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We can not blame the people for living in the time of a communist coup attempt (or may be 2 already). Defending president Trump is the biggest thing since defeating Hitler, it is equally important for the freedom of America. 

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On 11/19/2020 at 8:26 PM, rmgill said:

The polls were predicting a Biden blowout. It was not. 

The polls said the same thing last time and were wrong. Why are they somehow right now? What changed? 
 

Nothing changed. The polls had a 'blue tint' just like in 2016, which was seen in Biden's victory being more narrow than predicted by most and Democrats failing to win Senate.

Newest narrative is apparently Democrat conspiracy in big cities to increase Biden's tally. Philadelphia was mentioned. Yet let us look at Philadelphia results in 2016: Clinton 584k, Trump 109k, 82-15 for Clinton. 2020: Biden 604k, Trump 133k, 81-18 for Biden. Trump actually gained in Philadelphia compared to 2016! It was smaller cities and rural towns where Biden gained compared to Clinton - those places where election was supposedly more 'honest'. So again, while this doesn't PROVE anything, it is highly indicative that the 'big city' conspiracy is nonsense at least in respect to Pennsylvania result.

 

Edited by Yama
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I confess to being torn on this.  I find it unlikely that anyone could put together a fraud case of this magnitude in such a short time but I also don't want a President Dementia and VP Knee Pads and if the fraud exists it needs to be uncovered so we can fix this stuff or it needs to break with a wet fart so that we can move on.  I also can't get worked up about a president under a cloud of conspiracy distrust after the past four years, hitting back is the only way to teach the Democrats that if they lie to hobble a president they will duffer the same fate.

 

However I also really fear the results if there if fraud and it is exposed and it does flip the election. That is such a volatile political bomb that we will see massive and irreversible changes to our country.  I suspect many of those will be unexpected or unwelcome.  

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1 hour ago, nitflegal said:

However I also really fear the results if there if fraud and it is exposed and it does flip the election. That is such a volatile political bomb that we will see massive and irreversible changes to our country.  I suspect many of those will be unexpected or unwelcome.  

The only result worse than establishing the fraud and flipping the election, is not establishing the fraud. Because our elections will become a Soviet joke. Laws are all about maintaining an adverse cost/benefit to perpetrators; when there is no adverse cost to criminal behavior, you're going to have devastating amounts of criminal behavior.

 

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45 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

The only result worse than establishing the fraud and flipping the election, is not establishing the fraud. Because our elections will become a Soviet joke. Laws are all about maintaining an adverse cost/benefit to perpetrators; when there is no adverse cost to criminal behavior, you're going to have devastating amounts of criminal behavior.

 

You may be right but my guess is that if this turns out to be an unsupported wet fart it will massively tarnish Trump himself and his brand of Republicanism.  He gets cast aside and there will probably be prosecution of him for whatever might stick (and I'll say it outright, if he and his team know they are full of shit and are the ones actually trying to steal the election I will angrily support that prosecution and look forward to him and his team in prison jumpsuits).   There will always be a significant pissed off group whatever happens but proving a fraudulent presidential election will have massive impacts on the Democratic party, a significant minority of the Republican party and open the floodgates to investigations of previous presidential elections.  What the Hell happens if we dig into elections and find indications that previous presidents were also fraudulently elected (which a not insignificant minority believes but can't prove) with actual proof.  My perception of the average US citizen supports a winner and hates being cheated.  If people believe that Trump is an ineffective fascist what happens if he has an angry mandate to punish those who tried to steal an election?  

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I take it that no evidence of voter fraud going Trump's way has been uncovered/disclosed?

Or will that only emerge when there is a substantial risk of team Trump flipping the election?

 

And yes, Seahawk, I know Republican voters are 100% certifiably honest, but them sneaky Communist bastards may have dressed in MAGA hats and... you know...

Edited by Stefan Fredriksson
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5 minutes ago, Simon Tan said:

Errrr....they already tried and failed several times to remove him by all means. 

Yeah, but as bad as those are (and those involved should have been purged from public life as punishment but their constituents and viewers don't agree) this is an order of magnitude or two higher.

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5 minutes ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

I take it that no evidence of voter fraud going Trump's way has been uncovered/disclosed?

Or will that only emerge when there is a substantial risk of team Trump flipping the election?

 

And yes, Seahawk, I know Republican voters are 100% certifiably honest, but them sneaky Communist bastards may have dressed in MAGA hats and... you know...

I haven't seen any reported and I've been looking.  There has to be some, reliably red states have just as many incompetent idiots as blue ones.  My guess is it is waiting.  Why release it now when the argument is that there is no fraud; wait until fraud is proven and then swoop in and say Trump did it to to defuse that step of the process.

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32 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

I haven't seen any reported and I've been looking.  There has to be some, reliably red states have just as many incompetent idiots as blue ones.  My guess is it is waiting.  Why release it now when the argument is that there is no fraud; wait until fraud is proven and then swoop in and say Trump did it to to defuse that step of the process.

There is this guy.
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-supporter-arrested-requesting-absentee-234948543.html
AFAIK this is the only confirmed case of (in this case attempted) voter fraud so far.

