When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[Skywalkre]

13 hours ago, rmgill said:

And you want to accrete MORE power to federal agents whom are impossible to fire? 
 

Please, given the thread, explain Lon Horiuchi’s continued employment after he shot a woman holding a baby. 

You're letting the fantasy conversations in your head leak out into the real world.  Feel free to explain wtf you're talking about here...

[Murph]

The FBI Ruby Ridge murder where FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi murdered Vicky Weaver in cold blood, and was not sent to prison.  

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

You're letting the fantasy conversations in your head leak out into the real world.  Feel free to explain wtf you're talking about here...

Lon Horiuchi was a US Federal Agent who shot a woman holding a baby at the Ruby Ridge Fiasco. In the end, the only charges they could make stick to the widower of the woman shot and killed was a failure to appear case. 

So, given this is the when defending cops become impossible, explain like I asked, how Lon Horiuchi didn't end up on charges for shooting and killing Vicki Weaver. 

Do police have the legal authority to shoot someone at range who's not immediately jeopardizing someone with any sort of weapon? Ie can the perform an execution at range in cold blood absent any sort of flight or imminent harm to someone else or themselves? 

I'm testing your ability to discern good and bad shoots. Even when they're done federally. So, please, explain the reasons why Horiuchi was not charged with some sort of manslaughter. 

Some background with details on the legal aspects. 
https://seoklaw.com/the-incident-at-ruby-ridge/

Edited July 26 by rmgill

[rmgill]

I'll note that the DOJ has had a discovery issue since at least the Ruby Ridge incident. Such violations of basic principles of legal due process are direct to what I mean by accreting more power to federal agents whom are impossible to fire. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well I guess that clears that up, the Dibble were justified, mostly.

 

[Mr King]

23 hours ago, Murph said:

The FBI Ruby Ridge murder where FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi murdered Vicky Weaver in cold blood, and was not sent to prison.  

He then went on to pose in front of the smoldering remains of the victims of fed arson in waco.

 

Edited July 27 by Mr King

[Murph]

When I was working, I got to speak with a couple of Texas Rangers who were there, and they told me they were told to shut up and never, ever speak about what they saw the FBI doing at Waco or else.  

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well I guess that clears that up, the Dibble were justified, mostly.

 

All officers will now be investigated? For abusing migrant's fists with their faces? 

[Stuart Galbraith]

If It was me (and regretably im not DPS) Id say 'Well you can press charges against this copper, but you will now be facing multiple charges of assaulting police officers, for which you will be spending some months at his majesty's pleasure. Your call.'

Yes, I think the kick in the head at the end could still be judged excessive force. But I for one am giving him  full credit of being under a sustained assault, probably somewhat dazed, and having his two friends have the shit knocked out of them. In fact, considering what he went through, Im amazed he didnt pull his gun and cap the fool. Im very glad he didnt, but we have seen footage where policemen in similar situations have done just that.

Send him on a training scheme, tell him to go forth and sin no more, and let him back on the job. He got far more right than wrong here.

[Rick]

On 7/26/2024 at 4:54 PM, Murph said:

The FBI Ruby Ridge murder where FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi murdered Vicky Weaver in cold blood, and was not sent to prison.  

On a lower level there was the Philadelphia M.O.V.E. bombing by state police in the 1980's. 

[EchoFiveMike]

20 hours ago, Murph said:

When I was working, I got to speak with a couple of Texas Rangers who were there, and they told me they were told to shut up and never, ever speak about what they saw the FBI doing at Waco or else.  

So they were faced with the challenge of Evil...what did they do?  S/F....Ken M

[Murph]

24 minutes ago, EchoFiveMike said:

So they were faced with the challenge of Evil...what did they do?  S/F....Ken M

They shut up.  They did not like it, but they shut up.  

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, Rick said:

On a lower level there was the Philadelphia M.O.V.E. bombing by state police in the 1980's. 

Wait, you mean police dropping incendiary devices on a block of town homes and burning the entire block to the ground is not a good way to make friends with the neighborhood?

