When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[Ivanhoe]

Nothing more honest and above-board than Fed assault troops covering a doorbell camera before a dynamic entry.

 

[Skywalkre]

12 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Nothing more honest and above-board than Fed assault troops covering a doorbell camera before a dynamic entry.

 

Local police banging on a door/ringing the doorbell and then moving out of sight of a peephole are no better.  That can end up with confused and concerned residents showing up at the door armed and poorly trained police killing them.  That got the Airman killed in FL recently and there was a similar case here in the Valley with the same result.

Btw, that incident here in the Valley resulted in no charges against the cops.  If I were a betting man I would say the cop in FL has nothing to worry about as well...

[JWB]

 

[Skywalkre]

We have our own issues here in the States with LEOs sexually assaulting children.  WaPo did a piece weeks ago where they highlight their own investigation discovered over 1800 LEOs were accused of sexually assaulting minors in the US in the last two decades.  It was behind a paywall for the longest time but now appears to be accessible to everyone.

All this focus on sites like TN about the dangers of the LGBTQ+ community towards kids... and the whole time the biggest concern might have been police (and religious leaders from what a friend is telling me).

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Local police banging on a door/ringing the doorbell and then moving out of sight of a peephole are no better.  That can end up with confused and concerned residents showing up at the door armed and poorly trained police killing them.  That got the Airman killed in FL recently and there was a similar case here in the Valley with the same result.

Btw, that incident here in the Valley resulted in no charges against the cops.  If I were a betting man I would say the cop in FL has nothing to worry about as well...

So you grasp that police serving warrants should be obvious and overt. 

Ok. So why should the FBI not adhere to this concept? 

[Skywalkre]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

So you grasp that police serving warrants should be obvious and overt. 

Ok. So why should the FBI not adhere to this concept? 

I think I've been pretty consistent over the years that all law enforcement use tac teams and procedures like no-knocks far too much.  That everyday police behavior is aimed to protect themselves against the 0.0001% happening while putting average Americans responding appropriately in far more danger and that that shouldn't be because they're not above us.

And before you try... what happened in Mar-a-Lago doesn't fit into any of this (and we already have a thread for that).

Edited May 27, 2024 by Skywalkre

[rmgill]

36 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

I think I've been pretty consistent over the years that all law enforcement use tac teams and procedures like no-knocks far too much.  That everyday police behavior is aimed to protect themselves against the 0.0001% happening while putting average Americans responding appropriately in far more danger and that that shouldn't be because they're not above us.

Sorry. Federal agents don't get a pass and aren't special. They should be held to a higher standard. They're held to a LOWER standard. 

The ATF has a habit of going after EASY cases but doing so in a very HEAVY hand. FBI is even more lax. 

As Emily says, in this day and age, federal agents should not be executing no knock warrants without body cams. 

ATF, FBI, Customs, IRS, etc. 
 

36 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

And before you try... what happened in Mar-a-Lago doesn't fit into any of this (and we already have a thread for that).

Yes. Because the federal and state level charges of Trump have been VERY even handed. The wiretaps and investigation was all predicated upon lawfully found evidence right? Right? 

Edited May 27, 2024 by rmgill

[Skywalkre]

44 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Sorry. Federal agents don't get a pass and aren't special.

Never said they did.  🙄

[rmgill]

17 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Never said they did.  🙄

So when are we going to see the DOJ prosecutions for the wrongful wiretaps of Trump and the falsely articulated criminal investigation? 

You say they aren't yet, the current pattern of political prosecutions and protections of certain people indicates that they ARE. 


 

Edited May 28, 2024 by rmgill

[R011]

So did the FBI sneak up to the main building under cover then suddenly rush forth and batter down the front door, guns drawn and shouting incoherently or did they just walk up to the door, knock, and identify themselves with weapons holstered?

[rmgill]

If they had not coordinated with the Secret Service if they’d walked up and bulled through it would have been bad. 

[R011]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

If they had not coordinated with the Secret Service if they’d walked up and bulled through it would have been bad. 

Because Secret Service or Trump's private security would have started a gun fight with FBI agents knocking at the door and then just coming in?  Are his security that stupid or suicidal?

