When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[Murph]

Yes, it does.

[Stargrunt6]

I don't dislike cops and I really can't stand people that do.

But the sorta-cops can be so insufferable.

Exhibit A

 

 

[JWB]

https://x.com/MailOnline/status/1888997307678408902

Moment California cops TASER a man having a seizure after crashing his car.

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, JWB said:

https://x.com/MailOnline/status/1888997307678408902

Moment California cops TASER a man having a seizure after crashing his car.

 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/east-bay/hercules-man-beaten-by-police-sues-department/3787160/

 

Quote

"He was tased three times, not only that, he was punched in the face twice by the admission of one of the officers who did it," Fiol said. "He was pulled by the hair, pulled by the limbs, cursed at, yelled out, shoved, poked, grabbed just about everything. You can imagine their effort to get him out of that car."

I think 10 years in max security state prison ought to give those first responders time to contemplate.

[NickM]

Just now, Ivanhoe said:

 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/east-bay/hercules-man-beaten-by-police-sues-department/3787160/

 

I think 10 years in max security state prison ought to give those first responders time to contemplate.

Meh...SF East Bay Peelers. Why am I not surprised, especially after the last few years of incompetent DEI governance

[JWB]

https://x.com/MailOnline/status/1894768891361931463

Sickening moment SWAT team raided innocent family's home - then tried to cover up their mistake.

[Tim Sielbeck]

 

[rmgill]

But California is sensitive! 

[Ivanhoe]

ATF has got to go.

 

[PaulFormerlyinSaudi]

On 1/28/2025 at 3:28 PM, Murph said:

Notice where that is, New London, run by Democraps.  

All American cities are run by Democrats. You do not have a problem with cities run by Democrats. You have a problem with all cities. Now, would you like to explore that with us? 

[PaulFormerlyinSaudi]

15 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

ATF has got to go.

 

If the ATF is done away with, gun laws would be handled by the real police, the FBI. Do you really want that? 

[rmgill]

30 minutes ago, PaulFormerlyinSaudi said:

All American cities are run by Democrats. You do not have a problem with cities run by Democrats. You have a problem with all cities. Now, would you like to explore that with us? 

Dallas, Fort Worth and Miami seem to be run ok. Republican mayors. 

No, I DO have a problem with how democrats run cities. 

I think we need to explore your ability to logic. 

 

[rmgill]

30 minutes ago, PaulFormerlyinSaudi said:

If the ATF is done away with, gun laws would be handled by the real police, the FBI. Do you really want that? 

It would be state and local laws. The ATF would not be violating the APA and executing warrants based on silly logic and failed legal policy. 

I'm serious, anyone with a sense of justice should have an issue with the APA violations. 

[Stargrunt6]

59 minutes ago, PaulFormerlyinSaudi said:

All American cities are run by Democrats. You do not have a problem with cities run by Democrats. You have a problem with all cities. Now, would you like to explore that with us? 

57 minutes ago, PaulFormerlyinSaudi said:

If the ATF is done away with, gun laws would be handled by the real police, the FBI. Do you really want that? 

[rmgill]

To expand and make the point doubly driven..

The ATF promulgates regulations on firearms that are over and above the code written by the US Congress. Those regulations are convoluted, contradictory, sometimes hidden and as I noted violate the APA. The ESSENCE of the APA is the constitutional right of due process notification and clarity of laws. The ATF specifically violates the APA in doing so violates the bill of rights outside of the 2nd amendment. 

Bump Stocks, what is and is not a receiver, what is and is not a shoulder stock or brace, what is and is not a legal trigger system, what is and is not anything else, is something that the ATF plays with so they can get "gotcha" convictions and seizures. 

If the ATF was disbanded, that regulatory function would need to be regenerated with people hopefully appraised with how things work for the industry and with rights. 

Having myself dealt with directly the FMCSA, they seem to be FAR more in tune with the industry they regulate AND the limits of the US Constitution. 

Edited March 3 by rmgill

[PaulFormerlyinSaudi]

So we have moved on from "disband the ATF" to "all gun laws are unconstitutional."  Where else will you move the goalposts? 

[PaulFormerlyinSaudi]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Dallas, Fort Worth and Miami seem to be run ok. Republican mayors. 

Tell me about their city councils. 

[Ivanhoe]

I am reminded of that one-hit-wonder song from the 1980s, The Future's So Glowie I Gotta Wear Shades.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, PaulFormerlyinSaudi said:

So we have moved on from "disband the ATF" to "all gun laws are unconstitutional."  Where else will you move the goalposts? 

