When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[R011]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Yes. Police have NEVER been confused and shot at people in plain clothes who asserted authority without clear declarations. 

Within the same department, where they KNOW they have an under cover. 
 

Probably because someone had a brainwave and a moment of sanity. The FBI is NOT noted for informing local police. 

In daylight, after warning them they were coming?  You really think the USSS waiting outside for the FBI to show (as photos show) would mistake their convoy for anything else?

 

And, of course, in real life, nothing like your obsessing over came to pass. You guys are just goalpost moving from the initial lie that this was an assassination attempt.

[rmgill]

9 hours ago, R011 said:

In daylight, after warning them they were coming?  You really think the USSS waiting outside for the FBI to show (as photos show) would mistake their convoy for anything else?

What was the timeline again? 

9 hours ago, R011 said:

And, of course, in real life, nothing like your obsessing over came to pass. You guys are just goalpost moving from the initial lie that this was an assassination attempt.

That would require that every other botched police raid that ended with a death was a defacto deliberate murder and exclude any attribution to negligence, incompetence, poor training or bad luck. 

[R011]

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

What was the timeline again? 

That would require that every other botched police raid that ended with a death was a defacto deliberate murder and exclude any attribution to negligence, incompetence, poor training or bad luck. 

But it wasn't botched, was it?  The obvious federal agents, even without raid jackets, entered without incident as expected.  No one was surprised nor was surprise attempted, no shots fired, no mistaken identity because this isn't an action movie.

Most important, the claim that this was an assassination attempt falls flat on its face because trump wasn't there and known not to be there.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

But it wasn't botched, was it?  

Well, aside from, the evidence handling issues....

 

1 hour ago, R011 said:

Most important, the claim that this was an assassination attempt falls flat on its face because trump wasn't there and known not to be there.

Did I claim it was an assassination attempt? 

 

[Tim Sielbeck]

 

[Tim Sielbeck]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Seems a little excessive.

[Tim Sielbeck]

Seems typical of the training many are receiving these days.

[Stuart Galbraith]

What exactly has happened? Has funding for training in the states collapsed? Or is it just more difficult to hide mistakes, because everyone and their uncle has a mobile phone that can take clips?

 

[Tim Sielbeck]

As to the second part, yes, the proliferation of cameras has changed the perception of how the police are doing their jobs.  As to the first part I think it is more a change in the attitude of how and what the police are supposed to be doing.  Are they supposed to protect and serve?  Or are they an instrument of fund raising for their respective political entities?  SCOTUS has ruled that they have no obligation to protect the citizenry.  And the many levels of political units see the fines and fees that they produce as a viable way to fund ever increasingly larger government bodies.

[Murph]

Well, he got caught, and resigned.  Hopefully it is in a state that tracks these things.  My agency we suspended deputies if they turned off their body cameras, and if it was major/serious they got fired unless it was something like the battery died (through use, not because the deputy forgot to charge it), or the camera actually broke (which does happen, especially after a fight).  

 

 

[Murph]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

What exactly has happened? Has funding for training in the states collapsed? Or is it just more difficult to hide mistakes, because everyone and their uncle has a mobile phone that can take clips?

 

Most states have no post academy instruction required, it is all Field Training Officer based, if you have a good FTO, then great, if you have a slug, its going to be bad.  Plus nowdays everyone has a camera, and can in some cases edit selectively to make cops look bad.  

[rmgill]

Leadership direction and objectives are also a big factor. 

[Murph]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Leadership direction and objectives are also a big factor. 

That is very true.  In Democrat run cites you find the most police corruption.

[Skywalkre]

On 5/27/2024 at 5:28 PM, rmgill said:

So when are we going to see the DOJ prosecutions for the wrongful wiretaps of Trump and the falsely articulated criminal investigation? 

You say they aren't yet, the current pattern of political prosecutions and protections of certain people indicates that they ARE.

Just like this current hysteria over a fantasy of a botched raid that wasn't, I imagine the above is referencing something that doesn't quite fit reality.

