When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible

[Ivanhoe]

Thought experiment;

Imagine the LT getting pulled over by MPs, or worse yet, CID.

 

[Ivanhoe]

As for SMA Grinston;

https://www.aerotechnews.com/ntcfortirwin/2020/10/06/sma-grinston-wants-to-retire-armys-term-i-only-see-green/
 

Quote

 

The Army has long had a stance to look at people as soldiers only, with soldiers and leaders saying they only “see green” when it comes to race.

Disproportionate police brutality toward minorities and protests about systemic racism are making the Army rethink how being green ignores the experiences of some soldiers.

Grinston also said he’s no fan of soldiers using the phrase, “I only see green,” when talking about diversity and race, because not seeing soldiers as individuals can leave them hurt, unappreciated and discriminated against.

 

IOW, bring identity politics into every fire team, squad, and platoon. And its unclear how a soldier's experiences pre-Army and/or off-post is the responsibility of the Army. How is a platoon Sgt or whatever supposed to deal with a black soldier who grew up in southside Chicago?

 

 

 

[rmgill]

6 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Went for the Taser, grabbed the Glock(well, black pistol). Do they come with similar grips than handguns or has Taser deliberately designed them with different haptics? 

https://www.fox9.com/video/921048

 

Sometimes this is a policy/department training thing, sometimes officer prefernece. We've seen this before like with the BART shooting. 

Ideally, from talking to cop friends who train and/or supervise, you want your taser holster on your OFF hand side, ie weak side and arranged for use with that off hand. Your firearm goes on your strong side, ie if right handed, your right side. You do not cross draw to get to the taser. This way the muscle memory for TASER is with the other hand and not short circuiting the path. 

Tasers typically come with lights now and better models come with a camera. So if you need to shine a light on a suspect, it's reasonably safe to do so with the less than lethal method AND you have recording at the same time AND if you need to go to guns, you're not having to fumble with the weak hand stowing the taser (or dropping it ) while getting the gun into action. You just reach for the gun. 

In general, cops with good training work to keep their gun hand free in unknown encounters, using their off hand for lights and holding tablets, etc. One pointed out that if he has a pen in his hand and has to fight, he uses the rather stout pens he carried to stab and then go for the sidearm. 
 

[Ivanhoe]

 

I disagree with Officer Tatum, in that she should be charged. The same as if a civilian accidentally shoots and kills someone.

 

 

[Simon Tan]

The media ensures ratings by maximizing the chances of a poor outcome in every law enforcement engagement. Black people just get played.

[Ivanhoe]

 

[Ivanhoe]

https://vacode.org/2016/18.2/10/6/18.2-460/

 

Quote

 

§ 18.2-460

Obstructing justice; penalty

A. If any person without just cause knowingly obstructs a judge, magistrate, justice, juror, attorney for the Commonwealth, witness, any law-enforcement officer, or animal control officer employed pursuant to § 3.2-6555 in the performance of his duties as such or fails or refuses without just cause to cease such obstruction when requested to do so by such judge, magistrate, justice, juror, attorney for the Commonwealth, witness, law-enforcement officer, or animal control officer employed pursuant to § 3.2-6555, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

 

No mention of a concealed carry license, in which case a loaded firearm within reach in Virginia is automatic prison time.

 

[rmgill]

Doughnut is in on this too. 
 

Defund the Police. That's optimal right? 

Cops having training issues.... what can that result from? Hmmm.... 🤔

Edited April 13, 2021 by rmgill

[Ivanhoe]

Some fun comments from the last video;

"I wonder what he would act if his men start asking him questions when he give them commands? "Why should I run a 5 mile ruck?" Why should I do PT?" "Why do I need to follow your commands?" "Do I need to follow your commands because I am white?"

"He was probably on profile"

"What lieutenant? What's your order? What's going on? What's going on? What's going on?"

"As a Afro Latina I have been pulled over in my uniform..but I complied even when the cop was acting a damn fool."

"That guy claimed to be scared. He was calm. Incredibly calm. Respectfully calm. And let me tell you, that's the calm that scares people."

"The 2LT was wrong start to finish. He's wearing a uniform while out of regulation (that patch of hair on his chin) which means he wasn't going or coming from drill (He's wearing a 29th INF patch which means he's National Guard). It's Saturday, he's in uniform and carrying a gun while off duty. This is all sorts of wrong. Nothing about that lieutenant's actions are rational or conduct becoming of a Comminssioned Officer."

"He’s a Lt so I’m not surprised he can’t follow simple instructions"

"Can you imagine how this would have gone down if he had tried it on base with the MP's? He would be in the brig bruised and battered listening to his CO rip him a new one."

