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When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible


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It's a training issue for most officers, but not all. There is a minority of individuals that no level of training will ever be enough to reliably influence their behavior. These individuals need to be identified by testing and removed from front line service. The testing would need to identify individuals who gets too hysterical, afraid, or angry, too quickly. Train the 95%, weed out the 5%.

It's a training issue all right, but I think you have it backward. I think the killers are doing exactly what they've been trained to do and their behavior, in the eyes of their trainers and peers, has been suitably modified. The outliers aren't the ones that shoot to kill with little provocation, the outliers are the ones that stupidly have "You're Fucked" etched on to their weapon. Moreover, let's not forget that the Blue Line remained silent while this killer was found not guilty.

Edited by DKTanker
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I think part of the silence, is we don't know what evidence was presented to the jury, and there is a certain reluctance on the part of law enforcement to second guess juries. Having spoken to many juries after a trial, they all focus on something different than I would consider important. Plus there is the extreme lack of media focus on this case, and media hysteria calling attention to it. A lot of guys just want to keep their heads down, and avoid any BLM/SJW arrows coming our way. I think, based only on the video, that the Sgt giving the commands was wrong, and the officer was wrong. Training is important, but also decisions in many cases (not this one) have mere seconds to make a decision. Our last shooting lasted 11 seconds from the time the deputy pulled into the driveway, till it was over and the knife wielding attacker was down. One deputy never got out of his Tahoe before it was over. You hear the family screaming "He's got a knife, watch out!", and then you see the kid charging the deputy with knife raised. We later learned it was "suicide by cop" and the kid had it planned.

 

 

It's a training issue for most officers, but not all. There is a minority of individuals that no level of training will ever be enough to reliably influence their behavior. These individuals need to be identified by testing and removed from front line service. The testing would need to identify individuals who gets too hysterical, afraid, or angry, too quickly. Train the 95%, weed out the 5%.

It's a training issue all right, but I think you have it backward. I think the killers are doing exactly what they've been trained to do and their behavior, in the eyes of their trainers and peers, has been suitably modified. The outliers aren't the ones that shoot to kill with little provocation, the outliers are the ones that stupidly have "You're Fucked" etched on to their weapon. Moreover, let's not forget that the Blue Line remained silent while this killer was found not guilty.

 

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I think part of the silence, is we don't know what evidence was presented to the jury, and there is a certain reluctance on the part of law enforcement to second guess juries. Having spoken to many juries after a trial, they all focus on something different than I would consider important. Plus there is the extreme lack of media focus on this case, and media hysteria calling attention to it. A lot of guys just want to keep their heads down, and avoid any BLM/SJW arrows coming our way. I think, based only on the video, that the Sgt giving the commands was wrong, and the officer was wrong. Training is important, but also decisions in many cases (not this one) have mere seconds to make a decision. Our last shooting lasted 11 seconds from the time the deputy pulled into the driveway, till it was over and the knife wielding attacker was down. One deputy never got out of his Tahoe before it was over. You hear the family screaming "He's got a knife, watch out!", and then you see the kid charging the deputy with knife raised. We later learned it was "suicide by cop" and the kid had it planned.

 

 

It would be nice if there were realistic non lethal alternatives n cases like that. Phasers with stun settings are a bit thin on the ground in this century, though.

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I think the cops were concerned there were additional perps in the room. Hence their reluctance to expose them selves in the hallway and cuffing Shaver. Thats why they wanted Shaver to crawl towards them. And after they shot him went directly to clear the room.

 

It was a case of preconceived threat. Once the report of GUN was made it became the onus of the suspect to PROVE he wasnt a lethal threat. An almost impossible task.

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Scared fags being faggoty.

 

I've had fewer dudes(albeit with 1000% more testosterone)t and we arrested a ING battalion Sgt Major and his entire family who we knew had PKM's, RPG's, class 4 hard armor(because he was stealing it all) and we didn't do any of this cowardly shit, and we didn't shoot any of them.

 

I can't comprehend this level of quivering cowardice. If you're so fucking scared of dying, go hang drywall or something for a living. S/F....Ken M

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“Whether or not he was a police officer, a correctional officer, he was still wearing a uniform that represents him as law enforcement.... He could have handled the situation a lot differently.”

