Because Trump 2.0

[rmgill]

So, if the Norks fire a missile towards an ally or possession? You ignore it?

Edited August 12, 2017 by rmgill

[Der Zeitgeist]

 

 

So, if the Norks fire a missile towards an ally or possession? You ignore it?

 

Sure. They've been firing missiles into the Pacific for the last 20 years now, crying for attention.

 

As I said, stop playing their game, and let deterrence handle it.

[toysoldier]

what deterrence? what deterred them from what? what deterred them from getting a nuke? what deterred them from putting it on a rocket?

Gee, everybody is so hellbent on letting friggin dictators have their way. No scalashun! muh deterrence!

[DKTanker]

 

 

Strong talk towards the NORKS designed to cow them seems appropriate. Soft talk invites attack.

What attacks?

Oh, I don't know, being nice about cutting trees down. Border crossing incidents. At what point does acts of war foment war?

 

I see, so an incident that took place 40 years ago is grounds for a redemptive nuclear strike now? I now understand why you so ardently support the Nutcase in Chief.

Edited August 12, 2017 by DKTanker

[Der Zeitgeist]

 

 

what deterrence? what deterred them from what? what deterred them from getting a nuke? what deterred them from putting it on a rocket? Gee, everybody is so hellbent on letting friggin dictators have their way. No scalashun! muh deterrence!

 

So, what would you suggest?

 

BTW, deterrence is the thing that kept you from being vaporized by Russian and Chinese nuclear weapons so far.

[toysoldier]

 

 

what deterrence? what deterred them from what? what deterred them from getting a nuke? what deterred them from putting it on a rocket? Gee, everybody is so hellbent on letting friggin dictators have their way. No scalashun! muh deterrence!

So, what would you suggest?

 

BTW, deterrence is the thing that kept you from being vaporized by Russian and Chinese nuclear weapons so far.

Harsh talk is a diplomatic weapon as good as any other. It worked for Castro, so.

And yeah, deterrence is a Soviet Union, PRC level policy. If the USA has to start using that tool on a friggin nutcase dictator whose country is defined by looking wholly dark from space, pray to your God if you have it because the pussying has enveloped a once manly nation and no good can come from that.

[Panzermann]

Are the north koreans really led by nutcases? Never underestimate the enemy. It is an actually pretty reasonable course of action to acquire nuclear weapons to be safe from an american invasion. From ther perspective nuclear weapons to safeguard the existence of the democratic people's republic makes a lot of sense.

[Der Zeitgeist]

And yeah, deterrence is a Soviet Union, PRC level policy. If the USA has to start using that tool on a friggin nutcase dictator whose country is defined by looking wholly dark from space, pray to your God if you have it because the pussying has enveloped a once manly nation and no good can come from that.

That's bullshit. None of this is new.

 

Learn about the history of the Chinese nuclear program and US efforts to stop it at the beginning of the 60s. You had the same reasoning back then like today, "nutcase", "crazy", "unpredictable", "deterrence won't work against them".

Edited August 12, 2017 by Der Zeitgeist

[JasonJ]

 

And yeah, deterrence is a Soviet Union, PRC level policy. If the USA has to start using that tool on a friggin nutcase dictator whose country is defined by looking wholly dark from space, pray to your God if you have it because the pussying has enveloped a once manly nation and no good can come from that.

That's bullshit. None of this is new.

 

Learn about the history of the Chinese nuclear program and US efforts to stop it at the beginning of the 60s. You had the same reasoning back then like today, "nutcase", "crazy", "unpredictable", "deterrence won't work against them".

 

 

Sometimes an argument is supported because there is a precedent for what the arguments says. But the proliferation of nuclear weapons is not one of those things that should be supported or accepted because of there being a precedent. For each country that has nuclear weapons requires a whole system of professionals and scientists for the proper care and handling of the nuclear arsenal. And the special kind of diplomatic relations would need to be giving in order to ensure that the arsenal does not fall into the wrong hands, either from the regime collapsing in the future at some point, or exported for geopolitical reasons. There's too much uncertainty and risk that goes way beyond calculation and control.

