Because Trump 2.0

[rmgill]

 

[DKTanker]

2 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

But the part that wasn't due to Trump was that the cartels were at the point of taking over the border, so no much choice, really 

That's been going on for decades and I believe it was Trump that told Mexico to take care of their problems along the border or he would.  So yeah, there was a choice and Trump made one.

[Brian Kennedy]

4 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Certainly what his base wanted him to do. Maybe not building the wall and make Mexico pay for it, or killing Obamacare; but cutting taxes, putting conservative judges on the federal bench including the Supreme Court, reducing foreign military deployments, removing the US from international organizations and "bad deals", launching trade wars with "unfair competitors", and generally playing to any random right-wing instinct. Mind, those politics might not be successful, or even benefit his supporters or America in the longer view; as I noted earlier, while he may be a symptom rather than the cause, he definitely has pulled out all the stops in the downhill ride which domestic political culture has sent the US on for some time. But for the purpose of this election, all that is needed is that he fulfilled the expectations of those who voted for him. 

I think that’s about right. Honestly if I was hardcore right wing I’d see no reason whatsoever to not vote for Trump. (An interesting counterfactual would be what if Trump ran as a Democrat, which prior to all his Birther stuff wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility, and toed the line on all Dem policy positions — Dems wouldn’t change their votes either just because he’s an incompetent asshole). 

i know i keep bringing this up ad nauseum, but the real tipping point was Trump winning the Republican primary, not anything that followed. 

[Tim the Tank Nut]

Except that Trump has been above reproach with his appointments to the Supreme Court.

The Republicans that are against Trump are against him more because he disrupts their political gravy train than on any legitimate principal.  Does anyone take George Will or Peggy Noonan seriously anymore?

[DKTanker]

23 minutes ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

Except that Trump has been above reproach with his appointments to the Supreme Court.

The Republicans that are against Trump are against him more because he disrupts their political gravy train than on any legitimate principal.  Does anyone take George Will or Peggy Noonan seriously anymore?

I think the NeverTrumper Republicans that are against him are also against his SCOTUS appointments.  They would rather see the likes of John Paul Stevens, David Souter, and John Roberts than Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett.

And you're right about Will and Noonan, as well as Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes and every other Republican that is throwing in with the Marxist left rather than supporting Trump.  This would also include those that continually attack Trump in an attempt to dampen enthusiasm while ignoring trespasses from the Left.   I don't see how they can credibly return to the right.  They've staked out their claim on the left side of the fence, they need to own it.

[Stargrunt6]

That campaign with the Fauci quote was low.  Very tasteless.  

[Murph]

7 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

That campaign with the Fauci quote was low.  Very tasteless.  

I missed that.

[Skywalkre]

I think he means this one released by the Trump campaign:

Fauci has come out and said his quote was taken out of context (he wasn't referring to Trump in it).

The whole Fauci thing with the Trump campaign is fascinating... all summer I thought he was one of the bad guys.  Hell, look at what many of you were posting about him for most of the last few months.  Yet in both debates Trump and Pence name-dropped him to gain some cred with their handling of the pandemic and now this ad uses him as well.  I guess he wasn't the bad guy after all. 

[Stargrunt6]

14 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

I think he means this one released by the Trump campaign:

Fauci has come out and said his quote was taken out of context (he wasn't referring to Trump in it).

The whole Fauci thing with the Trump campaign is fascinating... all summer I thought he was one of the bad guys.  Hell, look at what many of you were posting about him for most of the last few months.  Yet in both debates Trump and Pence name-dropped him to gain some cred with their handling of the pandemic and now this ad uses him as well.  I guess he wasn't the bad guy after all. 

Is there any real animosity between Trump and Fauci? That seems to be fictional for the sake of compelling drama.  

[Skywalkre]

10 minutes ago, Stargrunt6 said:

Is there any real animosity between Trump and Fauci? That seems to be fictional for the sake of compelling drama.  

Fauci has always stated no.  Trump and the WH have had conflicting comments in regards to that subject.

As for supporters of Trump, including here on TN, there have been countless attacks on Fauci over the course of the Pandemic.