Indeed. He should have made sure nobody was recording the incident. I have not one doubt in my head that he was otherwise doing as he was trained to do and had observed others doing.

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I can't comprehend this level of quivering cowardice. If you're so fucking scared of dying, go hang drywall or something for a living. S/F....Ken M

+1

 

Its not like police can go AWOL. If the job and its responsibilities don't work for you, turn in your badge and find a new line of work.

 

I suspect any soldier at a checkpoint in Iraq is held to a higher standard that this, and they don't get to just quit the next morning if they find the job stressful.

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+1 as well. I’m not anti-cop in the slightest, but I think that certain police departments have this toxic belief that they’re paramilitary where the dangers they face don’t really back that up (not going to draw up the stats right now, but there are a lot of career fields that are more dangerous than being a police officer).

 

Where I live (uh, a major city directly across the bay from SF), one major problem in terms of the crime rate is that 1) police officers here make crazy money (something like $80k to start, plus overtime and pensions) 2) the city isn’t all that rich despite the recent dot-com tax infusion, so 3) there are far too few cops for a city of 400,000 people, which results in a lot of crimes being basically ignored by the police department. Although the counter-argument is that you have to make crazy money to afford to live here, so maybe it’s more of a housing crisis thing.

 

Back when I was in NYC (I’m talking out my ass so somebody correct me if I’m wrong) police officers made pretty crappy starting salaries, but it was counterbalanced by those salaries rising up pretty fast, plus most people in NYC actually like cops ok, which means those 23-year old rookie cops are getting constantly laid. :)

 

Edit -- yeah, NYC is slightly more expensive than the city I live in and starting salary is mid-40s. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page

 

Edit Mark 2 -- I should have also added that police officers in rural areas often make sh*t and have to deal with stuff that's just as sketchy and complicated as police officers in big cities have to deal with.

Edited by Brian Kennedy
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Ottawa police

For sworn officers, once you have signed an offer of employment, you will begin to receive a salary of $55,124.99. You will then receive yearly increments based on performance reviews for the first three years until you reach 1st class constable salary level of $96,711.35.

 

https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/careers-and-opportunities/Salary-and-Benefits.asp

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Ottawa police

For sworn officers, once you have signed an offer of employment, you will begin to receive a salary of $55,124.99. You will then receive yearly increments based on performance reviews for the first three years until you reach 1st class constable salary level of $96,711.35.

 

https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/careers-and-opportunities/Salary-and-Benefits.asp

Ottawa is a pretty nice city and not incredibly expensive, no? It aint like Montreal where they have to deal with the meth dealing Francophone biker gangs..

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For comparison here are the Vancouver Police Department salary and benefits. Keep in mind that you literally cannot buy a house (single family dwelling) in the City of Vancouver for less than $1,000,000.00

 

Annual Salaries

Effective 2018:

  • Probationary Constable – $70,154
  • 4th Class Constable (after 1 year) – $75,165
  • 3rd Class Constable (after 2 years) – $80,176
  • 2nd Class Constable (after 3 years) –$90,198
  • 1st Class Constable (after 4 years) – $100,220

Benefits

  • two weeks paid holidays to start, three weeks starting second year, four weeks starting 8th year
  • medical and dental benefits package
  • membership in the BC Municipal Pension Plan
  • all uniforms and equipment provided
  • uniform and plainclothes drycleaning provided

.

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I have treated patients who were in Police Custody. Up until now I took the injuries at face value. I ran a patient who had injuries that are consistent with this video. I'm not saying my patient had been abused by police as this one was, but I am disturbed that I can't definitively state that none of my patients were.

