When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[nitflegal]

It  is utterly fascinating to me how in 2 years the liberals and conservatives have flipped places in how they feel about cops.  Long term I am genuinely curious how this plays out as both sides have learned that police officers, by and large, will do what they are told by their superiors regardless of what it is.  I have noticed that the whole "soldiers and police are gun-owning conservatives and when the liberals finally overreach they will find their enforcers will not follow orders" stuff that the right has been repeating for my lifetime has faded away rather a lot. . .

[Harold Jones]

1 hour ago, nitflegal said:

...I have noticed that the whole "soldiers and police are gun-owning conservatives and when the liberals finally overreach they will find their enforcers will not follow orders" stuff that the right has been repeating for my lifetime has faded away rather a lot. . .

I think law enforcement's generally low view of 'civilians' and especially ones who are not compliant trumps any political leanings.  Based on what I see here and on various social media sites, whether the cops breaking up a protest are heroes or jack booted thugs pretty much depends on whether or not the poster agrees with protesters.

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, nitflegal said:

It  is utterly fascinating to me how in 2 years the liberals and conservatives have flipped places in how they feel about cops.  Long term I am genuinely curious how this plays out as both sides have learned that police officers, by and large, will do what they are told by their superiors regardless of what it is.  I have noticed that the whole "soldiers and police are gun-owning conservatives and when the liberals finally overreach they will find their enforcers will not follow orders" stuff that the right has been repeating for my lifetime has faded away rather a lot. . .

“There are no principles; there are only events. There is no good and bad, there are only circumstances. The superior man espouses events and circumstances in order to guide them. If there were principles and fixed laws, nations would not change them as we change our shirts and a man can not be expected to be wiser than an entire nation.”
― Honoré de Balzac

[BansheeOne]

Maybe it's more of a fringe vs. mainstream thing, and the former bleeding into the latter; but even locally I'm getting the impression that attitudes and language are slowly reversing between the Left and Right, both on domestic and foreign issues. The New Right here (Alt-Right for USians) has of course deliberately taken over successful tactics and action forms of the Left since maybe six or seven years, particularly visible in the Identitarian Movement which rose to some prominence during the 2015/16 refugee crisis; I've also noted for some time that globalism is the new imperialism, and a good current right-wing rant against the elites of the former is indistinguishable from a left-wing one against the elites of the latter from 25-30 years ago if you switch those terms.

However I suspect there's a greater generational change at work - politically speaking rather than determined by date of birth, as a lot of the current activism on the Right here seems to be by middle-aged folks who appear to have missed out on rebelling at the more usual young age. While they might sound like orthodox leftists of the previous millenium, including an anti-capitalist streak and gullibleness to Eastern authoritarianism, the younger political generation of left-wingers not formed by the bi-polar ideology of the Cold War who grew into power in those last 25-30 years find themselves in a society that has actually achieved many of the aims regarding equality, environmentalism, gender roles etc. claimed by their predecessors.

Sure, there's always politically even younger, more radical social justice warriors, but for now the generation of left-wingers at the age of power largely represent the status quo, and to right-wingers for whom change has gone too far they're the establishment. We can debate all day about the differences and similarities between reactionaries and revolutionaries, but as far as The System and The Rebels go, the roles have largely switched between the Left and Right. So it's probably unsurprising that their respective views of the state's authority and its tools have, too.

 

[rmgill]

5 hours ago, nitflegal said:

It  is utterly fascinating to me how in 2 years the liberals and conservatives have flipped places in how they feel about cops. 

Have they though? It's question of who the cops work for I think. 

I have no problems with cops responding with violene to violence. I have a problem with cops using excessive force where its not warranted. 

I know cops who are aghast at what's going on in Canada. One makes a differentiation between ages of officers, young ones willing to do anything they're told and older, wiser officers having to hold them back or insert some sanity. 
 

5 hours ago, nitflegal said:

 I have noticed that the whole "soldiers and police are gun-owning conservatives and when the liberals finally overreach they will find their enforcers will not follow orders" stuff that the right has been repeating for my lifetime has faded away rather a lot. . .

It's age striated. 

[nitflegal]

35 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Have they though? It's question of who the cops work for I think. 

I have no problems with cops responding with violene to violence. I have a problem with cops using excessive force where its not warranted. 