If you and others on here were willing to leave the echo chambers where you get your 'news' you'd see Trump's cases in DC and FL are both solid (as viewed from a wide range of legal experts across the spectrum).  If there's any shenanigans in play it's in favor of Trump in those two cases (from the courts helping get them delayed til after the election).  Haven't followed the GA case since it was announced but with a similar case here in AZ and charges/settlements in other states the underlying issues are clearly there (and holding up in court).  The one exception is the NY case, though from what I've seen nothing technically illegal happened... just immoral.

Listening to dissenting opinions is a healthy habit more on here should take up.  As highlighted by this non-story of Mar-a-Lago, when you get sucked so far down the rabbit hole of what you want to believe you start recreating reality to further fit what you want to see.  That's... not a good place to find yourself in.

[rmgill]

8 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Just like this current hysteria over a fantasy of a botched raid that wasn't, I imagine the above is referencing something that doesn't quite fit reality.

It was a potentially botched raid. Other than the evidentiary issues and the indefinite delay as mandated by the judge. 

8 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

If you and others on here were willing to leave the echo chambers where you get your 'news' you'd see Trump's cases in DC and FL are both solid (as viewed from a wide range of legal experts across the spectrum). 

Echo Chamber? Yes. Right. 

Give us a rundown on the laws broken in New York and your best review of the judges directions please.  With that as background, please, tell us more about shenanigans. 

 

8 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Haven't followed the GA case since it was announced

You have't followed the case in Georgia since it was announced? Boy are YOU in for a surprise. 

 

8 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

The one exception is the NY case, though from what I've seen nothing technically illegal happened... just immoral.

Then how did it get as far as it has? 

Please explain that. 
 

8 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Listening to dissenting opinions is a healthy habit more on here should take up.  As highlighted by this non-story of Mar-a-Lago, when you get sucked so far down the rabbit hole of what you want to believe you start recreating reality to further fit what you want to see.  That's... not a good place to find yourself in.

I'm not the one who hasn't heard ANYTHING about the Georgia case by his own admission. 

Here's something for you to check out. What was the relationship between Fanny Willis and the Chief Prosecutor on the Trump/Georgia case? What's his legal background as an attorney? 

[NickM]

12 hours ago, Murph said:

That is very true.  In Democrat run cites you find the most police corruption.

 

Yeah, I've always felt that Blue Cities lefty pols can't really accomplish anything (fill potholes; replace streetlights; clean off the garbage) but they can always 'rein in the rayciss Po-Leese'; so they keep bad cops in the PD.

[rmgill]

It's worse than that. They have policies that conflict and demand results while at the same time driving down morale, training, equipment and response times. AND their policies exacerbate and inflame obvious issues. 

Atlanta Police Department for example puts all their bad officers down at the Airport. Where they run across people flying into town and then get into altercations. The officers there don't have after hours access to the camera footage from the various CCTV cameras because they used the footage to leer at passengers. So the cameras are, after hours watched by noone. The footage is just archived. Great for figuring out hours later what happened. Not great while its happening. 

APD simultaneously pushed drug suppression squads to clamp down on illegal drug trafficking but at the same time trained the officers poorly and raked them over the coals when they shot and killed a man in a shooting that had no legal basis. But they didn't really deal woth the real issue, which was poor training and supervision of rookie officers doing plain clothes duty without the requisite training. Per a friend, it's best to have work like that or Jump out boys supervised by at least one sgt. Doraville, Ga does 2 junior officers and 2 senior officers for their jump out teams. That's a good combination as both senior officers can each ride herd on a junior officer. 

APD was so bad at the response to the rioting in Atlanta and their attempt to go after their own officers that all of the neighboring agencies save for the state pulled support. They didn't want to expose their officers to the decisions of Atlanta and Fulton County. The case that Fulton County DA's levied against their own officer eventually was a complete bust.  When that all went completely rodeo, it was APD and GSP against the entire city and on the Thursday after those 2 officers were cahrged, most APD officers called in sick or went home. The entire city had 14 officers to cover 2 zones. They had to call in people from the jail to back up the few remaining officers. It was REALLY bad. 

The city demands activity and then slams officers for doing what's necessary to get criminals under control. And then doesn't back them up when they need to be, instead throwing them to the mob as sacrifices. 

