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Are the north koreans really led by nutcases? Never underestimate the enemy. It is an actually pretty reasonable course of action to acquire nuclear weapons to be safe from an american invasion. From ther perspective nuclear weapons to safeguard the existence of the democratic people's republic makes a lot of sense.

they are smart psychopaths. just check the execution methods.

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And yeah, deterrence is a Soviet Union, PRC level policy. If the USA has to start using that tool on a friggin nutcase dictator whose country is defined by looking wholly dark from space, pray to your God if you have it because the pussying has enveloped a once manly nation and no good can come from that.

That's bullshit. None of this is new.

 

Learn about the history of the Chinese nuclear program and US efforts to stop it at the beginning of the 60s. You had the same reasoning back then like today, "nutcase", "crazy", "unpredictable", "deterrence won't work against them".

 

 

I don't need to learn any field of expertise in which you have the advantage. I just need to check, on a map, the sheer size of China as a nation since ever, and compare it to the frigging tiny Starvestan above South Korea. Heck without the million screaming china-men in 1953 we wouldn't even have NK, we´d have just Korea. Grape vs. watermelon, no way in hell you can sell me an equivalence between NK and PRC ever, in the 60s or now.

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FCS have people learned nothing from a century of dealing with communist/populist megalomaniacs of many different brands? Hasn't been shown, time and time again, that their reckless pushing is a feature, not a bug? Are people so hellbent on undermining the USA that they would so facetiously put forward appeasement policies that everybody and their mommy knows don't work? Jeebus Chrysler, grow some gonads and join Al-Qaeda, it would be so less infuriating.

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I mean yes, maybe he will will capitulate just like Obama did every time he faced a crisis. Somehow, my gut feeling says he wont.

 

His ego wont let him, but at least his ego is doing the job of a spine.

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FCS have people learned nothing from a century of dealing with communist/populist megalomaniacs of many different brands? Hasn't been shown, time and time again, that their reckless pushing is a feature, not a bug? Are people so hellbent on undermining the USA that they would so facetiously put forward appeasement policies that everybody and their mommy knows don't work? Jeebus Chrysler, grow some gonads and join Al-Qaeda, it would be so less infuriating.

 

Shooting back in a proportionate way is not appeasement. When we faced the Soviet Union, I don't recall a lot of relentless pushing and I don't recall us going nuclear after they shot the odd spy plane down. They actually pulled back out of Manchuria, Austria, parts of Finland etc. and were kicked out of other places - Albania, Egypt, Romania et al. They eventually collapsed inwardly. China's relentless pushing last resulted in territorial gains in 1958 against an essentially defenceless country. They haven't gained any territory from any nation able to put up more than token resistance. I don't recall Cuba invading anywhere (though they had troops in Angola). When sections of the West believed in relentless Communist pushing - the so called "domino theory" - it got it into a bit of a pickle. Genital or otherwise anatomical metaphors are not going to help.

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I mean yes, maybe he will will capitulate just like Obama did every time he faced a crisis. Somehow, my gut feeling says he wont.

 

His ego wont let him, but at least his ego is doing the job of a spine.

:D

Hey i don't worship the guy, i harbor no ilusions about him. I have his size to the nth. I know what bull we got, horns, warts and all.

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FCS have people learned nothing from a century of dealing with communist/populist megalomaniacs of many different brands? Hasn't been shown, time and time again, that their reckless pushing is a feature, not a bug? Are people so hellbent on undermining the USA that they would so facetiously put forward appeasement policies that everybody and their mommy knows don't work? Jeebus Chrysler, grow some gonads and join Al-Qaeda, it would be so less infuriating.

 

Shooting back in a proportionate way is not appeasement. When we faced the Soviet Union, I don't recall a lot of relentless pushing and I don't recall us going nuclear after they shot the odd spy plane down. They actually pulled back out of Manchuria, Austria, parts of Finland etc. and were kicked out of other places - Albania, Egypt, Romania et al. They eventually collapsed inwardly. China's relentless pushing last resulted in territorial gains in 1958 against an essentially defenceless country. They haven't gained any territory from any nation able to put up more than token resistance. I don't recall Cuba invading anywhere (though they had troops in Angola). When sections of the West believed in relentless Communist pushing - the so called "domino theory" - it got it into a bit of a pickle. Genital or otherwise anatomical metaphors are not going to help.

