When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Ok... I've been complaining on here for years that police can get away with murder and somehow a bad shoot, that happened before I was even a teenager, is relevant... how?

I think you complain only where it doesn’t run foul of Democrat/uniparty power grabs. 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

And the above still doesn't explain what the fuck you meant when you said this:

Was Horiuchi fired? He shot and killed an unarmed woman. Was he charged? Where did those charges go?

How much reduction in federal law enforcement powers came from Ruby Ridge and Waco? 

Do  you not dislike  Chevron Doctrine going away? How have you objected to federal censorship? The CDC trying to control rent? The President mandating vaccinations? 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I think my point is pretty clear - police, whoever they are, shouldn't be sheltered from prosecution and it should be easier to fire them before we get bad incidents like all the ones (and more, we're just scratching the surface here) highlighted in this thread.

Who shot The woman on January 6th? 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

And speaking of this, I can't wait to see you bend over backwards to defend Trump's statements about police.  At a rally up in MN he said police should be 'federally immune' (whatever that means). 

Right now federal agents are State immune. Thats why Horichi’s state charges were quashed by the feds. 

2 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

He said something similar over a month ago in WI stating he feels police should get immunity from prosecution.

Citation please? 
 

[Ivanhoe]

Based on the bodycam footage in the above video, I can't see justification for lethal force.

Tatum says that she threw the boiling water, but to me I don't see any sign the boiling water got anywhere near either officer, or got above waist level for that matter.

Red flag #1; she told the officers she was on her meds;

Red flag #2; they had her sitting on the couch, but let her go into the kitchen (a space full of sharps, caustic chemicals, and hot things); 

Red flag #3; with that counter between the woman and the two officers, very minimal threat to the officers;

Red flag #4; when both officers had their pistols drawn, one was dang close to muzzling the other, indicating incompetence.

Red flag #5; the failure of the shooter to consider trauma treatment.

 

[Rick]

Some information on police shootings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDpIlTUJmmY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBpPSVQHSmk
 

[Murph]

I am also in agreement, I watched it several times, and unless there is something that we are NOT seeing, I think that deadly force was not on the table.  Plus the officer who shot her had several red flags to me as a former IA investigator, so unless there is some smoking gun I am not seeing, it was a Bad Shoot all around.  #5 is in and of itself a termination offense in my world.  I wanted to be real careful on my comment, but I agree, bad shoot all around, too many red flags, and I am not sure just why they did not get between her and the stove.  

[rmgill]

Higher res footage is necessary. 

[Skywalkre]

Trump's recent comments about giving police immunity.  The most recent one was just a few days ago and to steal a line from the reddit post where I saw it - "that's a bold move to make less than a week after the shooting in Illinois."

Start around 52:00:

Start around 1:16:30:

[JWB]

 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Trump's recent comments about giving police immunity.  The most recent one was just a few days ago and to steal a line from the reddit post where I saw it - "that's a bold move to make less than a week after the shooting in Illinois."

Sorry. As you said, FFS, it was just a speech, like an op ed. It's not the actual application of executive power. 

 

[Murph]

11 hours ago, rmgill said:

Sorry. As you said, FFS, it was just a speech, like an op ed. It's not the actual application of executive power. 

 

Ignore him.  Also the immunity thing is for "Qualified Immunity", you can still go to jail or get sued if you violate laws, but cannot be sued just to be sued for doing your job.  That is the issue now, cops in many places are so terrified that they will get sued for doing their job as ordered by law that they do nothing.   I got sued in Federal Court once for 2.5 million dollars for doing my job in a legal manner by a professional litigant who made his living suing people.  It was tossed out eventually, but it was horrible while it was going on.  This was back in 2010.  

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, Murph said:

Ignore him.  Also the immunity thing is for "Qualified Immunity", you can still go to jail or get sued if you violate laws, but cannot be sued just to be sued for doing your job. 

What's of greater concern to me is unqualified immunity of prosecutors AND the strange qualified immunity of federal agents who seem to be all but immune from prosecution or culpability at all. See also the numerous instances of ATF shooting dogs or conducting investigations that any state level prosecutor would file charges on in a heart beat. One of the lowest was one out of Chicago where the ATF hired a mentally retarded person to be their sting agent/front person, managed no good sales worth a damn and then ended up charging their own CI for the sales. If that's not entrapment, I don't know what is. 