 

There is also a precedent for keeping the number of countries with nuclear weapons limited, such as Libya, Iraq, Kazakhstan, and the Ukraine. Even the ROK was looking into them at some point and KSA might still be teasing the idea. And Japan borders quite close to becoming nuclear power. Why should the Kim dynasty get special pardoning for becoming a nuclear power? If North Korea is successful, then it would embolden Iran, and risk a whole chain reaction of demand in other countries to become a nuclear power.

 

And to the complaints about Trump's use of words, does it really matter that much in this situation? Would Obama or Clinton inspire more confidence in this situation?

Edited August 12, 2017 by JasonJ

[Paul G.]

The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

[Paul G.]

Dupe...

 

Why play into their hands by giving the regime the enemy they need to legitimize themselves.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Paul G.

[JasonJ]

The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

Dupe...

 

Why play into their hands by giving the regime the enemy they need to legitimize themselves.

 

They have legitimized it to themselves for the whole past 25 years and already have fortified their position to continue development, regardless of soft talk or hard talk this year. And all the sunshine policies failed to stop it.

[Cinaruco]

 

 

 

Strong talk towards the NORKS designed to cow them seems appropriate. Soft talk invites attack.

 

What attacks?

Oh, I don't know, being nice about cutting trees down. Border crossing incidents. At what point does acts of war foment war?

I see, so an incident that took place 40 years ago is grounds for a redemptive nuclear strike now? I now understand why you so ardently support the Nutcase in Chief.

During the Obama tenure they sank a ROK warship and shelled territories.

 

Do people hate Trump that much that they would actually criticize him for giving them some tough talk?

[Cinaruco]

 

 

 

what deterrence? what deterred them from what? what deterred them from getting a nuke? what deterred them from putting it on a rocket? Gee, everybody is so hellbent on letting friggin dictators have their way. No scalashun! muh deterrence!

So, what would you suggest?

 

BTW, deterrence is the thing that kept you from being vaporized by Russian and Chinese nuclear weapons so far.

And they from our arsenal... the only reason the Soviets backed off from Cuba was because Kennedy went full madman against Krushev.

 

If you hate Trump special much that you would critisize him over a third worlder armed with an ICBM at a time when the physical integrity of the UScould be at risk, seek help.

[Markus Becker]

Are the north koreans really led by nutcases? Never underestimate the enemy. It is an actually pretty reasonable course of action to acquire nuclear weapons to be safe from an american invasion. From ther perspective nuclear weapons to safeguard the existence of the democratic people's republic makes a lot of sense.

 

The other way round makes more sense. If they hadn't nukes and long range missiles the USA would not have to worry about NK. Just another p... poor third world country one can ignore. And as far as deterrance in concerned, well over one million south Koreans live within range of 1950's 130mm and 152mm towed artillery guns. NK doesn't need more than SRBM and CW to be safe.

 

PS: Even if we assume NK is rational and wants the nukes and missiles because they think they need them for deterrance, there is still the matter that they sell the technology to Iran. And IOM that country is lead by religious nutcases times ten, the regime is unstable and the country is busy destabilizing an already instable region.

 

If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2001/011214-text.html

Edited August 12, 2017 by Markus Becker

[Cinaruco]

 

 

 

Bottom line is this, with today's news that your Orange Messiah is now threatening to use military force against Venezuela

 

I had hoped this was a slip and you meant NK. Went and checked the web and... nope, you were right. The wires are blowing up with this right now. FFS... /facepalm

Yeah, but this was expected. Maduro went ahead with the constituent assembly, jailed the opposition designated Supreme Court and had been warned not to continue in his antics. He continued. This is neither irresponsible or reckless by Trump.

Trump just handed Maduro his greatest propaganda gift. Instant justification for repression, without any costs.