If i have to explain again why NK nowadays is not the same as the East Bloc or PRC, im gonna have a scrotal vascular incident, what that for a genital figure of speach

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Bottom line is this, with today's news that your Orange Messiah is now threatening to use military force against Venezuela

 

I had hoped this was a slip and you meant NK. Went and checked the web and... nope, you were right. The wires are blowing up with this right now. FFS... /facepalm

 

Yeah, but this was expected. Maduro went ahead with the constituent assembly, jailed the opposition designated Supreme Court and had been warned not to continue in his antics. He continued. This is neither irresponsible or reckless by Trump.

 

How can you say that? What's the point of threatening military action when there's zero reason to believe we could do anything militarily to make positive change in Venezuela?

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The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

They've HAD sweet deals over the years. REPEATEDLY. They pull out the saber rattling every so often to get us back to the table to offer them more free shit to quiet down.

 

Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

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The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

They've HAD sweet deals over the years. REPEATEDLY. They pull out the saber rattling every so often to get us back to the table to offer them more free shit to quiet down.

 

Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

 

I don't have a problem with NK's words I have a problem with them having ICBM deliverable nukes. Ignoring that will NOT solve anything.

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The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

 

They've HAD sweet deals over the years. REPEATEDLY. They pull out the saber rattling every so often to get us back to the table to offer them more free shit to quiet down.

Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

The US can't ignore them if the US has 28,000 American soldiers in ROK. Should the US just pack up and go home? Was it a mistake for the US to have saved ROK from communist invasion in 1950 and was it a mistake to stay in the war when the Chinese communist intervened?

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Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

The pattern has been they do some border violence, make some threats, they get people paying attention to them and they get some more free stuff.

 

It's almost like the bum who knows that if he harasses your neighbors he can get you to give him a meal, a shower and some extra spending money so he can go buy some booze.

 

Now he has a gun and is harassing you and your neighbors.

 

Obviously ignoring him is exactly what you should do.

 

Avert your eyes and don't challenge him, make sure you show a submissive posture. IS that what you'd do in a situation like that Dave?

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The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

 

They've HAD sweet deals over the years. REPEATEDLY. They pull out the saber rattling every so often to get us back to the table to offer them more free shit to quiet down.

Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

This now is an uppity pawn about to crown itself. Too ugly

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I mean yes, maybe he will will capitulate just like Obama did every time he faced a crisis. Somehow, my gut feeling says he wont.

His ego wont let him, but at least his ego is doing the job of a spine.

:D

Hey i don't worship the guy, i harbor no ilusions about him. I have his size to the nth. I know what bull we got, horns, warts and all.

 

 

Actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. His own pride wont allow him to back away from making a commitment. We see him continuing to pursue domestic policies he knows that have no hope of passing because, well, because he is Trump and because he said he would do it.

 

If you are living on Guam, I can see why this would be a distinct comfort.

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The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

They've HAD sweet deals over the years. REPEATEDLY. They pull out the saber rattling every so often to get us back to the table to offer them more free shit to quiet down.
Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

The US can't ignore them if the US has 28,000 American soldiers in ROK. Should the US just pack up and go home? Was it a mistake for the US to have saved ROK from communist invasion in 1950 and was it a mistake to stay in the war when the Chinese communist intervened?

 

The problem is there is a mindset in American politics now that would say, yes it was a mistake to save them, because they lose US Jobs to them. Its a trend that makes America's greatest accomplishments, whether its landing on the moon, the defeat of fascism, communism, or just plain free market economics, are all a bad idea, and frankly shouldn't have happened.