APD is so bad at dealing with predatory crime that the entire north part of the city (Buckhead) is trying to secede and form it's own town. 

Atlanta was lax on criminals speeding through town and folks doing doughnuts in intersections. It's fallen to the State Patrol to clamp down on this with the Atlanta Police finally going after them while sitting on their hands for several years. 

 

Democrats run police departments into the ground. 

[Rick]

5 hours ago, NickM said:

 

Yeah, I've always felt that Blue Cities lefty pols can't really accomplish anything (fill potholes; replace streetlights; clean off the garbage) but they can always 'rein in the rayciss Po-Leese'; so they keep bad cops in the PD.

The Jackson, MS municipal water supply fiasco is another example. 

[rmgill]

Democrats have neglected infrastructure and spent money on things not necessary like critical infrastructure. Instead spending it on frills and nice to haves. Then everyone is surprised when there's a big problem that comes due. 

[Skywalkre]

On 5/29/2024 at 8:18 PM, rmgill said:

It was a potentially botched raid. Other than the evidentiary issues and the indefinite delay as mandated by the judge.

That indefinite delay has been widely criticized by a majority of experts I've seen.  That's not a new thing in this case because that  judge's behavior in general has been heavily criticized from the beginning.  When you realize she was appointed by Trump it starts to look rather fishy.  How many times on TN over the years have folks criticized decisions by judges appointed by D Presidents as if their was bias?  The same thing is happening here, and pretty blatantly by most experts I've listened to.

On 5/29/2024 at 8:18 PM, rmgill said:

Give us a rundown on the laws broken in New York and your best review of the judges directions please.  With that as background, please, tell us more about shenanigans.

This was in a response to you quoting me about the Fed cases in DC and FL being solid.  I... umm... you make it make sense... because at this point it doesn't even appear that you're reading what you're bothering to quote from me. 

On 5/29/2024 at 8:18 PM, rmgill said:

Then how did it get as far as it has? 

Please explain that.

I was referring to nothing illegal being done by NY authorities.  Trump is absolutely guilty of those misdemeanors, there's no doubt about that.  The issues, and these were raised at the start of this whole affair, stem from how misdemeanors past their statute of limitations got turned into felonies and all the wiggling NY did to make this work.  It just leaves a bad taste in one's mouth and for someone like Trump, with all the baggage and political ramifications, you'd much rather have a case be rock solid... like the ones in DC and FL.

On 5/29/2024 at 8:18 PM, rmgill said:

I'm not the one who hasn't heard ANYTHING about the Georgia case by his own admission.

And...?  Nothing in my comments hinged on me having every detail about that specific case.

You, on the other hand, keep ranting and raving like so many on here about 'political' prosecutions over cases that have plenty of merit.  Thus your argument comes down to... I'm not sure what.  That 'your side' is above the law?  That 'your side' should dictate what is right and wrong?  Or rather, I don't think you're pushing anything other than simply highlighting how your 'news' comes from such a limited number of sources that so misconstrue reality (you all are never gonna live down the hysteria over this 'botched raid in your fantasies' that wasn't) that you're just missing what's actually going on.

This all stems from some 'gotcha' you think you had with me over posting in this thread.  If someone does something illegal they should be held accountable, be they citizens, government officials, or even former Presidents. 

[rmgill]

1 minute ago, Skywalkre said:

That indefinite delay has been widely criticized by a majority of experts I've seen.  That's not a new thing in this case because that  judge's behavior in general has been heavily criticized from the beginning.  When you realize she was appointed by Trump it starts to look rather fishy.  How many times on TN over the years have folks criticized decisions by judges appointed by D Presidents as if their was bias?  The same thing is happening here, and pretty blatantly by most experts I've listened to.

That's fine, but in the background of Hillary not being charged at all and Biden not being charged, it's curious as tot he consistent and equal application of the law. 

As to accusations of bias, well, it's curious to see a SCOTUS case 9-0 against the Biden administration and he and his flaks claim bias and MAGA REPUBLICAN court. 

So....feel free to explain the context there. 