"The difference between a 2nd lieutenant and a private E-2 is the private E-2 has been promoted once"

"When I was in the military police back in 83 we would have jacked him up. He's a wanna be warrior. I don't know if any body watch videos of the the way boot camp is today, but that shit wouldn't have happened back then."

"Article 133, Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer"

"That Lieutenant showed poor judgment, tact and his behavior overall was unprofessional and childish."

"Security Forces would have closed on the vehicle and had hands on while putting him prone after the 3rd show of non compliance. "

"He's out there in the s#$% just like everybody else. Until he obtains rank of Col. ... He'll be in the field with his men during every operation/deployment. Just good luck with that now is my point. Cause he literally will have ZERO respect from the men in his unit. Zero respect."

"My issue here for the soldier is that anyone knows the uniform code of military justice expresses that any law enforcement is always considered one rank senior to you. He probably has trouble with the Army due to not obeying a lawful command to exit the vehicle."

 

 

[rmgill]

I can't wait to see what Angry Cop/Angry Drill Sgt has to say about the 2nd Louie incident. 

[rmgill]

33 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

https://vacode.org/2016/18.2/10/6/18.2-460/

 

No mention of a concealed carry license, in which case a loaded firearm within reach in Virginia is automatic prison time.

 

Careful. Va might allow carry for Military personnel. In Georgia, anyone employed by the state or federal defense forces carries under the same statue that police officers are allowed to carry under. For Ga it's 16-11-130. 

 

[Burncycle360]

Aside from not hiring the obvious tools, you need three things to minimize these incidents: training, experience, and burnout mitigation.  Those directly stem from a certain degree of funding, job security, and manpower.  You cannot eliminate those three things and expect anything to improve, all you will discover is a sense of perspective when things get worse.

That doesn't mean protect bad cops, that doesn't mean look the other way at manslaughter, but it also doesn't mean throwing any cop under the bus as fast as humanly possible as a sacrifice to appease the mob either. They're human and will make mistakes, but you can't get experienced cops any other way but through.  Defunding the police reduces training and manpower, resulting in overworking of the remaining officers which means even less time for training, and less downtime, leading to burnout, which leads to poor judgement and more incidents. Eventually the people worth a damn will stop becoming police officers because you don't get paid enough to be treated like dogshit by both the public and your supervisors, then guess what? A self fulfilling prophecy where only assholes seeking power-trips will be applying.

The truth is this:  Never in the history of the United States have officers been held more accountable than they are right now, and up until the race baiters (particularly on the left) gained traction this last decade, the United States had never been functionally less racist as a society.  Instead of the media and public officials providing perspective and calling for calm and rationality, they feed into and reinforce the delusion that more often than not police officers are racists looking for any reason to kill a brown person.

You are more likely to be struck by lightning than unjustifiably killed by a police officer. That's not hyperbole, you can look up the annual statistics.

That isn't intended to minimize the incidents in which it does happen, and of course we should continuously push for reform, but there are baseline of incidents that will occur any time you're dealing with police / citizen contacts numbering in the millions annually, and we're butting up against it. Racist cops certainly exist, but I don't believe they exist in the proportions or magnitude common sentiment would have you believe, and unfortunately sentiment has a generational half life.

My opinion is that general abuse of authority by police officers on a power trip remains a far more widespread and serious problem than systemic racism in the force, along with those who look the other way when it happens and cover for their fellow officer. These are the sorts of people who could be racist, sure, but they're more likely to simply be opportunistic jerks who will do this sort of thing any time they suspect "contempt of cop", regardless of race.  Little things like holding you for longer than they need to because you happen to know your rights, or "finding" something to charge you with later because they just don't like your attitude. These are much harder to quantify and much less likely to make the news.
 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Burncycle360

[Ivanhoe]

Something that doesn't make sense to me in the Chauvin trial; the prosecution has had 12 days, apparently the defense will only have 3.

From what I am reading on Legal Insurrection, it sounds like there have been several prosecution witnesses that the defense will want to recall to the stand for further questioning. But if the defense plans to bring in new defense witnesses, 3 days doesn't sound like much time.

[rmgill]

How does a trial have a set number of days? 