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Prosecutor: Not enough evidence yet to charge Minneapolis cop in Justine Damond shooting

Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said he doesn’t yet have enough evidence to charge a Minneapolis police officer who killed an unarmed Australian woman this summer, blaming investigators who “haven’t done their job.”
Freeman is still deciding whether to charge officer Mohamed Noor, who shot Justine Ruszczyk Damond in the alley behind her home in July. Damond had called 911 to report a possible sexual assault. As she approached the squad car, Noor fired from the passenger seat, across his partner and through the driver’s window.
Damond’s death in Southwest Minneapolis’ Fulton neighborhood sparked protests and led to a police department shake-up, including the resignation of Chief Janee Harteau.Freeman was captured on video expressing his frustration at a Minneapolis Regional Labor Federation holiday reception Wednesday night, after he was asked about a charging decision. Union member Sam Sanchez recorded the conversation and posted it on Facebook. It wasn’t clear if Freeman knew he was being recorded.
In the video, Freeman said he doesn’t have enough evidence yet to decide whether to charge Noor, who has declined to speak with investigators.
“I’ve got to have the evidence. And I don’t have it yet. And let me just say, it’s not my fault,” Freeman said. “So if it isn’t my fault, who didn’t do their jobs? Investigators, and they don’t work for me. And they haven’t done their job.”Freeman didn’t name the investigators or their agency, but the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is leading the investigation. The BCA turned the case over to Freeman in September. The bureau issued a statement Thursday saying it continues to work with Freeman’s office.
“The BCA conducts the majority of officer-involved shooting investigations in Minnesota, and the collaboration between prosecutors and investigators as a case file is reviewed under the statutes is a typical part of the review process,” the BCA statement said. “State law prohibits us from providing additional details, because it is an active investigation.”
Freeman had previously said he expected to make a charging decision by the end of the year. His office acknowledged the video Thursday and did not dispute its authenticity.
“We are working diligently on the case to complete the investigation as soon as possible,” the statement said. “Beyond that, we cannot comment at this time.”
Freeman indicated that Noor’s refusal to speak had put prosecutors in a difficult position.
“I have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, (that) the moment he shot the gun, he feared for his life. And he used force because he thought he was gonna be killed,” Freeman said. “But I can’t. He won’t answer my questions because he doesn’t have to, OK? We all have Fifth Amendment rights, and I respect that. So I can’t talk to her because she’s gone, and the other cop just gave us some (expletive), OK? So guess what? I gotta figure out angles of the shot, gun residues, reckless-use-of-force experts.”
Freeman didn’t immediately respond to a request from the Associated Press for an interview. In an email to the Star Tribune, Freeman declined to respond to questions about how investigators have failed to do their job.“Good questions and I respect you asking them,” Freeman wrote in the email. “We are working very hard to complete our review of the facts provided in the investigation to date and to assist in helping to complete the investigation.”
Sanchez is also an organizer with the Twin Cities Coalition for Justice 4 Jamar, which was formed after the fatal shooting of Jamar Clark by a Minneapolis police officer in 2015. Freeman decided not to charge the officers involved in that case.
Sanchez told Minnesota Public Radio that he was surprised by Freeman’s honesty but disheartened that he hasn’t yet made a decision.
Minneapolis attorney Bob Bennett, who represents Damond’s relatives in Australia, told MPR he was concerned but not surprised by Freeman’s comments
“I hope that the BCA hasn’t so irretrievably damaged the evidence, or failed to recover evidence that should be reasonably expected to be recovered at the time that the crime occurred,” Bennett said. “And I use the term ‘crime’ pointedly and intentionally.”
Noor’s attorney, Thomas Plunkett, told MPR that he was concerned by Freeman’s remark that having enough evidence to make a charging decision would be “the big present I’d like to see under the Christmas tree.” He also said the job of investigators is to gather evidence, not create it.
“No lawyer wants their client placed under a Christmas tree as a present to a vocal segment of the community. That said, this case is about an officer that follows procedure and training,” Plunkett said. “This led to the death of a very fine person, which is a horrible tragedy, but not a crime.”

 

 

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Scared fags being faggoty.

 

I've had fewer dudes(albeit with 1000% more testosterone)t and we arrested a ING battalion Sgt Major and his entire family who we knew had PKM's, RPG's, class 4 hard armor(because he was stealing it all) and we didn't do any of this cowardly shit, and we didn't shoot any of them.

 

I can't comprehend this level of quivering cowardice. If you're so fucking scared of dying, go hang drywall or something for a living. S/F....Ken M

You should be President dude, as long as you allow Venezuelans in.