What? Repression was already as hard as it could be... members of the National Assembly members jailed, thousands detained, torture of hundreds, nationwide raids in the night in opposition neighborhoods clearing entire residential buildings. There is a break within the military and the Chavis take stabliahment.

 

If anything the sanctions from both the OEA and the US are long overdue, for two separate factors. Maduro's popularity is bellow 20 percent, and even thone that remain do so out of Free Stuff dependence.

 

Second the sanctions are NOT against Venezuela, but against the assets of Venezuelans who took part on corruption and represión, by freezing or seizing assets they have on the evil empire in dollars.

 

That moment when you hate Trump so much you would defend dictators he critiques... the Trump derangement syndrome at its finest.

[rmgill]

I see, so an incident that took place 40 years ago is grounds for a redemptive nuclear strike now? I now understand why you so ardently support the Nutcase in Chief.

 

 

40 years ago...

 

 

1950s[edit]

• 16 February 1958: North Korean agents hijack a South Korean airliner to Pyongyang en route from Busan to Seoul; 1 American pilot, 1 American passenger, 2 West German passengers, and 24 other passengers were released in early March, but 8 other passengers remained in the North.^[7]

1960s[edit]

• 1964: North Korea creates an underground group: Revolutionary Party for Reunification, this group is ground down and eliminated by South Korean authorities by 1969.^[8]
• April 27, 1965: Two North Korean MiG-17s attack a United States EC-121 Warning Star reconnaissance plane above the Sea of Japan, 80 km (50 mi) from the North Korean shore. The aircraft was damaged, but managed to land at Yokota Air Base, Japan.^[9][10]
• October 1966–October 1969: The Korean DMZ Conflict, a series of skirmishes along the DMZ, results in 43 American, 299 South Korean and 397 North Korean soldiers killed.^[11]
• January 19, 1967: the ROKS Dangpo (PCEC-56) (formerly the USS Marfa (PCE-842)), is sunk by North Korean coastal artillery north of the NLL,^[12] 39 sailors of the crew of 79 are killed.
• January 17, 1968: In an incident known as the Blue House Raid, a 31-man detachment from the Korean People's Army secretly crosses the DMZ on a mission to kill South Korean President Park Chung-hee on January 21, nearly succeeding. The incursion was discovered after South Korean civilians confronted the North Koreans and informed the authorities. After entering Seoul disguised as South Korean soldiers, the North Koreans attempt to enter the Blue House (the official residence of the President of South Korea). The North Koreans are confronted by South Korean police and a firefight ensued. The North Koreans fled Seoul and individually attempted to cross the DMZ back to North Korea. Of the original group of 31 North Koreans, 28 were killed, one was captured, and two are unaccounted for. Additionally, 26 South Koreans were killed and 66 were wounded, the majority of whom were soldiers and police officers. Three American soldiers were also killed and three were wounded.^[13][14]
• January 23, 1968: The United States Naval ship the USS Pueblo is boarded and captured, along with its crew, by North Korean forces in the Sea of Japan. The entire crew of 83 is captured, with the exception of one sailor killed in the initial attack on the vessel, and the vessel was taken to a North Korean port. All the captives were released on December 23 of the same year via the Bridge of No Return at the DMZ. The USS Pueblo is still in North Korean possession and is docked in Pyongyangand is on display as a museum ship.^[15]
• From March 1968 and March 1969, various military skirmishes took place in the Paektusan region between the North Korean and Chinese armed forces.^[16]
• October 30, 1968: From October 30 to November 2, 120 to 130 North Korean commandos land on the northeast shore of South Korea, allegedly to establish a base in order to wage a guerrilla war against the South Korean government. A total of 110 to 113 were killed, seven were captured, and 13 escaped. Around 20 South Korean civilians, law enforcement officers, and soldiers were killed.^[10][17]
• March 1969: Six North Korean commandos kill a South Korean police officer near Jumunjin, Gangwon-do. Seven American soldiers are killed in a North Korean attack along the DMZ.^[18]
• April 15, 1969: An EC-121, US reconnaissance plane is shot down 90 miles (140 km) east of the North Korean coast, leaving 31 dead.^[19]
• November 1969: Four US soldiers are killed by North Koreans in the Demilitarized Zone.
• December 11, 1969: North Korean agent Cho Ch'ang-hǔi hijacked a Korean Air Lines YS-11 flying from Gangneung Airbase in Gangneung, Gangwon-do to Gimpo International Airport in Seoul. It was carrying four crewmembers and 46 passengers (excluding Cho); 39 of the passengers were returned two months later, but the crew and seven passengers remained in North Korea. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair on landing.