 

There is no answer to it other than reflecting on what America would look like right now if it hadnt done any of those things. In fact we already know. Look at what the result has been from not showing adequate resolve to North Korea because it wasn't important enough. People DID ignore it. Thats why they now have intercontinental missiles that can hit the CONUS. The idea that, founding fathers style, America can withdraw into itself and live in pleasant isolation is a fiction that has not departed yet. IT wasn't true in WW1, it wasn't True in WW2, and sure as hell its not true in the age of the Internet or the Ballistic missile.

 

Top and bottom of it, America is the most reluctant Empire in history. Which is why, by and large, its actually been pretty damn good at it.

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The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

 

They've HAD sweet deals over the years. REPEATEDLY. They pull out the saber rattling every so often to get us back to the table to offer them more free shit to quiet down.
Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

The US can't ignore them if the US has 28,000 American soldiers in ROK. Should the US just pack up and go home? Was it a mistake for the US to have saved ROK from communist invasion in 1950 and was it a mistake to stay in the war when the Chinese communist intervened?

The problem is there is a mindset in American politics now that would say, yes it was a mistake to save them, because they lose US Jobs to them. Its a trend that makes America's greatest accomplishments, whether its landing on the moon, the defeat of fascism, communism, or just plain free market economics, are all a bad idea, and frankly shouldn't have happened.

 

There is no answer to it other than reflecting on what America would look like right now if it hadnt done any of those things. In fact we already know. Look at what the result has been from not showing adequate resolve to North Korea because it wasn't important enough. People DID ignore it. Thats why they now have intercontinental missiles that can hit the CONUS. The idea that, founding fathers style, America can withdraw into itself and live in pleasant isolation is a fiction that has not departed yet. IT wasn't true in WW1, it wasn't True in WW2, and sure as hell its not true in the age of the Internet or the Ballistic missile.

 

Top and bottom of it, America is the most reluctant Empire in history. Which is why, by and large, its actually been pretty damn good at it.

I reckon the Iraq occupation deepened the sense of reluctance and isolation. They were not able to take back a sense of pride and achievement with it. And the whole undertaken was highly questionable. Probably similar with the Vietnam War but the US was probably able to recover morale with winning the Cold War and outstanding performance in the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

 

There has to be desire to stand up for its interest in the outer areas. US population often is isolationist feeling. The two big oceans is probably a reason for it. But US leadership understand the rules of great power politics and the tremendous size and amount of resources on the main land enables it to use that power and participate for its sake, which is perfectly to be expected, in the geopolitical realm. In fact as early as Jefferson understood the benefits of becoming bigger with having no major neighbors with the purchase of the Louisiana territory. And then the subsequent push westwards and the purchase of Alaska. Naturally capable population is also necessary. Not all nations of people could have made effective use of all those natural resources and develop the massive industries of oil, steel, cars, radios, and so on. The combination of naturally occurring feeling of isolation and natural geographic security with such tremendous amount of resources is quite a rare combination. So it makes it favorable for many smaller countries to accept as it as an overhead ruling power. US "freedom" traits further help that.

 

Actually I think the US could probably have done OK by being isolationist the whole way straight through. But it takes both recognition of great power politics and a desire to succeed in it to push out further onto the other sides of the two big oceans. If the US didn't, they probably would be OK if they kept up defenses and supremacy at both ends of the oceans. But that prospect is certainly more risky for America's security than being more active and engaging on the other sides of the oceans. As has been seen by the possibility of a Germany dominated Europe, Italian dominated Mediterranean and North Africa and a Japan dominated Asia. With those two countries in an alliance, America would have been number 2 to it and over the long term, might start to get marginalized by it. So engaging on the other sides of the oceans is certainly better for it.

 

With that said, I think many people, even after being told, still don't register how North Korea is part of the grander geopolitics competition between China and the US. It's that naturally occurring isolationist tendency that is unable to detect it. But following what US generals and various leaders and think tanks talk and seeing the activities of the US military, it's quite clear that US leadership still recognizes and engages in the great power politics realm. Interestingly, with this whole North Korea thing going on right now and the apparent need to get China to cooperate, the US still conducted a FONOPs at one of China's man-made islands a couple of days ago. A message that to me seems like the US is saying that while we want your cooperation on North Korea, don't expect any grand bargain regarding the South China Sea.