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8 hours ago, Colin said:

Well the site having issues didn't help. Also when new people show up and ask the same questions that were asked years ago, the older posters do need to show patience with them. I been sending invites out to get some new blood. We need more than just Canadian-US and Brits posters. Some new folks from other places would be nice.

Its more than that Colin. I know for a fact at least one person left because of the poisionous nature of the debate here. Lastdingo being handed his coat was the last straw.

You have to ask yourself this question, who in their right mind would want to debate here, when the nature of debate makes it look like a barfight among methheads. And yes, mea culpea on that one, although I try to recognise the line and not insult people. It seems a goodly number of our bretheren have forgotten even that particular manner.

We can disagree and stop treating each other like enemies. There is absolutely no need for it, and its killing us.

 

 

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Something good that might come from the upheaval about voting fraud investigations would be a thorough reform of the election system, but for reasons mentioned before I don't see it; both parties believe they have too much to gain from exploiting the current weaknesses. Taking redistricting out of the hands of state legislatures and give it to impartial bodies (I understand a few states are actually doing this) - there go the safely gerrymandered seats of various members of Congress from either side.

Same for impartial oversight of the election process - you lose the capability for interference here, even if the other side loses it over there, too. Automatic voter registration and ID? You lose the capability to include or exclude groups based on their likely sympathy for one side or the other. Realistically secure voting methods? How are you going to sue away an inappropriate result then? I mean, the parties would be totally at the mercy of a fully enfranchised electorate voting on their actual policies. That is probably a scary thought for most actors in the legacy system. 

Edited by BansheeOne
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19 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

...

We can disagree and stop treating each other like enemies. There is absolutely no need for it, and its killing us.

 

 

This.

It is also easy to blame Trump. But I do not think he is posting on TN.

The last four years... I have stayed for a few reasons; I have no better place yet, watching the downwards spiral has been eye-opening and instructional, and lastly if Biden ascends the throne, watch this site burn.

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9 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Have you stopped to think how many posters have left? Go take a look on the AFV thread, its near dead. There is very little happening on any of the other threads.

What am I afraid of? Im afraid that if its conclusively found that Trump was lying through his teeth, many of you wont accept it, and we are in for another decade of infighting, backbiting, and running people off the site that dont agree. That is what im afraid of.

This used to be a military site that dabbled in politics. Now its a politics site that dabbles in military discussion, if at all.

 

Sure, it's Trump's fault. Is there anything that man can't do?

We had to suffer four years of Russia baloney and you didn't complain about the climate of the forum, except when we debated the facts back. How dare we!

It couldn't possibly be the years of Google security warnings.

It couldn't possibly be the "We've already covered that topic, dummkopf" responses in the military forums.

The answer to the FFZ giving members the vapors is to not come here. Spend your time in the other forums.

We will not be silent because some people think hearing alternate facts is too disturbing.

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1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Sure, it's Trump's fault. Is there anything that man can't do?

We had to suffer four years of Russia baloney and you didn't complain about the climate of the forum, except when we debated the facts back. How dare we!

It couldn't possibly be the years of Google security warnings.

It couldn't possibly be the "We've already covered that topic, dummkopf" responses in the military forums.

The answer to the FFZ giving members the vapors is to not come here. Spend your time in the other forums.

We will not be silent because some people think hearing alternate facts is too disturbing.

Actually if say this current trend started under Obama. But under Trump, all the remaining civility was chucked overboard.

If hearing alternative points of view is what this is about, why run off people like Lastdingo or Paul G? Increasingly many of you are not listening to alternative views. All the alternative views have liked off.

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19 minutes ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

This.

It is also easy to blame Trump. But I do not think he is posting on TN.

The last four years... I have stayed for a few reasons; I have no better place yet, watching the downwards spiral has been eye-opening and instructional, and lastly if Biden ascends the throne, watch this site burn.

It's not Trump directly. But it is fair to say his rhetoric, his desire to make enemies of anyone with alternative views or facts, has had an impact here. It's like it's given permission to abandon empathy and reason. 

I'm not perfect, I'm aware I have a certain reputation with our Russian contingent. but I d probably be more tolerant if some of them didn't continually repeat easily disproved lies, and pretend there is no real truth anymore. There are many here who subscribe to that kind of bs because it's newly fashionable, and nobody here has the excuse of being stupid enough to embrace it.

We can all do better. And judging by the swiftly dwindling posters here, we really need to do better.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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Interesting trend is that Trump lawyers tend to stress that they're not claiming fraud, probably due to risk of getting disbarred:  

Maricopa County (the sharpie one) -- 

Quote

But in a hearing on Nov. 12, Kory Langhofer, a lawyer for the Trump campaign, conceded that the complaint was not based on evidence of voter fraud but rather on a “limited number of cases” of “good-faith errors” in the count.
“This is not a fraud case,” Mr. Langhofer said. “We are not alleging fraud. We are not saying anyone is trying to steal the election.”"