1970s[edit]

• April 1970: At Kumchon, Gyeonggi-do, a clash leaves three North Korean infiltrators dead and five South Korean soldiers wounded.^[20]
• June 1970: The North Korean navy seizes a broadcast vessel from the South near the Northern Limit Line. 20 crew are captured.
• February 1974: Two South Korean fishing vessels are sunk and 30 crew detained by the North.
• 1974: The first North Korean infiltration tunnel into ROK is discovered. Three following tunnels were found in 1975, 1978, 1990.^[8] The joint ROK-U.S. investigation team trip a North Korean booby-trap, killing one American and wounding 6 others.
• March 1975: The second North Korean infiltration tunnel is discovered.
• June 1976: An incursion south of the DMZ in Gangwon-do leaves three dead from the North and six from the South.
• August 18, 1976: The Axe murder incident— an attempt to trim a tree in the Demilitarized Zone near Panmunjom— ends with two US soldiers dead and injuries to another four U.S. soldiers and five South Korean soldiers.
• July 14, 1977: An American CH-47 Chinook helicopter is shot down after straying into the north over the DMZ. Three airmen are killed and one is briefly held prisoner (this was the sixth such incident since the armistice was signed).^[21]
• October 1978: The third North Korean infiltration tunnel is discovered.
• October 1979: Three North Korean agents attempting to infiltrate the eastern sector of the DMZ are intercepted, killing one of the agents.
• December 6, 1979: US patrol in the DMZ accidentally crosses the MDL into a North Korean minefield in heavy fog. One US soldier is killed and four are injured. the body is recovered from the North Koreans five days later.^[22]

1980s[edit]

• March 1980: Three North Koreans are killed while trying to cross the Han River estuary into the South.
• May 1980: North Koreans engage OP Ouillette on DMZ in firefight. One North Korean WIA.
• March 1981: Three North Koreans try to enter the South in Geumhwa-eup, Cheorwon, Gangwon-do; one is killed.
• July 1981: Three North Koreans are killed trying to cross the upper Imjin River to the South.
• May 1982: Two North Korean infiltrators are spotted on the east coast, with one being killed.
• November 1987: American soldier and two North Korean soldiers die, and one American soldier is wounded during the firefight that erupted when a North Korean security detail confronted a sniper detail across the MDL into the southern-controlled sector of the Joint Security Area.
• November 1987: One South Korean killed on DMZ central sector by North Korean sniper fire.

1990s[edit]

• March 1990: The fourth North Korean infiltration tunnel is discovered, in what may be a total of seventeen tunnels in all.
• May 1992: Three Northern soldiers in South Korean uniforms are killed at Cheorwon, Gangwon-do; three South Korean soldiers are wounded.
• December 17, 1994: A US Army OH-58A+ Kiowa helicopter crosses 10 km into North Korean territory and is shot down. Of the crew of two, one dies and the other is held for 13 days.^[22][23]
• May 1995: North Korean forces fire on a South Korean fishing boat, killing three.
• October 1995: Two armed North Koreans are discovered at the Imjin River; one is killed.
• April 1996: Several hundred armed North Korean troops enter the Demilitarized Zone at the Joint Security Area and elsewhere on three occasions, in violation of the Korean armistice agreement.
• May 1996: Seven Northern soldiers cross the Demilitarized Zone, but withdraw after warning shots are fired.
• May & June 1996: North Korean vessels twice cross the Northern Limit Line and have a several-hour standoff with the South Korean navy.
• April 1997: Five North Korean soldiers cross the Demilitarized Zone in Cheolwon, Gangwon-do, and fire on South Korean positions.
• June 1997: Three North Korean vessels cross the Northern Limit Line and attack South Korean vessels two miles (3 km) south of the line. On land, fourteen North Korean soldiers cross 70 m south of the center of the DMZ, leading to a 23-minute exchange of fire.^[24]
• July 1998: A dead North Korean frogman was found with paraphernalia on a beach south of the DMZ.
• June 1999: The First Battle of Yeonpyeong, a series of clashes between North and South Korean vessels, takes place in the Yellow Sea near the Northern Limit Line.