[nitflegal]

As an honest question, aside form having some close friends who are police officers I have never been one, dressed up and LARPed as one, or even stayed in a holiday Inn express last night.  I do have experience doing some monumentally stupid things over the years in the heat of a fecalstorm (ooo, guess I didn't turn the wattage on my CO2 surgical laser like I thought I had, that's a lot of red stuff. . . ) if the officer in question has been doing this for 25 years is it possible thta she just legitimately f*cked up?  Like by pure accident?  The reporting is basically that she sucks and is stupid and a giant poopy head who should never have had a badge but when we have friendly fire incidents and hospitals have the highest risks of deaths outside of licking poisonous frogs could this just be a simple and could happen to almost any typical cop screw up?

Honestly curious because I don't have the experience or expertise to make a sound judgement.

[glenn239]

2 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

is it possible thta she just legitimately f*cked up?  Like by pure accident? 

I'd think so.  I think she might have been really frightened and distracted and running on pure instinct.  Apparently the gun is set to the dominant hand side, which might have been a contributing factor.

[Ivanhoe]

2 hours ago, rmgill said:

How does a trial have a set number of days? 

The explanation I have heard is that the judge wants defense to conclude by Friday COB, closing remarks and deliberations starting Monday along with sequestration, so that the jury can go home on the weekend.

 

[Ivanhoe]

50 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

The reporting is basically that she sucks and is stupid and a giant poopy head who should never have had a badge but when we have friendly fire incidents and hospitals have the highest risks of deaths outside of licking poisonous frogs could this just be a simple and could happen to almost any typical cop screw up?

If you watch the video I posted in its entirety, its pretty obvious the two junior officers were poorly trained and/or inept.

Hanlon's Razor.

[Simon Tan]

Was she a diversity hire? 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, nitflegal said:

As an honest question, aside form having some close friends who are police officers I have never been one, dressed up and LARPed as one, or even stayed in a holiday Inn express last night.  I do have experience doing some monumentally stupid things over the years in the heat of a fecalstorm (ooo, guess I didn't turn the wattage on my CO2 surgical laser like I thought I had, that's a lot of red stuff. . . ) if the officer in question has been doing this for 25 years is it possible thta she just legitimately f*cked up?  Like by pure accident?  The reporting is basically that she sucks and is stupid and a giant poopy head who should never have had a badge but when we have friendly fire incidents and hospitals have the highest risks of deaths outside of licking poisonous frogs could this just be a simple and could happen to almost any typical cop screw up?

Honestly curious because I don't have the experience or expertise to make a sound judgement.

It'll boil down to training and experience. Leadership and funding directly impact these sorts of things. 

Drawing and using your taser over your side arm is from poor training and/or not enough training. Even lots of training of the wrong sort can be bad. As muscle memory can assert the wrong behavior set. Some where out there, there's video of a cop who's discharged all 6 of his rounds of out his revolver and is walking back and forth while bullets are whizzing past his head while he tries to find the bucket to dump his spent shells into because that was what was drilled into him in the training cycles at the police range. 

I'm sure the meat eaters here can give you some other more concrete and direct examples of bad or good training/muscle memory hindering or saving the day. 

Good leadership and training cycles will weed out the folks who can't cut it. 

 

[Ivanhoe]

Apparently the Newhall incident was not as advertised;

https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/setting-the-record-straight-on-the-newhall-incident-qCwXs8stVK31qmSC/

 

[WRW]

Many many years ago I got invited on a shooting range in Turkey. Fired of a mzgazine worth from an M4. To the surprise of the m4 owner I handed him bzck the carbine and then collected the shell casings to hand over as well. Pure habit. When shooting when young i was always told collect my cases.

[DB]

Looking at the wikipedia article on tasers, one of the variants pictured looks rather more like an automatic pistol than the others. Does anyone know what type of taser the officer was issued with?

Also, this is far from the first time that we've seen incidents that would likely have gone a lot better if hte police offiers were adequately trained.

Although this type of occurrence is thankfully rare, there have been enough similar incidents over the years to be noteworthy. This looks like a syndicated article covering several instances, with various legal conclusions. (It's a lot harder to claim a "heat of the moment error" when the victim is lying on his face and is cuffed, for instance.)

 https://www.twincities.com/2021/04/12/explainer-how-does-an-officer-use-a-gun-instead-of-a-taser/

[rmgill]

Well it's one thing to do so deliberately. It's another thing to have that behavior pattern assert even under a stress situation and run you down a behavior path that's VERY contrary to survival. 

[EchoFiveMike]

Life is supposed to be hard, it's how you weed out the weak.

Of course she was a AA hire, it's a "she."  More importantly, 20+ fucking years on the job and still not remotely competent.  Tell me again about the value of training vs selection?

Someone please explain to be what benefit I get from I, and every other competent Man, get from this police state we've established?  And why I shouldn't be all for defunding said police state?  S/F....Ken M