 

6 hours ago, Murph said:

That is the issue now, cops in many places are so terrified that they will get sued for doing their job as ordered by law that they do nothing.   I got sued in Federal Court once for 2.5 million dollars for doing my job in a legal manner by a professional litigant who made his living suing people.  It was tossed out eventually, but it was horrible while it was going on.  This was back in 2010.  

 This is where I'm doubly upset with the DOJ which has become one of those professional litigants. We're a far cry away from the likes of Ludowici, Georgia (1) running speed traps, clip joints and the like. In many cases as I've noted we have our biggest issues from large departments that have the officers who are treated like beaten dogs. Poorly supervise, aggressive and gun shy at the same time. Atlanta PD is full of this issue. So too is DeKalb County's county level PD. What is lacking is consistent leadership, standards and accountability. 



(1) Oh, by the way, I had a cousin who died under very suspicious circumstances down there. I don't know if it was Tatnall County SO or Long County SO who was the instigator, but it was in the 80s. Oh, I found the § 1983 lawsuit that arose. It was Glenville, PD.  I had searched for it before, but he's a step cousin so I didn't know the Lindy's name. I could just think of my step mother's family name it was her sister's son. 

Here's the §1983 suit. 

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/694/911/1874421/

My recollection from the family was that Lindy was in fact in fear of his life from one of the officers based on past encounters. This drove him to extremes to attempt to escape and that resulted in his death. A factor remarkably like much of what one hears in from some portions of the the US's black population. 

Lacking any significant knowledge of the event's it's hard for me to decide one way or the other on the culpability of the incident that resulted in the death of my cousin.  And the quality of that Section 1983 Lawsuit seems somewhat poor (cf a due process claim out of the 4th and 14th vs the 5th and 14th amendments). 

Edited July 30, 2024 by rmgill

[Murph]

Prosecutors and judges have ABSOLUTE immunity.  They can do anything they want and cannot suffer the consequences of being sued.  Let that sink in, ABSOLUTE immunity.  Not qualified, but ABSOLUTE.

[rmgill]

58 minutes ago, Murph said:

Prosecutors and judges have ABSOLUTE immunity.  They can do anything they want and cannot suffer the consequences of being sued.  Let that sink in, ABSOLUTE immunity.  Not qualified, but ABSOLUTE.

I've seen it termed unqualified immunity. Which as a legal term, implicates that there are NO qualifiers for the immunity. It is absolute. Whereas with police, there are qualifiers for the immunity, it is NOT absolute. 


There's an interesting case, also out of rural Georgia, Albany to be specific. It involves the DA for Dougherty county going after a man and essentially having his investigator fabricate claims of illegal acts on the part of a man who was critical of Pheobe Putney hospital in a very gadflyish mode. The case went to the supreme court. 

The result:
From Oyez.... https://www.oyez.org/cases/2011/10-788

Question

Are government officials who initiate prosecutions by providing false testimony in judicial proceedings absolutely immune from civil suit?

Yes. In a unanimous decision written by Justice Samuel Alito, the Court held that a witness in a grand jury proceeding is entitled to the same absolute immunity from a § 1983 action as a witness who testifies at trial. Justice Alito looked to the Court's treatment of immunity in § 1983 suits. He determined that the Court has consistently interpreted § 1983 in the light of common law principles, using those principles to identify the government functions considered so important and vulnerable to interference by litigation that they require some form of absolute immunity. Justice Alito noted that witnesses at trial historically enjoy immunity by this reasoning.

Let me be clear on this. An investigator, working for a DA can lie under oath, assist the DA in getting an indictment, in this case three separate indictments, and noone is culpable under § 1983. 

This was in 2011. I dislike this ruling terribly, but I don't think we need to disband or heavily modify the Supreme Court. 

Edited July 30, 2024 by rmgill

[Ivanhoe]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13690223/denver-trainee-police-officer-legs-amputated-hazing-rituals-lawsuit-victor-moses.html
 

Quote

 

A former police recruit claims a 'barbaric hazing ritual' during 'fight day' combat training led to both his legs being amputated.

Victor Moses, 29, is suing the City of Denver and 13 police officers and paramedics who allegedly forced him to continue and ignored warning signs.

The eager recruit claimed he was knocked to the ground during the needlessly violent training, hitting his head on a tile floor and blacking out.

Despite this, he was forced to continue or be struck from the academy, and collapsed several more times and lost consciousness.