2000s[edit]

• October 26, 2000: Two US aircraft observing a ROK army military exercise accidentally cross over the DMZ.^[22]
• 2001: On twelve separate occasions, North Korean vessels cross the Northern Limit Line and then withdraw.
• November 27, 2001: North and South Korean forces exchange fire without injuries.
• June 29, 2002: The second battle of Yeonpyeong leads to the deaths of six South Korean sailors and the sinking of a South Korean vessel. The number of North Koreans killed is unknown.
• November 16, 2002: South Korean forces fire warning shots on a Northern boat crossing the Northern Limit Line. The boat withdraws. The similar incident is repeated on November 20.
• February 19, 2003: A North Korean fighter plane crosses seven miles (11 km) south of the Northern Limit Line, and returns north after being intercepted by six South Korean planes.
• March 2, 2003: Four North Korean fighter jets intercept a US reconnaissance plane over the Sea of Japan.
• July 17, 2003: North and South Korean forces exchange fire at the DMZ around 6 AM. The South Korean army reports four rounds fired from the North and seventeen from the South. No injuries are reported.^[25]
• November 1, 2004: North Korean vessels, claiming to be in pursuit of illegal fishing craft, cross the Northern Limit Line and are fired upon by the South. The vessels withdraw 3 hours later.
• May 26, 2006: Two North Korean soldiers enter the DMZ and cross into South Korea. They return after South Korean soldiers fire warning shots.
• July 30, 2006: Several rounds are exchanged near a South Korean post in Yanggu, Gangwon.

Wikinews has related news: Korean navies exchange fire

• October 7, 2006: South Korean soldiers fire warning shots after five North Korean soldiers cross briefly onto their side of the border.
• October 27, 2009: A South Korean pig farmer, who was wanted for assault, cut a hole in the DMZ fence and defected to North Korea.^[26]
• November 10, 2009: Naval vessels from the two Koreas exchanged fire in the area of the NLL, reportedly causing serious damage to a North Korean patrol ship.^[27][28]For more details of this incident, see Battle of Daecheong.

2010s[edit]