[MiloMorai]

This is what Fauci said:

“Well, we’ve never had a threat like this, and the coordinated response has been — there are a number of adjectives to describe it. Impressive, I think, is one of them. I mean, we’re talking about all hands on deck. I, as one of many people on a team — I’m not the only person — since the beginning that we even recognized what this was, I have been devoting almost full time on this, almost full time. I’m down at the White House virtually every day with the task force. I’m connected by phone throughout the day and into the night. When I say night, I’m talking 12, 1, 2 in the morning. I’m not the only one. There’s a whole group of us that are doing that. It’s every single day. So, I can’t imagine that, under any circumstances, that anybody could be doing more.”

[Ivanhoe]

4 hours ago, DKTanker said:

And you're right about Will and Noonan, as well as Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes and every other Republican that is throwing in with the Marxist left rather than supporting Trump.  This would also include those that continually attack Trump in an attempt to dampen enthusiasm while ignoring trespasses from the Left.   I don't see how they can credibly return to the right.  They've staked out their claim on the left side of the fence, they need to own it.

The sad thing is that the NeverTrumpers have, for the most part, thrown integrity out the window.

I would be fine if they presented objective critiques. That doesn't seem to be in the cards.

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

Fauci has come out and said his quote was taken out of context (he wasn't referring to Trump in it).

The whole Fauci thing with the Trump campaign is fascinating... all summer I thought he was one of the bad guys.  Hell, look at what many of you were posting about him for most of the last few months.  Yet in both debates Trump and Pence name-dropped him to gain some cred with their handling of the pandemic and now this ad uses him as well.  I guess he wasn't the bad guy after all. 

Well, if he's referring to the federal government's action on this, well then that falls to Trump. If the Fed.Gov WAS fucking up totally well, that'd be Trump too right? 

Of course that Good/Bad guy thing....we see that in spades from the left too. Remember when Harris said Joe was a sexual predator and a racist?  I sure do. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, rmgill said:

Well, if he's referring to the federal government's action on this, well then that falls to Trump. If the Fed.Gov WAS fucking up totally well, that'd be Trump too right? 

Of course that Good/Bad guy thing....we see that in spades from the left too. Remember when Harris said Joe was a sexual predator and a racist?  I sure do. 

Nobody held a gun against his head and forced him to take the job. Stop feeling sorry for him and pretending he is hard done by. Biden is going to get reamed in similar fashion, particularly when he cannot get the pandemic under control.

 

[Murph]

Yep, she is a real winner.  Always picking the loser, and somehow making millions from it.  

 

[bojan]

Face of that cat...

[nitflegal]

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Nobody held a gun against his head and forced him to take the job. Stop feeling sorry for him and pretending he is hard done by. Biden is going to get reamed in similar fashion, particularly when he cannot get the pandemic under control.

 

I sincerely hope that you are right because it would indicate that the president will be held firmly accountable by the media and the public when in office.  I will confess I don't believe it; there has been too much shifting of goal posts for Democrats.  To wit, Trump gets condemned in the media and not solely in opinion sections for all 200,000 Covid deaths.  over 3 per cent of these deaths are directly attributable to the nursing home decision of Gov Cuomo who is not getting roasted on a daily basis, is publishing a book on how well he handled the pandemic (and is giving soft ball interviews about it), and has had very few challenging interviews.  He made an overt decision that killed over 6,000 people and further avoided the lockdown after Trump called for them and gets a pass.  If Biden wins let's circle around in the spring and I will put money that the news reports about Covid will downplay its significance even if the statistics haven't moved.  I expect multiple news reports about how on top of it he is, how science is now the God of decision making, reports will focus on fatality rates instead of the current focus on positive tests (note we are at 1/3 the fatalities of August and 1/6 the fatalities of April).  