…The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. 
 

Explain the constitutionality of the NFA registry closure please. 
 

You you accept a $5000 tax on all abortions? Would you accept a $300 tax on all printed media? Would you accept a prohibition on all abortions because a tax must be paid but the federal treasury will not allow you to pay said tax but will come and shoot your wife because you did not pay it? 
 

If none of those aspects are ones you can defend, try defending a federal gun law of your choice vis a vis the 2nd amendment. 

Edited March 3 by rmgill

[PaulFormerlyinSaudi]

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

…The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. 

Focus, focus. We were talking about the silly idea of disbanding the ATF. Try to say something about that. I know you can do it. 

[rmgill]

56 minutes ago, PaulFormerlyinSaudi said:

Focus, focus. We were talking about the silly idea of disbanding the ATF. Try to say something about that. I know you can do it. 

I am. Are you?

What do you do with an agency that makes up rules, then countermands them and makes millions of people felons by doing so? Is that the model of constitutionality you think it is? 

Given the agency seems to have a custom of agents lying under oath on the stand, violating federal law and running entrapments schemes on people who were not criminals in the first place, why is disbanding the ATF Silly? 


Here's an example:

The ATF specifically writes a regulation that says X (in this case X is arm braces) is legal. 

The the ATF rescinds that order after 10 years and says that Arm Braces are NOT legal and that all weapons with them attached are after a certain date, contraband. (Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces’”—in January of 2023)

A federal judge threw that out entirely. 

 

For close to a decade, the ATF concluded that “attaching the brace to a firearm does not alter the classification of the firearm or subject the firearm to NFA control.” The ATF changed course on this position for the first time in 2023, when it issued the Final Rule reversing the agency’s otherwise long-standing policy. “When an agency changes course, as [the ATF] did here, it must ‘be cognizant that longstanding policies may have engendered serious reliance interests that must be taken into account.’” Dep’t of Homeland Sec. v. Regents of the Univ. of Cal., 591 U.S. 1, 30 (2020) (quoting Encino Motorcars, LLC v. Navarro, 579 U. S. 211, 222 (2016)). “It would be arbitrary and capricious to ignore such matters” Id. But this is exactly what Defendants did when they inexplicably and fundamentally switched their position on stabilizing braces without providing sufficient explanations and notice. 

Under the Final Rule, the ATF estimated about 99% of pistols with stabilizing braces would be reclassified as NFA rifles. The ATF contemporaneously issued approximately sixty adjudications pursuant to the Final Rule that reclassified different configurations of firearms with stabilizing braces as NFA rifles. The ATF provided no explanations for how the agency came to these classifications and there is no “meaningful clarity about what constitutes an impermissible stabilizing brace.” Mock, 75 F.4th at 585 (5th Cir. 2023). In fact, the Fifth Circuit “[could not] find a single given example of a pistol with a stabilizing brace that would constitute an NFA exempt braced pistol.” Id. at 575. Such “‘unexplained’ and ‘inconsistent’ positions” are arbitrary and capricious. R.J. Reynolds Vapor Co. v. FDA, 65 F.4th 182, 191 (5th Cir. 2023) (quoting Encino Motorcars, 579 U.S. at 222).

The Defendants’ disregard for the principles of fair notice and consideration of reliance interests is further exacerbated by its failure to follow the APA’s procedural requirements for public notice and comment. As discussed above, Defendants failed to follow proper notice-and comment procedures because the Proposed Rule and the Final Rule differed in immense ways.

Edited March 3 by rmgill

[R011]

8 hours ago, PaulFormerlyinSaudi said:

If the ATF is done away with, gun laws would be handled by the real police, the FBI. Do you really want that? 

What's wrong with that?  They might actually look for criminal gun dealers rather than concentrating on whether legitimate ones have their paperwork in order.

[Mr King]

 

[Stargrunt6]

2 hours ago, R011 said:

What's wrong with that?  They might actually look for criminal gun dealers rather than concentrating on whether legitimate ones have their paperwork in order.

Yup.

As opposed to harassing a fun store owner for closing his store for an hour to being his wife to her doctor's appointment. 

True story, actually. That happened to my first CCW instructor, a retired LEO and expert witness in my state.

@PaulFormerlyinSaudi your attempt at using edgy condescension is both obtuse and cringey. It reveals what many pro small government types like myself believe how federal government workers think of American citizens: pure contempt. 

 

[R011]

DOGE might consider whether consolidating the plethora of Federal law enforcement agencies might be a good idea.  BATFE, FBI, DEA, USSS, Dept of Education SWAT . . .