• January 27, 2010: North Korea fires artillery shells into the water near Baengnyeong Island and South Korean vessels return fire.^[29][30] Three days later, North Korea continued to fire artillery towards the area.^[31]
• March 26, 2010: A South Korean naval vessel, the ROKS Cheonan, was allegedly sunk by a North Korean torpedo near Baengnyeong Island in the Yellow Sea. A rescue operation recovered 58 survivors but 46 sailors were killed. On May 20, 2010, a South Korean led international investigation group concluded that the sinking of the warship was in fact the result of a North Korean torpedo attack.^[32][33] North Korea denied involvement.^[34] The United Nations Security Council made a Presidential Statement condemning the attack but without identifying the attacker.^[35]
• October 29, 2010: Two shots are fired from North Korea toward a South Korean post near Hwacheon and South Korean troops fire three shots in return.^[36]
• November 23, 2010: North Korea fired artillery at South Korea's Greater Yeonpyeong island in the Yellow Sea and South Korea returned fire. Two South Korean marines and two South Korean civilians were killed, six were seriously wounded, and ten were treated for minor injuries. About seventy South Korean houses were destroyed.^[37][38][39] North Korean casualties were unknown, but Lee Hong-gi, the Director of Operations of the South Korean Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), claimed that as a result of the South Korean retaliation "there may be a considerable number of North Korean casualties".^[40]
• October 6, 2012: An 18-year-old North Korean Army private defects to South Korea. He is apparently not detected as he crossed the DMZ and has to knock on an ROK barracks door to draw attention to himself. The soldier later tells investigators that he defected after killing two of his superiors.^[41][42]
• September 16, 2013: A 47-year-old man is shot dead by South Korean soldiers while trying to swim across the Tanpocheon Stream near Paju to North Korea.^[43]
• February 26, 2014: South Korean defense officials claim that despite warnings a North Korean warship has repeatedly crossed into South Korean waters overnight.^[44]
• March 24, 2014: A North Korean drone is found crashed near Paju. The onboard cameras contain pictures of the Blue House and military installations near the DMZ. Another North Korean drone crashes on Baengnyeongdo on March 31.^[45][46]
• October 10, 2014: North Korean forces fire anti-aircraft rounds at propaganda balloons launched from Paju. South Korean military return fire after a warning.^[47]
• October 19, 2014: A group of North Korean soldiers approach the South Korean border and South Korean soldiers fire warning shots. The North Korean soldiers return fire before retreating. No injuries or property damage result.^[48]
• June 15, 2015: A teenaged North Korean soldier walks across the DMZ and defects at a South Korean guard post in north-eastern Hwacheon.^[49]
• August 4, 2015: Two South Korean soldiers were wounded after stepping on landmines that had allegedly been laid on the southern side of the DMZ by North Korean forces next to a ROK guard post.^[50] Kim Jin Moon of the South Korean-based Korea Institute for Defense Analyses, suggested that the incident was planned by members of the General Bureau of Reconnaissance to prove their loyalty to Kim Jong-un.^[51]
• August 20, 2015: As a reaction to the August 4 landmines, South Korea resumed playing propaganda on loudspeakers near the border.^[52] In 2004 both sides had agreed to end their loudspeaker broadcasts at each other.^[53] North Korea threatened to attack those loudspeakers, and on August 20 North Korea fired a rocket and shells across the border into Yeoncheon County. South Korea responded by firing artillery shells back at the origin of the rocket. There were no reports of injuries on either side.^[52][54] Following threats of war from the North, and various troops movements by both North and South Korea and the United States, an agreement was reached on August 24 that North Korea would express sympathy for the landmine incident in return for South Korea deactivating the loudspeakers.^[55]
• January 3, 2016: South Korean soldiers fired warning shots at a suspected North Korean drone near the DMZ.^[56]

[Cinaruco]

Yes, its really hard to see people well versed in the subject suddenly going "Damn it Trump! Don't mess the Korean peninsula!"

[rmgill]

The harsh talk just pretty much fortifies the NK position that they need Nukes.

 

Ignore their threats as bluster, open negotations, offer them a sweet trade deal and in a generation the problem will take care of its self.

They've HAD sweet deals over the years. REPEATEDLY. They pull out the saber rattling every so often to get us back to the table to offer them more free shit to quiet down.

 

The US Sends food. The UN sends food. The US has sent Fuel oil and Nuclear Reactor parts. We've promised to have full trade if the knock off the crazy shit. The UN has dialed back on the food aid because of funding for the UN program. Obviously thats the time for the NORKS to start saber rattling again because thats how they get the food again.

 

 

 

 

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21834.pdf

Food Aid
Since 1996, the United States has sent over 2 million metric tons (MT) of food assistance, worth about $700 million, to help North Korea alleviate chronic, massive food shortages that began in the early 1990s. A severe famine in the mid-1990s killed an estimated 600,000 to two million North Koreans. Over 90% of U.S. food assistance to Pyongyang has been channeled through the U.N. World Food Program (WFP), which has sent over 3.7 million MT of food to the DPRK since 1996. The United States has been by far the largest cumulative contributor to the WFP’s North Korea appeals.1 After 2002, U.S. shipments fell steadily, bottoming out at zero in FY2006 and FY2007.