1 minute ago, Skywalkre said:

This was in a response to you quoting me about the Fed cases in DC and FL being solid.  I... umm... you make it make sense... because at this point it doesn't even appear that you're reading what you're bothering to quote from me. 

How about the coordination between the Biden admin and these cases? You CLAIM they're solid. We'll see. They have some issues. Noted above, the election interference argument. 

Again, if you're going to argue consistent application of the law, please, feel free to explain when Biden and Clinton are going to be charged. 



 

1 minute ago, Skywalkre said:

I was referring to nothing illegal being done by NY authorities.  Trump is absolutely guilty of those misdemeanors, there's no doubt about that. 

How? An NDA payment manifests as a campaign contribution? How in the hell? Are we going to see Hillary and Bill charged for all of THEIR NDA related hush cases? You KNOW they had fixers active in New York. 

1 minute ago, Skywalkre said:

The issues, and these were raised at the start of this whole affair, stem from how misdemeanors past their statute of limitations got turned into felonies and all the wiggling NY did to make this work.  It just leaves a bad taste in one's mouth and for someone like Trump, with all the baggage and political ramifications, you'd much rather have a case be rock solid... like the ones in DC and FL.

And...?  Nothing in my comments hinged on me having every detail about that specific case.

You, on the other hand, keep ranting and raving like so many on here about 'political' prosecutions over cases that have plenty of merit.  Thus your argument comes down to... I'm not sure what. 

Try consistent application of law. 

The clear pattern is that Democrats can twist the law into a pretzel to get a conviction on an un-charged, expired federal crime, tortured into a state level misdemeanor, that makes it a felony with predicates on a conviction of the felony based upon a plea by another entire person and such person admitted to embezzlement on the stand. 

And Bragg wasn't he an official under the Biden Admin at one point? 


 

1 minute ago, Skywalkre said:

That 'your side' is above the law?  That 'your side' should dictate what is right and wrong?  Or rather, I don't think you're pushing anything other than simply highlighting how your 'news' comes from such a limited number of sources that so misconstrue reality (you all are never gonna live down the hysteria over this 'botched raid in your fantasies' that wasn't) that you're just missing what's actually going on.

I don't think you're going to ever get over the in ability to recognize long standing issues in law enforcement which threaten to manifest again and you just ignore it because it's all fine. You claim to have issues with Law Enforcement Malfeasance but then when it comes to the Feds your objections are as firm as wet tissue paper. 

 

1 minute ago, Skywalkre said:

This all stems from some 'gotcha' you think you had with me over posting in this thread.  If someone does something illegal they should be held accountable, be they citizens, government officials, or even former Presidents. 

Then tell me, when are Biden and Clinton being charged for the same or worse crimes? Bearing in mind, AGAIN, that neither had final classification authority where as Trump did. And Hillary, in the process of sorting the emails committed additional classified document handling violations by giving the material to her attorneys who also had no classified clearance. 

Here's a thing Skywalkre, the fact that statute of limitations limits have been twisted to get these convictions or lawsuits and the basic process of court proceedings were twisted to do same, should come as a warning to you and you shouldn't stand for them. The charges aside, the simple fact that the jury instructions were so out of the ordinary and the nature of the way the connections were made between state and federal laws should be a dire warning for you. 

It's clearly rule of man and not rule of law. 

 

[JWB]

 

[Rick]

8 minutes ago, JWB said:

 

The officer(s) in charge of this murderous debacle should also be fired if not more honestly face charges and said deputy arrested for murder.

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, JWB said:

 

Eh, a part of me wants to celebrate and point out this is progress.  But the reality is this largely means... nothing.  Will he be charged?  Though trends have started to shift historically the answer is 'unlikely'.  If he's not, again, historically he'll likely just end up at a nearby department.

I like to point folks to the very first post in this thread and what happened in that case.  That case, here in the Valley, was one where everyone unanimously agreed the cop murdered that innocent man.  That cop was fired... but he ended up suing and all these years later the last I heard was he won some settlement and got his retirement, medical coverage, and a host of other things after murdering an innocent man for being a terrible cop.

So... yeah.  I'll applaud the march of justice once this guy find his way behind bars (which, historically, is unlikely).