I know cops who are aghast at what's going on in Canada. One makes a differentiation between ages of officers, young ones willing to do anything they're told and older, wiser officers having to hold them back or insert some sanity. 
 

It's age striated. 

One of my 3 closest friends (and longest known) is a cop so I'm not reflexively anti-police.  However, even to me it seems obvious that as a group, they will do what they are directed to do.  How many cops refused to enforce Covid policy?  How many in Canada are refusing to break up anti-government peaceful protests?  How many refused to back away from the widespread stand-down order with the BLM riots?  One realization that has come with maturity to me is that people like Jordan Peterson are dead right when they state that with similar events as happened in late-1930's Germany the vast majority of people would have actively supported the Nazis or at the least done nothing to hinder them.  Maybe 1 percent (wishful thinking that it would be that high) of people would have harbored Anne Frank, the rest would have turned her and her family in.  People expecting cops, soldiers, politicians, truck drivers or anyone as a group to put their careers and families on the line for people they have never known is as delusional as believing that communism can work if it is just applied by the right people.

[rmgill]

8 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

One of my 3 closest friends (and longest known) is a cop so I'm not reflexively anti-police.  However, even to me it seems obvious that as a group, they will do what they are directed to do.  How many cops refused to enforce Covid policy? 

Well, a good cop is going to ask what he's enforcing and if it's even constitutional. My friend brought this up as a clear point of contention. But this is also because he's an older cop and thinks not about what he was told to do but what the long term implications are. Just because a politician SAYS enforce X doesn't make it legal and if you, as a cop, bust someone's head over orders that were never legally founded in the first place you're the one who's holding the bag of liability.

 This is as  simple as comparisons between departments that are fine with officers searching someone because they have a gun and need to check for a license (a search that is factually speaking lacking in RAS or PC for the stop in the first place) vs departments that tell the officers that if they get a man with a gun call, to show up, look to see what the subject is doing, and if they're say sitting eating food and you can kinda see a handgun that's properly holstered to not even make contact with the subject and to treat it as a false alarm. 

I'm personally, quite particular in my criticism of cops. I'll look at the situation and the details and decide from the details including the idea of what would happen if a regular person was in the same position. 

8 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

How many in Canada are refusing to break up anti-government peaceful protests?  How many refused to back away from the widespread stand-down order with the BLM riots? 

There have been cops that have posted on twitter, etc refusing to do anything and expressing support. Likely they were set aside in this or they were from rural areas which tend more to the peace officer mindset vs the law enforcement officer mindset. 

8 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

One realization that has come with maturity to me is that people like Jordan Peterson are dead right when they state that with similar events as happened in late-1930's Germany the vast majority of people would have actively supported the Nazis or at the least done nothing to hinder them. 

Yep. His foray into this was through psychological means in that he was trying to figure out the mindset of folks doing such things and how they make such a jump. The extreme example is older German Cops sent to the Ost Front who worked as Feldgendarmerie and who several years before were hunting down murderers, and somehow, they had transmuted to the sort of person that would drag a naked woman into a field and shoot her in the head. 

The drive to not leave your comrades in the lurch is a point that's raised. 

8 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

People expecting cops, soldiers, politicians, truck drivers or anyone as a group to put their careers and families on the line for people they have never known is as delusional as believing that communism can work if it is just applied by the right people.

I think it'll be one of those things that's going to have people flipping sides when push comes to shove. The best parallel I can think of is the heat being turned up with the Protestant Reformation and the banning of printing presses. The 30 years war as a thing on our horizon is not a good thing.

[JWB]

Police offered teen McDonald's in exchange for confession to crime someone else committed:

https://abc7chicago.com/waukegan-il-police-department-wrongfully-accused-shooting/11587147/

[MiloMorai]

Anyone see the cops breaking up the mall fight between 2 teenagers. Female cop crabs the white guy and puts him in a chair. The male cop throws the dark skinned kid to the floor and attempts to cuff him.

Lots of complaints of racial profiling.

The fight between the Uni basketball coaches, one white, the other of colour, shows why the dark skinned kid was hand cuffed.

[Skywalkre]

22 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Anyone see the cops breaking up the mall fight between 2 teenagers. Female cop crabs the white guy and puts him in a chair. The male cop throws the dark skinned kid to the floor and attempts to cuff him.