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Prosecutor: Not enough evidence yet to charge Minneapolis cop in Justine Damond shooting
Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said he doesn’t yet have enough evidence to charge a Minneapolis police officer who killed an unarmed Australian woman this summer, blaming investigators who “haven’t done their job.”
Freeman is still deciding whether to charge officer Mohamed Noor, who shot Justine Ruszczyk Damond in the alley behind her home in July. Damond had called 911 to report a possible sexual assault. As she approached the squad car, Noor fired from the passenger seat, across his partner and through the driver’s window.
Damond’s death in Southwest Minneapolis’ Fulton neighborhood sparked protests and led to a police department shake-up, including the resignation of Chief Janee Harteau.Freeman was captured on video expressing his frustration at a Minneapolis Regional Labor Federation holiday reception Wednesday night, after he was asked about a charging decision. Union member Sam Sanchez recorded the conversation and posted it on Facebook. It wasn’t clear if Freeman knew he was being recorded.
In the video, Freeman said he doesn’t have enough evidence yet to decide whether to charge Noor, who has declined to speak with investigators.
“I’ve got to have the evidence. And I don’t have it yet. And let me just say, it’s not my fault,” Freeman said. “So if it isn’t my fault, who didn’t do their jobs? Investigators, and they don’t work for me. And they haven’t done their job.”Freeman didn’t name the investigators or their agency, but the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is leading the investigation. The BCA turned the case over to Freeman in September. The bureau issued a statement Thursday saying it continues to work with Freeman’s office.
“The BCA conducts the majority of officer-involved shooting investigations in Minnesota, and the collaboration between prosecutors and investigators as a case file is reviewed under the statutes is a typical part of the review process,” the BCA statement said. “State law prohibits us from providing additional details, because it is an active investigation.”
Freeman had previously said he expected to make a charging decision by the end of the year. His office acknowledged the video Thursday and did not dispute its authenticity.
“We are working diligently on the case to complete the investigation as soon as possible,” the statement said. “Beyond that, we cannot comment at this time.”
Freeman indicated that Noor’s refusal to speak had put prosecutors in a difficult position.
“I have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, (that) the moment he shot the gun, he feared for his life. And he used force because he thought he was gonna be killed,” Freeman said. “But I can’t. He won’t answer my questions because he doesn’t have to, OK? We all have Fifth Amendment rights, and I respect that. So I can’t talk to her because she’s gone, and the other cop just gave us some (expletive), OK? So guess what? I gotta figure out angles of the shot, gun residues, reckless-use-of-force experts.”
Freeman didn’t immediately respond to a request from the Associated Press for an interview. In an email to the Star Tribune, Freeman declined to respond to questions about how investigators have failed to do their job.“Good questions and I respect you asking them,” Freeman wrote in the email. “We are working very hard to complete our review of the facts provided in the investigation to date and to assist in helping to complete the investigation.”
Sanchez is also an organizer with the Twin Cities Coalition for Justice 4 Jamar, which was formed after the fatal shooting of Jamar Clark by a Minneapolis police officer in 2015. Freeman decided not to charge the officers involved in that case.
Sanchez told Minnesota Public Radio that he was surprised by Freeman’s honesty but disheartened that he hasn’t yet made a decision.
Minneapolis attorney Bob Bennett, who represents Damond’s relatives in Australia, told MPR he was concerned but not surprised by Freeman’s comments
“I hope that the BCA hasn’t so irretrievably damaged the evidence, or failed to recover evidence that should be reasonably expected to be recovered at the time that the crime occurred,” Bennett said. “And I use the term ‘crime’ pointedly and intentionally.”
Noor’s attorney, Thomas Plunkett, told MPR that he was concerned by Freeman’s remark that having enough evidence to make a charging decision would be “the big present I’d like to see under the Christmas tree.” He also said the job of investigators is to gather evidence, not create it.
“No lawyer wants their client placed under a Christmas tree as a present to a vocal segment of the community. That said, this case is about an officer that follows procedure and training,” Plunkett said. “This led to the death of a very fine person, which is a horrible tragedy, but not a crime.”

 

 

 

Translation: Not enough time has passed that permits us to quietly drop the case....

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I do have a story to tell. My Grandfather was sent by Perez-Jimenez to study oncology in order to stablish it in Venezuela. He was stopped by a State Trooper in NH, so he tried to bribe him with 100 dollars, he ended up face first on the police car. Its hard to tell gringos how much I admire the LEOs in the USA, one of the reasons is individual integrity.

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