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Too late, the lie has gotten round the world and the truth is just getting its pants on.

 

From that rightwing rag The Nation:

 

There was no hack of the Democratic National Committee’s system on July 5 last year—not by the Russians, not by anyone else. Hard science now demonstrates it was a leak—a download executed locally with a memory key or a similarly portable data-storage device. In short, it was an inside job by someone with access to the DNC’s system. This casts serious doubt on the initial “hack,” as alleged, that led to the very consequential publication of a large store of documents on WikiLeaks last summer.

 

Forensic investigations of documents made public two weeks prior to the July 5 leak by the person or entity known as Guccifer 2.0 show that they were fraudulent: Before Guccifer posted them they were adulterated by cutting and pasting them into a blank template that had Russian as its default language. Guccifer took responsibility on June 15 for an intrusion the DNC reported on June 14 and professed to be a WikiLeaks source—claims essential to the official narrative implicating Russia in what was soon cast as an extensive hacking operation. To put the point simply, forensic science now devastates this narrative.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

 

 

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Too late, the lie has gotten round the world and the truth is just getting its pants on.

 

From that rightwing rag The Nation:

 

There was no hack of the Democratic National Committee’s system on July 5 last year—not by the Russians, not by anyone else. Hard science now demonstrates it was a leak—a download executed locally with a memory key or a similarly portable data-storage device. In short, it was an inside job by someone with access to the DNC’s system. This casts serious doubt on the initial “hack,” as alleged, that led to the very consequential publication of a large store of documents on WikiLeaks last summer.

 

Forensic investigations of documents made public two weeks prior to the July 5 leak by the person or entity known as Guccifer 2.0 show that they were fraudulent: Before Guccifer posted them they were adulterated by cutting and pasting them into a blank template that had Russian as its default language. Guccifer took responsibility on June 15 for an intrusion the DNC reported on June 14 and professed to be a WikiLeaks source—claims essential to the official narrative implicating Russia in what was soon cast as an extensive hacking operation. To put the point simply, forensic science now devastates this narrative.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

 

 

The article scuttles the GREATEST of DNC lies & one of the banners at the top of the page ironically says, 'fight back against His Lies";

 

ANYWAY, for a while people have been saying the DNC leaks were from disgruntled Bernie supporters in The DNC

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Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them.

 

Trump and Kim, brothers from another mother, are already negotiating by proxy at this point.

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Exactly, and now they have the self-professed king deal maker almost ready to do the biggliest most awesome business deal with them. Could have ignored them 20 years ago. Could have ignored them 10 years ago. Should be ignoring them right now. And by ignore I mean utterly dismiss them, waste not one night sleep worrying about their bluster, because that's exactly what they want, for others to worry about them.

The pattern has been they do some border violence, make some threats, they get people paying attention to them and they get some more free stuff.

 

It's almost like the bum who knows that if he harasses your neighbors he can get you to give him a meal, a shower and some extra spending money so he can go buy some booze.

 

Now he has a gun and is harassing you and your neighbors.

 

Obviously ignoring him is exactly what you should do.

 

Avert your eyes and don't challenge him, make sure you show a submissive posture. IS that what you'd do in a situation like that Dave?

 

When a five year old throws a tempter tantrum, I don't know what you do, but I don't stoop to their level. When a tinpot dictator bangs his drum demanding attention, were I the MFIC, I wouldn't give him the satisfaction of paying attention to him. In the history of nuclear warfare only two nations have made public threats of using them and only one of those two has actually used them. Why do you suppose nations such as USSR now Russia, Great Britain, France, Israel, China, Pakistan, and India never thought they had to make public threats of using nuclear weapons on their geo-policital foes? Compare and contrast to the nutcase on the Korean peninsula and the nutcase at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

 

A bit over 20 years ago Clinton paid NK $4 Billion to not build nukes, so that's exactly what NK did, they built nukes. How much do you suppose Agent Orange will pay NK to give up their nukes? Much as you may want it to happen we both know your nutcase in chief won't be launching any type of military strike against NK, much less a nuclear strike. So what will be the payoff be this time around?

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