Moses was pressured to continue, with officers picking him up and setting him back on his feet, before paramedics standing by were asked to check him out, the lawsuit claimed. 

 

Here's the thing;
 

Quote

 

Moses checked on a medical form that he had the sickle cell trait, adding 'both my parents & I have the trait but never had any problems'.

The condition puts him at an increased risk of medical complications from high-intensity exercise, including rhabdomyolysis, which causes muscles to break down.

Moses endured four agonizing months in hospital where the surgeons had to repeatedly cut away chunks of his flesh in futile attempts to save his legs.

He dictated in heartbreaking detail the incredible pain he suffered, the nightmares and flashbacks he still has, and his frequent thoughts of suicide.

 

I understand the craving people's republics like Denver have for possible POC recruits (virtue signaling, don't ya know). However, if folks with the sickle cell trait are vulnerable to rhabdo, they have no business in emergency services.
 

Quote

 

The lawsuit claimed paramedics cleared Moses to continue the training, even though he was not able to stand or walk to the next round. 

Instead, a trainer brought the ground fighting drill to Moses and got on top of him, after which he was supposed to fight his way out of the hold for two minutes.

Instead, Moses soon said he could not breathe, became 'limp' and unresponsive, and was taken to the hospital, according to the lawsuit.

 

Bolding mine.
 

Quote

 

He 'excelled' through his first three months of academy training, including strenuous gym workouts, and informed the department of his condition.

The ambulance report even noted 'Pt reported that he had sickle cell trait but not sickle cell'.

 

In a rational world, there would be felonies charges all around, but since Denver is now deep blue country, the city will tell all lies needed to avoid civil jeopardy.

[Tim Sielbeck]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

Prosecutors and judges have ABSOLUTE immunity.  They can do anything they want and cannot suffer the consequences of being sued.  Let that sink in, ABSOLUTE immunity.  Not qualified, but ABSOLUTE.

Not quite.  There is a W Va. judge that recently lost her AI because she wasn’t acting properly.  And didn’t an Austin prosecutor get sued for withholding evidence within the last two decades?

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

Not quite.  There is a W Va. judge that recently lost her AI because she wasn’t acting properly.  And didn’t an Austin prosecutor get sued for withholding evidence within the last two decades?

In that case she was acting way outside of her authority as a judge and visiting the home of the contested estate and making direct, involved dictates. Had she done it froM the bench she’d have been fine.

 

The civil Rights Lawyer covered this last year or so. I saw the video of the judge AT the home making a house call and directing the deputies. 

[JWB]

 

[Murph]

Ah, a local police officer in MEXICO, not the US.  Good.  

[Murph]

On 7/30/2024 at 8:34 PM, Tim Sielbeck said:

Not quite.  There is a W Va. judge that recently lost her AI because she wasn’t acting properly.  And didn’t an Austin prosecutor get sued for withholding evidence within the last two decades?

It can happen if it is so bad even the judges groups have to take notice.  Or open and blatant criminal activity.  They can be prosecuted, but I don't think you can sue them until after they are convicted.  I could be wrong.

[Rick]

If this goes to a trial and the police chief is found guilty, then life imprisonment. 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/kansas-raid-tied-98-year-olds-death-first-amendment-showdown-result-criminal-charges

[Mr King]

On 7/30/2024 at 7:00 PM, Ivanhoe said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13690223/denver-trainee-police-officer-legs-amputated-hazing-rituals-lawsuit-victor-moses.html
 

Here's the thing;
 

I understand the craving people's republics like Denver have for possible POC recruits (virtue signaling, don't ya know). However, if folks with the sickle cell trait are vulnerable to rhabdo, they have no business in emergency services.
 

Bolding mine.
 

In a rational world, there would be felonies charges all around, but since Denver is now deep blue country, the city will tell all lies needed to avoid civil jeopardy.

During training like this, I and the rest of my class watched the first guy out get his leg broken by two over aggressive instructors. Just snapped it. We were basically at the last week or two of training. I think the guy ended up graduating, but its been almost 20 years so my memory is fuzzy. The head of the school and the trainee's department were not happy. I don't know what the eventual fallout was, but the immediate fallout was the instructors went easier on the rest of us.

[JWB]

 

[Stargrunt6]

On 8/5/2024 at 8:59 PM, JWB said:

 

Lol he got that EDP treatment.

Meanwhile, around where I'm at:

 

[JWB]

 

[JWB]

 

[Murph]

Yeah, not a good look for that Chief.