Lin Wood, Georgia (not entirely relevant but I just had to throw this one in) --

Quote

Russell J. Ramsland Jr., a cybersecurity worker and an expert witness in the case, filed an affidavit on Wednesday claiming that his company had uncovered evidence of inconsistencies in electronic voting machines. But the inconsistencies he claimed to identify were in districts in Michigan, not Georgia.

The affidavit also listed a number of towns and counties in which Mr. Ramsland’s analysis ostensibly showed that the number of votes cast exceeded the number of eligible voters. But most, if not all, of the places Mr. Ramsland listed appeared to be townships and counties in Minnesota, not Michigan.

Pennsylvania legal challenges:

Quote

“This is not a fraud case,” [Giuliani] told Judge Matthew W. Brann.

Quote

In oral arguments in a case in Montgomery County on Nov. 10, Jonathan Goldstein, a lawyer for the Trump campaign, stated repeatedly that he also had not seen evidence of voter fraud in the vote that was contested there:

THE COURT: In your petition, which is right before me — and I read it several times — you don’t claim that any electors or the Board of the County were guilty of fraud, correct? That’s correct?
MR. GOLDSTEIN: Your honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step. And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the board of the D.N.C. or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith. The D.N.C. is coming with good faith. We’re all just trying to get an election done. We think these were a mistake, but we think they are a fatal mistake, and these ballots ought not be counted.
THE COURT: I understand. I am asking you a specific question, and I am looking for a specific answer. Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?
MR. GOLDSTEIN: To my knowledge at present, no.
THE COURT: Are you claiming that there is any undue or improper influence upon the elector with respect to these 592 ballots?
MR. GOLDSTEIN: To my knowledge at present, no.

Lawyers representing the Trump campaign in Bucks County signed court documents on Wednesday informing a judge that there was no evidence of fraud in relation to ballots they were contesting there.

The campaign had filed suit in the county’s Court of Common Pleas challenging more than 2,200 ballots as invalid. But in a joint stipulation of facts with lawyers for the Democratic Party, the Trump campaign’s lawyers admitted, “Petitioners do not allege, and there is no evidence of, fraud in connection with the challenged ballots.”

The lawyers also stated there was no evidence of any “misconduct” or “impropriety” in the election.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/us/politics/trump-election-lawsuits.html but it's a roundup of other sources -- the Michigan kerfuffle was intitally from powerlineblog!

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Again, as for me problem is not US voting system itself (with all its imperfections, it was functioning in much harder times than now). I think real problem is growing society divide – almost to “one state, two nations” situation. As result, any outcome provided by any electoral system, even perfect one, will not be accepted by one (or both) side(s).

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9 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Again, as for me problem is not US voting system itself (with all its imperfections, it was functioning in much harder times than now). I think real problem is growing society divide – almost to “one state, two nations” situation. As result, any outcome provided by any electoral system, even perfect one, will not be accepted by one (or both) side(s).

I completely agree. 

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4 hours ago, nitflegal said:

 

However I also really fear the results if there if fraud and it is exposed and it does flip the election. That is such a volatile political bomb that we will see massive and irreversible changes to our country.  I suspect many of those will be unexpected or unwelcome.  

If the results overturn, we'll get this.  The infrastructure is already there.  And it'll be all but sanctioned by a major political party. 

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Sure, it's Trump's fault. Is there anything that man can't do?

We had to suffer four years of Russia baloney and you didn't complain about the climate of the forum, except when we debated the facts back. How dare we!

It couldn't possibly be the years of Google security warnings.

It couldn't possibly be the "We've already covered that topic, dummkopf" responses in the military forums.

The answer to the FFZ giving members the vapors is to not come here. Spend your time in the other forums.

We will not be silent because some people think hearing alternate facts is too disturbing.

Also, reddit and facebook have destroyed a lot of forums.  Forums are considered "old tech" by the kids these days.  Plus, a few key members of this site died.

I came back because I hate reddit and fb.  This is like the old neighborhood bar vs the student union or town square.

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12 minutes ago, Brian Kennedy said:

I completely agree. 

Oh, I'm certain accusations of fraud by losing camps would continue for probably a generation or so because it has become part of political culture. And on that note, yeah, the basic poison remains the hyperpolarization of American society. Though election reform would be a sign that it's being tackled, since it can really only be done in a bipartisan effort, itself requiring acceptance that it will not just be for the benefit of your own side - but it's not the end of the nation if you don't always win. 

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55 minutes ago, Jeff said:

We will not be silent because some people think hearing alternate facts is too disturbing.

It's not disturbing, just makes you look crazy. 

 

47 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I'd probably be more tolerant if some of them didn't continually repeat easily disproved lies, and pretend there is no real truth anymore. There are many here who subscribe to that kind of bs because it's newly fashionable, and nobody here has the excuse of being stupid enough to embrace it.

As I said before, this ship has sailed. 80% of Trump voters in the US are convinced Biden won the election through wide-spread election-fraud. What you see on this site is just the mainstream opinion among Republicans these days.

And it's not even new, TankNet also had the same users repeating Obama birther conspiracy theories for years. 

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