Lots of complaints of racial profiling.

Hadn't heard of it.  Just watched it.  Yeah... it's fucked up... but also par the course.  Perfect example of why the protests happened back in '20.

[DB]

The video I saw starts with the "white" guy on top and the police apparently just reaching the scene. He's pulled off and pushed back into the seating. He's immediately calm, and follows orders to stay put. The other guy is kicking and flailing and not calming down.

I want to see the previous few minutes to see how it kicked off. It's also impossible for me to tell from the potato cam compressed imagery whether the guy on top was beating the snot out of the other one, or whether he was just holding him down.

Not that what actually happened matters - it's what people are claiming happened that causes the riots, whether it's true or not.

[rmgill]

If cops tell you to sit and you fail to do so and they have cause to arrest you for what ever they are there for, you will be put into cuffs. This falls under a comedian's video on how not to get beat down by the cops. 
 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by rmgill

[Skywalkre]

23 hours ago, DB said:

The video I saw starts with the "white" guy on top and the police apparently just reaching the scene. He's pulled off and pushed back into the seating. He's immediately calm, and follows orders to stay put. The other guy is kicking and flailing and not calming down.

Unless you watched a different video that's not at all what I saw.  I couldn't make out from the audio anything the police were saying and the move to pin and handcuff the black guy was instantaneous.

23 hours ago, DB said:

Not that what actually happened matters - it's what people are claiming happened that causes the riots, whether it's true or not.

The protests and riots were not one and the same back in '20.  TN often seems to forget that... and forget that peaceful protests were vastly more numerous than riots.

[DB]

If you're thinking I didn't see the right video, why is it that nobody has actually posted it up?

At the start of the clip I saw, a white looking male is leaning over and obviously has his hands on what turns out to be a black male who is on his back, either on the ground or against some seating. It's a potato-cam video, but I think there's something between the camera and the man lying down, so it isn't immediately clear if either of them is trying to punch or strangle or whatever the other.

The cops enter stage left and pull the white guy off the black guy. The female officer pushes him away and he sits in the mall seating. To me it seems she points at him, seated and I infer she's telling him to stay put. He starts to gesture as if he's going to start trying to justify what's been going on, but she turns and assists the other officer, who is not having much luck stopping the other guy from acting like there is still a fight to be won.

At this point, he gets cuffed.

On a scale of 0 to bullet in the head, this looks like a complete nothingburger of a fight broken up by police with the one who wouldn't or couldn't calm the fuck down getting cuffed.

Now, the thing that should happen next is that the police should find out what started this and then decide who gets to see the court, not just haul off the one for whom the red mist had descended, but this outrage story isn't about that, it's about who got handcuffed, and to me, well, it's pretty clear why it happened that way.

Now I guess you'll tell me I'm looking at the wrong video, but if you're going to support a claim that something untoward happened, try pointing me at the evidence, I already looked for it and the above is what I found..

[R011]

1 hour ago, DB said:

If you're thinking I didn't see the right video, why is it that nobody has actually posted it up?

At the start of the clip I saw, a white looking male is leaning over and obviously has his hands on what turns out to be a black male who is on his back, either on the ground or against some seating. It's a potato-cam video, but I think there's something between the camera and the man lying down, so it isn't immediately clear if either of them is trying to punch or strangle or whatever the other.

The cops enter stage left and pull the white guy off the black guy. The female officer pushes him away and he sits in the mall seating. To me it seems she points at him, seated and I infer she's telling him to stay put. He starts to gesture as if he's going to start trying to justify what's been going on, but she turns and assists the other officer, who is not having much luck stopping the other guy from acting like there is still a fight to be won.

At this point, he gets cuffed.

On a scale of 0 to bullet in the head, this looks like a complete nothingburger of a fight broken up by police with the one who wouldn't or couldn't calm the fuck down getting cuffed.

Now, the thing that should happen next is that the police should find out what started this and then decide who gets to see the court, not just haul off the one for whom the red mist had descended, but this outrage story isn't about that, it's about who got handcuffed, and to me, well, it's pretty clear why it happened that way.

