion of a remake of 'Day Of The Jackal'? In the end they chose to have an Asian Actor play the FBI sniper who's shot saved the first lady from the Jackal's attack. If I didn't know better, I'd call that a 'deliberate F/You'.

EDIT: I ain't seen the flick since it's release in 1992 (In spite of it killing Jack Black), but I notice the cast includes Daniel Day Kim, playing a character named "Takashi", whom I assume was the sniper.

Edited November 6, 2022 by NickM
addendum.

[MiloMorai]

Aman who was helping a shooting victim outside a Pennsylvania Walmart died on Sunday after another man believed to be an off-duty police officer allegedly forced him to the ground.

Man Aiding Walmart Shooting Victim Dies After Police Knock Him to Ground (msn.com)

[JWB]

California police seized more than $17,000 from Vera and Apollonia Ward and accused them of laundering drug money, all without charging them with a crime. The two sisters were trying to start a dog-breeding business.

https://reason.com/2022/11/07/these-sisters-tried-to-start-a-business-police-seized-their-cash-and-accused-them-of-being-drug-traffickers/?fbclid=IwAR3CzXjteEEeUE0KXdhQA4wityu8PNaUi7N7S5TpxkO4AEW2sD4ihv7Oz00

[Sardaukar]

On 11/6/2022 at 6:39 PM, Murph said:

I once tried to get a big identity theft case taken by the Feds, and the local US Attorney's office refused, unless each victim has over $100,000 loss they would not take the case.  Granted the total was about $350,000 but no one victim was out over $100,000.   US Attorney's offices have great discretion on what they do and do not take.  

Now, that is something...

I think that is...way to bring up the trust to justice system...

[Murph]

10 minutes ago, JWB said:

California police seized more than $17,000 from Vera and Apollonia Ward and accused them of laundering drug money, all without charging them with a crime. The two sisters were trying to start a dog-breeding business.

https://reason.com/2022/11/07/these-sisters-tried-to-start-a-business-police-seized-their-cash-and-accused-them-of-being-drug-traffickers/?fbclid=IwAR3CzXjteEEeUE0KXdhQA4wityu8PNaUi7N7S5TpxkO4AEW2sD4ihv7Oz00

In all too many jurisdictions "Asset Forfeiture" is just legalized theft, and the problem is that YOU have to prove you have a legitimate right to that money...  Texas has some protections, but not enough to make me happy.  Some states like California are a free for all.  

[Murph]

7 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

Now, that is something...

I think that is...way to bring up the trust to justice system...

They take what they want, and they only take the 100% winnable, or the almost 100% "sexy" cases that get them a lot of good press.  Plus the Feds do not have to follow the rules that I do in Texas, they can hide evidence, and never let you see it that would prove you innocent and there a NO penalties for the attorney's/Special Agents when they do this.

[rmgill]

Seriously. They routinely hide exculpatory evidence which is normally required by legal ethics to be provided to the defense. 

[Sardaukar]

7 minutes ago, Murph said:

They take what they want, and they only take the 100% winnable, or the almost 100% "sexy" cases that get them a lot of good press.  Plus the Feds do not have to follow the rules that I do in Texas, they can hide evidence, and never let you see it that would prove you innocent and there a NO penalties for the attorney's/Special Agents when they do this.

I know you know what you talk about...

And that is fookin creepy. 

It is almost like "guilty has been found, now crime will be found too"...