And I'm taking this as a tacit acknowledgment that the FBI did, in fact, knock on the door rather then try some more kinetic approach.

Edited May 28, 2024 by R011

[rmgill]

4 minutes ago, R011 said:

Because Secret Service or Trump's private security would have started a gun fight with FBI agents knocking at the door and then just coming in?  Are his security that stupid or suicidal?

Yes. Police have NEVER been confused and shot at people in plain clothes who asserted authority without clear declarations. 

Within the same department, where they KNOW they have an under cover. 
 

4 minutes ago, R011 said:

And I'm taking this as a tacit acknowledgment that the FBI did, in fact, knock on the door rather then try some more kinetic approach.

Probably because someone had a brainwave and a moment of sanity. The FBI is NOT noted for informing local police. 

[R011]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Yes. Police have NEVER been confused and shot at people in plain clothes who asserted authority without clear declarations. 

Within the same department, where they KNOW they have an under cover. 
 

Probably because someone had a brainwave and a moment of sanity. The FBI is NOT noted for informing local police. 

In daylight, after warning them they were coming?  You really think the USSS waiting outside for the FBI to show (as photos show) would mistake their convoy for anything else?

 

And, of course, in real life, nothing like your obsessing over came to pass. You guys are just goalpost moving from the initial lie that this was an assassination attempt.

[rmgill]

9 hours ago, R011 said:

In daylight, after warning them they were coming?  You really think the USSS waiting outside for the FBI to show (as photos show) would mistake their convoy for anything else?

What was the timeline again? 

9 hours ago, R011 said:

And, of course, in real life, nothing like your obsessing over came to pass. You guys are just goalpost moving from the initial lie that this was an assassination attempt.

That would require that every other botched police raid that ended with a death was a defacto deliberate murder and exclude any attribution to negligence, incompetence, poor training or bad luck. 

[R011]

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

What was the timeline again? 

That would require that every other botched police raid that ended with a death was a defacto deliberate murder and exclude any attribution to negligence, incompetence, poor training or bad luck. 

But it wasn't botched, was it?  The obvious federal agents, even without raid jackets, entered without incident as expected.  No one was surprised nor was surprise attempted, no shots fired, no mistaken identity because this isn't an action movie.

Most important, the claim that this was an assassination attempt falls flat on its face because trump wasn't there and known not to be there.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

But it wasn't botched, was it?  

Well, aside from, the evidence handling issues....

 

1 hour ago, R011 said:

Most important, the claim that this was an assassination attempt falls flat on its face because trump wasn't there and known not to be there.

Did I claim it was an assassination attempt? 

 

[Tim Sielbeck]

 

[Tim Sielbeck]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Seems a little excessive.

[Tim Sielbeck]

Seems typical of the training many are receiving these days.

[Stuart Galbraith]

What exactly has happened? Has funding for training in the states collapsed? Or is it just more difficult to hide mistakes, because everyone and their uncle has a mobile phone that can take clips?

 

[Tim Sielbeck]

As to the second part, yes, the proliferation of cameras has changed the perception of how the police are doing their jobs.  As to the first part I think it is more a change in the attitude of how and what the police are supposed to be doing.  Are they supposed to protect and serve?  Or are they an instrument of fund raising for their respective political entities?  SCOTUS has ruled that they have no obligation to protect the citizenry.  And the many levels of political units see the fines and fees that they produce as a viable way to fund ever increasingly larger government bodies.

[Murph]

Well, he got caught, and resigned.  Hopefully it is in a state that tracks these things.  My agency we suspended deputies if they turned off their body cameras, and if it was major/serious they got fired unless it was something like the battery died (through use, not because the deputy forgot to charge it), or the camera actually broke (which does happen, especially after a fight).  

 

 

[Murph]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

What exactly has happened? Has funding for training in the states collapsed? Or is it just more difficult to hide mistakes, because everyone and their uncle has a mobile phone that can take clips?

 

Most states have no post academy instruction required, it is all Field Training Officer based, if you have a good FTO, then great, if you have a slug, its going to be bad.  Plus nowdays everyone has a camera, and can in some cases edit selectively to make cops look bad.