Who knew? 

[Skywalkre]

On 7/26/2024 at 1:56 PM, rmgill said:

Lon Horiuchi was a US Federal Agent who shot a woman holding a baby at the Ruby Ridge Fiasco. In the end, the only charges they could make stick to the widower of the woman shot and killed was a failure to appear case. 

So, given this is the when defending cops become impossible, explain like I asked, how Lon Horiuchi didn't end up on charges for shooting and killing Vicki Weaver. 

Do police have the legal authority to shoot someone at range who's not immediately jeopardizing someone with any sort of weapon? Ie can the perform an execution at range in cold blood absent any sort of flight or imminent harm to someone else or themselves? 

I'm testing your ability to discern good and bad shoots. Even when they're done federally. So, please, explain the reasons why Horiuchi was not charged with some sort of manslaughter. 

Some background with details on the legal aspects. 
https://seoklaw.com/the-incident-at-ruby-ridge/

Ok... I've been complaining on here for years that police can get away with murder and somehow a bad shoot, that happened before I was even a teenager, is relevant... how?

And the above still doesn't explain what the fuck you meant when you said this:

On 7/25/2024 at 10:06 PM, rmgill said:

And you want to accrete MORE power to federal agents whom are impossible to fire?

I think my point is pretty clear - police, whoever they are, shouldn't be sheltered from prosecution and it should be easier to fire them before we get bad incidents like all the ones (and more, we're just scratching the surface here) highlighted in this thread.

And speaking of this, I can't wait to see you bend over backwards to defend Trump's statements about police.  At a rally up in MN he said police should be 'federally immune' (whatever that means).  He said something similar over a month ago in WI stating he feels police should get immunity from prosecution.

[EchoFiveMike]

5 hours ago, Murph said:

They shut up.  They did not like it, but they shut up.  

So, cowardice won.  This is why America is in the toilet.  S/F....Ken M

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Ok... I've been complaining on here for years that police can get away with murder and somehow a bad shoot, that happened before I was even a teenager, is relevant... how?

I think you complain only where it doesn’t run foul of Democrat/uniparty power grabs. 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

And the above still doesn't explain what the fuck you meant when you said this:

Was Horiuchi fired? He shot and killed an unarmed woman. Was he charged? Where did those charges go?

How much reduction in federal law enforcement powers came from Ruby Ridge and Waco? 

Do  you not dislike  Chevron Doctrine going away? How have you objected to federal censorship? The CDC trying to control rent? The President mandating vaccinations? 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I think my point is pretty clear - police, whoever they are, shouldn't be sheltered from prosecution and it should be easier to fire them before we get bad incidents like all the ones (and more, we're just scratching the surface here) highlighted in this thread.

Who shot The woman on January 6th? 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

And speaking of this, I can't wait to see you bend over backwards to defend Trump's statements about police.  At a rally up in MN he said police should be 'federally immune' (whatever that means). 

Right now federal agents are State immune. Thats why Horichi’s state charges were quashed by the feds. 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

He said something similar over a month ago in WI stating he feels police should get immunity from prosecution.

Citation please? 
 

[Ivanhoe]

Based on the bodycam footage in the above video, I can't see justification for lethal force.

Tatum says that she threw the boiling water, but to me I don't see any sign the boiling water got anywhere near either officer, or got above waist level for that matter.

Red flag #1; she told the officers she was on her meds;

Red flag #2; they had her sitting on the couch, but let her go into the kitchen (a space full of sharps, caustic chemicals, and hot things); 

Red flag #3; with that counter between the woman and the two officers, very minimal threat to the officers;

Red flag #4; when both officers had their pistols drawn, one was dang close to muzzling the other, indicating incompetence.

Red flag #5; the failure of the shooter to consider trauma treatment.