[Stuart Galbraith]

27 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

I sincerely hope that you are right because it would indicate that the president will be held firmly accountable by the media and the public when in office.  I will confess I don't believe it; there has been too much shifting of goal posts for Democrats.  To wit, Trump gets condemned in the media and not solely in opinion sections for all 200,000 Covid deaths.  over 3 per cent of these deaths are directly attributable to the nursing home decision of Gov Cuomo who is not getting roasted on a daily basis, is publishing a book on how well he handled the pandemic (and is giving soft ball interviews about it), and has had very few challenging interviews.  He made an overt decision that killed over 6,000 people and further avoided the lockdown after Trump called for them and gets a pass.  If Biden wins let's circle around in the spring and I will put money that the news reports about Covid will downplay its significance even if the statistics haven't moved.  I expect multiple news reports about how on top of it he is, how science is now the God of decision making, reports will focus on fatality rates instead of the current focus on positive tests (note we are at 1/3 the fatalities of August and 1/6 the fatalities of April).  

I think, and this is just a personal view, the nature of media has changed. Its now increasingly devolving to individuals. Twitter feeds, youtube channels, facebook pages. The kind of thing that got Trump elected. I dont think that is going to change just because Biden gets in the White House. In fact, I would argue that this all started during Obama's second term. It doesnt seem unlikely to me that the same tools that were turned on him are going to be swfitly turned on Biden.

Not just by the right, by the left too, because it strikes me as inevitable he is going to piss on the far left, to the point where they are swiftly going to wonder if they got a Republican President after all. Or if he doesnt choose to alienate the far left (I think he will, but lets pretend he doesnt) but get in bed with them, he is going to be urinating on the middle left. The honeymoon will soon be over in any case when it becomes evident that the only thing that will get the pandemic under control will be a vaccine. We are going to be in free fall until that point comes.

 

As far as the mainstream media, I think Trump when he first came into office and set out to alienate them, and overlooked they still have a latent power. Its exactly the same mistake Nixon made. Nobody expects Trump to be friends with the media, but underlining every day how much of an enemy they are, and then being delivered into negative headlines, he surely cannot have expected much different. One of his first press conferences, he put CNN and BBC on notice, and was surprised at how vitriolic they responded in their coverage. Its one more reason why I think at heart he is just a bit thick.

 

Cuomo got away with his mistakes because his brother is a CNN anchor (A pretty good one in fairness), and because he could hide behind the evident failure of the mayor of New York. Biden, nor Harris, has either of those advantages. 

[nitflegal]

12 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I think, and this is just a personal view, the nature of media has changed. Its now increasingly devolving to individuals. Twitter feeds, youtube channels, facebook pages. The kind of thing that got Trump elected. I dont think that is going to change just because Biden gets in the White House. In fact, I would argue that this all started during Obama's second term. It doesnt seem unlikely to me that the same tools that were turned on him are going to be swfitly turned on Biden.

Not just by the right, by the left too, because it strikes me as inevitable he is going to piss on the far left, to the point where they are swiftly going to wonder if they got a Republican President after all. Or if he doesnt choose to alienate the far left (I think he will, but lets pretend he doesnt) but get in bed with them, he is going to be urinating on the middle left. The honeymoon will soon be over in any case when it becomes evident that the only thing that will get the pandemic under control will be a vaccine. We are going to be in free fall until that point comes.

 

As far as the mainstream media, I think Trump when he first came into office and set out to alienate them, and overlooked they still have a latent power. Its exactly the same mistake Nixon made. Nobody expects Trump to be friends with the media, but underlining every day how much of an enemy they are, and then being delivered into negative headlines, he surely cannot have expected much different. One of his first press conferences, he put CNN and BBC on notice, and was surprised at how vitriolic they responded in their coverage. Its one more reason why I think at heart he is just a bit thick.

 

Cuomo got away with his mistakes because his brother is a CNN anchor (A pretty good one in fairness), and because he could hide behind the evident failure of the mayor of New York. Biden, nor Harris, has either of those advantages. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I sincerely hope that you are right.  However, regarding Biden has he been hammered about not replenishing the PPE stockpiles and for the Obama administration halting maintenance on our emergency ventilator supply?  Trump has taken plenty of justifiable heat for not correcting this but he isn't the one who depleted out the stocks and didn't replace them when initially depleted.  Has Biden been hammered for arguing against Trump's quarantine of China back when this started?  Has he been pressed on the fact that his Covid response plan combines being vague with doing the same damned things Trump is doing?  I have seen very little of any of this and since he is likely to win it seems like something the public probably ought to know before they vote.  If they aren't holding him accountable as a candidate why should we believe that they will start doing it in January?