Now I guess you'll tell me I'm looking at the wrong video, but if you're going to support a claim that something untoward happened, try pointing me at the evidence, I already looked for it and the above is what I found..

https://nypost.com/2022/02/21/boy-in-nj-mall-fight-cops-racist-to-only-handcuff-black-teen/

It looks to me as if the male cop goes directly to restraining the black kid on the ground without any pause.

 

[DB]

So, the clip I saw starts at about 0:28 compared to that clip and had obviously been over-compressed. I stand by my assessment of the behaviour of the white guy, but it does look as if the male officer is far more aggressive to the black guy than the female officer was to the white one, but then the white guy becomes compliant immediately.

The black guy doesn't, on further review, seem to get much chance to become compliant, so I can see where people are coming from, but there's nowhere near enough there to insist that it's "because he is black". A male officer might have been more aggressive to the white guy, too - I think a female officer is more likely to pause before brawling and so the white guy gets a momentary chance to not take a beating, the other guy doesn't. Sucks to be him, but as it looks to me like he started it, those are the breaks.

This whole thing looks like a pair of angry teenagers letting their hormones get out of hand, but I realise that my ability to judge the ages of millennials and younger is long gone, so they might instead be a pair of idiot, immature 20-somethings.

[MiloMorai]

DB, they are very young teenagers, 13-14yo.

My nephew is a cop and says "whites" are usually compliant all the time. With a "black" they can be compliant one moment and the next thing you know, they are going berserker.

[rmgill]

https://tennesseelookout.com/2022/03/23/judges-strike-down-tennessee-law-allowing-warrantless-searches-by-state-wildlife-officials/#:~:text=The longstanding practice of conducting,County Circuit Court ruled Tuesday.
 

That's turned out more reasonable. In Tennessee, state game agents don't have powers to trespass on private land with impunity. 

[Skywalkre]

We didn't talk about this case here on TN.  Another seemingly inexcusable use of force by police.  Shockingly... he actually got charged.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/09/us/patrick-lyoya-grand-rapids-shooting-charging-decision.html

Quote

Michigan Police Officer Charged With Murder After Killing Black Motorist

Patrick Lyoya was fatally shot by a white Grand Rapids officer during a traffic stop, renewing a national debate about police conduct and use of force.

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. — The video shocked residents: A police officer wrestling on the ground with a Black man who had fled from a traffic stop, then pulling out a gun and firing a single round into the back of the man’s head, killing him.

Over the course of two months, since that April 4 killing of Patrick Lyoya in Grand Rapids, Mich., protesters had marched through downtown, interrupted City Commission meetings and demanded that the officer who fired the fatal shot, Christopher Schurr, face criminal charges.

On Thursday, Christopher Becker, the Kent County prosecuting attorney, charged Officer Schurr, who is white, with second-degree murder.

...

It remains relatively rare for American police officers to face charges for on-duty killings, though such cases have become more common in recent years amid public outcry over police conduct and the proliferation of cameras that can either confirm or conflict with an officer’s account. Even when charges are filed, cases can be hard to prove in court. Officers are given a wide berth to use force under the law, and jurors have been known to be sympathetic when police officers assert that they feared for their life.

That last bit is key.  Less rare for the cop to be charged these days but a conviction is still difficult no matter how blatant the misuse of force/improper conduct was.

The norm is sadly more like this.  Anyone remember that AZ cop that shot the guy in a wheelchair 9 times?  I was reminded of that case when hearing of the above charges and went looking to see what's become of it.  As far as I can tell the cop is still fired (who knows if he's been hired somewhere else already) but as of 17Mar22 still no charges filed against him.  Give me a fucking break...

[Tim the Tank Nut]

the title of this thread absolutely covers the school shooting Texas...

[BansheeOne]

BLM protests in a country where revolutionaries were once famously said to buy platform tickets before seizing railway stations:

Quote

Date 10.08.2022

Germany: Protesters rally after police killing of Black youth

Scores of demonstrators have protested against police violence after a 16-year-old Black youth was fatally shot. Police and witnesses say he had a knife. The victim was said to have been potentially suicidal.

Up to 200 mostly young demonstrators held a rally in the western German city of Dortmund on Tuesday to protest against police violence after a 16-year-old Black youth died of wounds inflicted by an officer's submachine gun.

Police said the protest, which had been officially registered, was peaceful.

Charges were, however, filed against participants in a later unregistered demonstration in front of a police station in the city. 