 

[Rick]

Some information on police shootings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDpIlTUJmmY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBpPSVQHSmk
 

[Murph]

I am also in agreement, I watched it several times, and unless there is something that we are NOT seeing, I think that deadly force was not on the table.  Plus the officer who shot her had several red flags to me as a former IA investigator, so unless there is some smoking gun I am not seeing, it was a Bad Shoot all around.  #5 is in and of itself a termination offense in my world.  I wanted to be real careful on my comment, but I agree, bad shoot all around, too many red flags, and I am not sure just why they did not get between her and the stove.  

[rmgill]

Higher res footage is necessary. 

[Skywalkre]

Trump's recent comments about giving police immunity.  The most recent one was just a few days ago and to steal a line from the reddit post where I saw it - "that's a bold move to make less than a week after the shooting in Illinois."

Start around 52:00:

Start around 1:16:30:

[JWB]

 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Trump's recent comments about giving police immunity.  The most recent one was just a few days ago and to steal a line from the reddit post where I saw it - "that's a bold move to make less than a week after the shooting in Illinois."

Sorry. As you said, FFS, it was just a speech, like an op ed. It's not the actual application of executive power. 

 

[Murph]

11 hours ago, rmgill said:

Sorry. As you said, FFS, it was just a speech, like an op ed. It's not the actual application of executive power. 

 

Ignore him.  Also the immunity thing is for "Qualified Immunity", you can still go to jail or get sued if you violate laws, but cannot be sued just to be sued for doing your job.  That is the issue now, cops in many places are so terrified that they will get sued for doing their job as ordered by law that they do nothing.   I got sued in Federal Court once for 2.5 million dollars for doing my job in a legal manner by a professional litigant who made his living suing people.  It was tossed out eventually, but it was horrible while it was going on.  This was back in 2010.  

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, Murph said:

Ignore him.  Also the immunity thing is for "Qualified Immunity", you can still go to jail or get sued if you violate laws, but cannot be sued just to be sued for doing your job. 

What's of greater concern to me is unqualified immunity of prosecutors AND the strange qualified immunity of federal agents who seem to be all but immune from prosecution or culpability at all. See also the numerous instances of ATF shooting dogs or conducting investigations that any state level prosecutor would file charges on in a heart beat. One of the lowest was one out of Chicago where the ATF hired a mentally retarded person to be their sting agent/front person, managed no good sales worth a damn and then ended up charging their own CI for the sales. If that's not entrapment, I don't know what is. 

 

6 hours ago, Murph said:

That is the issue now, cops in many places are so terrified that they will get sued for doing their job as ordered by law that they do nothing.   I got sued in Federal Court once for 2.5 million dollars for doing my job in a legal manner by a professional litigant who made his living suing people.  It was tossed out eventually, but it was horrible while it was going on.  This was back in 2010.  

 This is where I'm doubly upset with the DOJ which has become one of those professional litigants. We're a far cry away from the likes of Ludowici, Georgia (1) running speed traps, clip joints and the like. In many cases as I've noted we have our biggest issues from large departments that have the officers who are treated like beaten dogs. Poorly supervise, aggressive and gun shy at the same time. Atlanta PD is full of this issue. So too is DeKalb County's county level PD. What is lacking is consistent leadership, standards and accountability. 



(1) Oh, by the way, I had a cousin who died under very suspicious circumstances down there. I don't know if it was Tatnall County SO or Long County SO who was the instigator, but it was in the 80s. Oh, I found the § 1983 lawsuit that arose. It was Glenville, PD.  I had searched for it before, but he's a step cousin so I didn't know the Lindy's name. I could just think of my step mother's family name it was her sister's son. 

Here's the §1983 suit. 

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/694/911/1874421/

My recollection from the family was that Lindy was in fact in fear of his life from one of the officers based on past encounters. This drove him to extremes to attempt to escape and that resulted in his death. A factor remarkably like much of what one hears in from some portions of the the US's black population. 

Lacking any significant knowledge of the event's it's hard for me to decide one way or the other on the culpability of the incident that resulted in the death of my cousin.  And the quality of that Section 1983 Lawsuit seems somewhat poor (cf a due process claim out of the 4th and 14th vs the 5th and 14th amendments). 

Edited July 30 by rmgill