[Stuart Galbraith]

No, I know you are not. I probably come across as overly aggressive myself, its a knack that after 20 years of posting i really should have cracked that by now.

 

No, he hasnt faced that, and of course the Republicans are entirely in the right to point that out. From what ive read, they had gone some way to replenishing the stockpile, but that it was not fully up to the levels required (I guess you would know more about that than us). And the mess that the CDC is in (not that it excuses Biden or Obama for not fixing it) is down to it being put under Homeland Security in the aftermath of 911, rather than enjoying the freebooting status and free reporting to the President it once enjoyed. It points to the requirement of a bloody good inquiry to determine how things got so bad this year. Although as both political parties have skin in the game, I daresay there will not. They all have too much to lose.

Yeah you are right, they havent talked about Biden talking about keeping links open with China. There was a lot of Democrats that argued against cutting ties with China. OTOH, its not unreasonable to point out that neither they, not the Republicans, also demanded closing down routes to Europe as well, which as far as New York was more important.

 

The point is, if Trump was halfway competent, all these arguments would be being made already, incessently. The media would have to address them. But he isn't making them. In fact he isnt doing much at all other than proving he is still alive for people to vote for. He even denied himself a debate where he could make the assertions directly. Why? Because he is no master of detail, and prefers to go into ad homineml attacks than rightly pointing out failings as long as his arm. He could easily beat Biden, but he wont. It would require him to be a different candidate.

 

I think these points are going to come up as the pandemic rolls on.  The suggestion has been we are looking at about 4 years before there is enough vaccine to cure it globally. There is plenty of time for recriminations yet. And I think these questions are going to increasingly asked by alternative media sources, even if the mainstream media wont.

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[BansheeOne]

18 hours ago, Brian Kennedy said:

(An interesting counterfactual would be what if Trump ran as a Democrat, which prior to all his Birther stuff wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility, and toed the line on all Dem policy positions — Dems wouldn’t change their votes either just because he’s an incompetent asshole). 

Not impossible at all, and I thought about that a couple times. By all accounts, citizen Trump was a bog standard NYC liberal socially, who couldn't care less about abortions, sexual preferences etc., and his endorsement of conservative policy on those issues is largely opportunistic.

OTOH, some of Trump's (POTUS, D) policies might have looked pretty much the same as they do now (or for that matter those of a President Bernie), and gotten him elected by some of the same voters. Anti-globalism was (and still is) a left-wing thing before it became a right-wing thing; see ATTAC. Same for anti-elitism, anti-interventionism, etc. In the end, disappointment about the results of policies under the previous two-three administrations had prepared the stage for some sort of populist to win over the real or self-perceived losers for one camp, either left or right. 

[Ivanhoe]

2 hours ago, nitflegal said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I sincerely hope that you are right.  However, regarding Biden has he been hammered about not replenishing the PPE stockpiles and for the Obama administration halting maintenance on our emergency ventilator supply? 

Didn't the PPACA tax on medical devices and supplies drive most manufacturing of consumables (including PPE) to China?

 

[nitflegal]

8 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

Didn't the PPACA tax on medical devices and supplies drive most manufacturing of consumables (including PPE) to China?

 

I'm not an expert but I don't think it had a significant impact on PPE production.  That has been outsourcing to China for years simply because of cost savings and every hospital and research institution has admin types who are desperate to cut any funds from their budgets.  I will give Trump a fair amount of credit for being so vocal before the pandemic about how stupid it was to outsource critical infrastructure manufacturing to an adversary if not enemy.

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Nobody held a gun against his head and forced him to take the job. Stop feeling sorry for him and pretending he is hard done by. Biden is going to get reamed in similar fashion, particularly when he cannot get the pandemic under control.

 

Read what Ryan said again. If the effort was as good as it could be then the man responsible for taking all the advice and making final decisions gets the credit or the blame for those decisions. No one's asking for sympathy. Biden would not have been reamed if he were president. Trump's first major action was cutting off Chinese travel against advice and was called a racist and xenophobe by Biden and the Left for it.

[Jeff]