U.S. Assistance to North Korea, 1995-2008

Food Aid (per FY)

KEDO Assistance (per calendar

yr; $ million)

6-Party Talks-Related Assistance (per FY; $ million)

Medical

Supplies & Other (per FY; $ million)

Calendar or Fiscal Year (FY)

Metric Tons

Commodity V alue

($ million)

Fuel Oil

Nuclear Disablement

Total ($ million)

1995

0

$0.0

$9.5

—

—

$0.2

$9.7

1996

19,500

$8.3

$22.0

—

—

$0.0

$30.3

1997

177,000

$52.4

$25.0

—

—

$5.0

$82.4

1998

200,000

$72.9

$50.0

—

—

$0.0

$122.9

1999

695,194

$222.1

$65.1

—

—

$0.0

$287.2

2000

265,000

$74.3

$64.4

—

—

$0.0

$138.7

2001

350,000

$102.8

$74.9

—

—

$0.0

$177.7

2002

207,000

$82.4

$90.5

—

—

$0.0

$172.9

2003

40,200

$25.5

$2.3

—

—

$0.0

$27.8

2004

110,000

$52.8

$0.0

—

—

$0.1

$52.9

2005

22,800

$7.5

—

—

—

—

$7.5

2006

0

$0.0

—

—

—

$0.0

$0.0

2007

0

$0.0

—

$25.0

$20.0

$0.0

$45.0

2008

500,000a

n.a.

—

$106.0b

—

$0.0

$106.0

2009 (Request)

—

n.a.

—

$15.0

—

—

$15.0

Total

2,586,694

$701.0

$403.7

$146.0

$20.0

$5.3

$1,276.0

 

Assistance Related to the Six-Party Talks. For years, Administration officials, including President Bush, have said that U.S. development assistance would be forthcoming if North Korea begins dismantling its nuclear programs. In January 2003, President Bush said that he would consider offering the DPRK a “bold initiative” including energy and agricultural development aid if the country first verifiably dismantles its nuclear program and satisfies other U.S. security concerns dealing with missiles and the deployment of conventional forces.11 In June 2004, the United States offered a proposal that envisioned a freeze of North Korea’s weapons program, followed by a series of measures to ensure complete dismantlement and, eventually, a permanent security guarantee, negotiations to resolve North Korea’s energy problems, and discussions on normalizing U.S.-North Korean relations that would include lifting the remaining U.S. sanctions and removing North Korea from the list of terrorist-supporting countries.12 In September 2005, the Six Parties issued a joint “statement of principles,” in which they agreed to “promote economic cooperation in the fields of energy, trade and investment, bilaterally and/or multilaterally,” and the United States, China, South Korea, Japan, and Russia “stated their willingness to provide energy assistance to the DPRK.” The agreement stated that the parties would discuss the provision of a light water reactor to North Korea “at the appropriate time.”

Edited August 12, 2017 by rmgill

[Mr King]

 

 

 

 

Bottom line is this, with today's news that your Orange Messiah is now threatening to use military force against Venezuela

I had hoped this was a slip and you meant NK. Went and checked the web and... nope, you were right. The wires are blowing up with this right now. FFS... /facepalm

Yeah, but this was expected. Maduro went ahead with the constituent assembly, jailed the opposition designated Supreme Court and had been warned not to continue in his antics. He continued. This is neither irresponsible or reckless by Trump.

Trump just handed Maduro his greatest propaganda gift. Instant justification for repression, without any costs.

What? Repression was already as hard as it could be... members of the National Assembly members jailed, thousands detained, torture of hundreds, nationwide raids in the night in opposition neighborhoods clearing entire residential buildings. There is a break within the military and the Chavis take stabliahment.

 

If anything the sanctions from both the OEA and the US are long overdue, for two separate factors. Maduro's popularity is bellow 20 percent, and even thone that remain do so out of Free Stuff dependence.