The young man, said by state prosecutors to have be an unaccompanied refugee minor from Senegal, was shot after police attended a call for assistance by a youth welfare facility. A staff member at the facility made the emergency call, saying she had seen the youth with a knife.

Eleven policemen arrived at the scene. According to the initial police account, officers first used stun guns and tear gas to try to disarm the youth as he attacked, before one 29-year-old officer fired shots. The youth was hit five times and six shell cases were found, suggesting one round missed.

The youth later died of his injuries in hospital after an emergency operation.

Investigation underway

The police officer who fired the shots is currently under investigation as is usual in such cases, said state prosecutor Carsten Dombert, who is in charge of the probe. He said the investigation would take several weeks

He said the youth was believed to have possibly been suicidal and had received psychiatric treatment in the past. It was still unclear what he intended to do with the knife, Dombert said.

The investigation has been put in the hands of the police force in the nearby city of Recklinghausen for reasons of neutrality, with Dortmund's police not permitted to investigate their colleagues for wrongdoing.

Police shootings are rare in Germany compared with many other countries, particularly the US. One representative study showed that in 2020, German police used firearms 159 times against people, of which 49 were warning shots. Fifteen people died as a result of shots fired by police and 41 were injured.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-protesters-rally-after-police-killing-of-black-youth/a-62766493

[JWB]

Two Ind. officers suspended after arresting man thought to be anti-police.

Two Ind. officers suspended after arresting man thought to be anti-police (msn.com)

[Skywalkre]

Saw this when I was on vacation.  Good to see officers being charged when it's this blatant.  Convictions still aren't a given, though.

Quote

Florida police sergeant seen grabbing officer by the throat is charged with battery and assault

Sgt. Christopher Pullease was accused of "intentionally touching or striking" another officer during an incident last year.

A Florida police sergeant who was seen in body camera video grabbing another officer by her throat last year was charged with battery and assault on a law enforcement officer, officials said Thursday.

Christopher Pullease, 47, was also charged with evidence tampering and assaulting a civilian during the Nov. 19 incident, the Broward State Attorney’s office said in a statement.

Pullease, who was relieved of his supervisory duties in January, was accused of “intentionally touching or striking” the female officer against her will and assaulting her when he held pepper spray to her face, the statement said.

The assault charge against the civilian, who was being arrested on what authorities described as a violent felony when the incident occurred, was prompted by Pullease holding the spray to the man’s face, the prosecutor’s office said.

A probable cause affidavit obtained by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel accused Pullease of trying to “impair” his cellphone for his use in a criminal trial.

In the video, which was muted and blurred by the police department to protect an internal investigation, Pullease can be seen appearing to talk to the suspect, who is handcuffed and in the back of a patrol car.

The female officer can be seen approaching him and grabbing his duty belt in an apparent attempt to pull him away, according to Sunrise Police Chief Anthony Rosa. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-police-sergeant-seen-grabbing-officer-throat-charged-battery-a-rcna39496

And... everyone remember that Tucson officer who shot the guy in a wheelchair multiple times and killed him?  Still nothing from the DA over eight months after the incident...

[JWB]

Black residents of a small Mississippi town have filed a lawsuit seeking protection from their police department.

The lawsuit, obtained by Newsweek, comes after Lexington's police chief was fired last month after he was heard allegedly using racist and homophobic slurs in a leaked audio recording.

In the recording, first reported by the Mississippi Center for Investigative Reporting, Sam Dobbins, who is white, also allegedly bragged about killing 13 people in the line of duty and used the n-word repeatedly, including to describe someone he says he shot 119 times.

https://www.newsweek.com/black-residents-sue-police-department-mississippi-martial-law-1734061

[JWB]

FBI Misled Judge in Obtaining Warrant To Seize Hundreds of Safe Deposit Boxes.

New court documents show that the FBI planned for months to seize and forfeit property found inside safe deposit boxes in an L.A. raid under the pretext of doing an inventory.

https://reason.com/2022/08/19/fbi-misled-judge-in-obtaining-warrant-to-seize-hundreds-of-safe-deposit-boxes/?fbclid=IwAR2kRslPg3ETVecsrQbpgO9XgPYsxjpz0iCuOlPxOTU-q7jN11z1v3w8PPc