 

Second the sanctions are NOT against Venezuela, but against the assets of Venezuelans who took part on corruption and represión, by freezing or seizing assets they have on the evil empire in dollars.

 

That moment when you hate Trump so much you would defend dictators he critiques... the Trump derangement syndrome at its finest.

 

 

 

The esteemed Keith Ellison.

 

 

http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/11/keith-ellison-claims-north-korean-leader-is-more-responsible-than-trump/

[rmgill]

[Stuart Galbraith]

I have to question the logic that the present events solidify the North Korean need for nuclear weapons. They had the united states precisely where they wanted them by keeping Seoul in artillery range, and they STILL felt scared? Why?

 

Its a means of putting the screws on the United States and the region, pure and simple. Its the geopolitical equivalent of walking in a bank with a sawn off and asking for the 2 mailbags to get filled with cash, thanks so very much. And it was the appeasement and lack of resolve by multiple US administrations, yes, and the Chinese, that has allowed them to do it. And the reason why everyone criticises Trump on this is because (completely contrary to what I had assumed he would be) refuses to fold at the first opportunity when put under pressure.

 

I think Trump has handled it very well. If the first rule of crisis management is successful communication, Trump has highlighted multiple times what he will not stand for. Isnt this something of a contrast to Obama whom was reluctant to commit to anything, then moved the line in the sand when someone walked over it?

 

 

The whole problem with America on the world stage is that nobody thinks you will stand by what you say. And here is someone actually committing to standing by something. Why does anyone actually have a problem with that?

[Chris Werb]

If you look at that list of provocations, most of them are very trivial by any standard and would not affect a populous, industrialised country like the ROK to any degree at all. None of them warrant going into a full scale war that would inevitably kill (at least) hundreds of thousands on both sides and throw the entire peninsula into chaos. What makes sense to me is making sensible responses and making those more effective. When the NKs shelled an island back c. 2010 the South Koreans bought Spike NLOS missiles so they could catch and hit the perpetrators (they shot back with 155mm last time, but the MRLs were long gone by the time they arrived).

 

NK obviously knows the power of the US military and what it could do to them. There is no point in a US President coming out with bellicose and sometimes fatuous statements (the US nuclear arsenal is not more powerful than it has ever been and Trump's own actions have yet to have any effect on its effectiveness) - it can't do any good and makes him appear a lot less statesmanlike.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, but some of the provocations really arent trivial Chris. I was recently reading a book about the Nixon white house, and the section on the EC121 was interesting because Nixon very nearly went in and bombed North Korea in retaliation. he didnt do it, but he said to himself that it was the last time he would back down in a crisis, and so actually it proved, with the possible exception of India.

 

There was also a link I was reading on the incident in 1976 when the 2 US officers were chopped to death. Its not widely known but that incident resulted in a Defcon 3 alert, and that the US military was flirting with all kinds of responses, including destroying the offending tree with a GBU-15.

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/go-defcon-3-180949493/?no-ist=&page=4

 

The point is, yes for the most part these are trivial incidents, and yet the North Koreans keep doing them because they keep getting away with them and because, for them, they arent trivial because they are demonstrating an ability to act contrary to the United States wishes.. And the personal fear I have is that they will behave with their rockets or nuclear weapons in just the same cavalier manner as they have with their submarines and combat aircraft. Most nations that have nuclear weapons seem to take on board the power of what they have, and tend to calm down when they realise quite how much death they have at their fingertips. North Korea has not, and if anything, from the internet hacks, to the assassination of Kims Brother, to the continual missile launches, seem to be getting more, not less reckless.

 

Everyone says Trump has been reckless. Well for my money he is guilty of nothing more than displaying poor grammar and lapsing into pithy soundbites. He has been fairly explicit to give credit to him. Was he actually more threatening than this? Not really. Yet everyone (rightly) eulogizes Kennedy for his resolve, and mocks Trump as being aggressive. He isnt being aggressive. He is pointing out where the line is, and setting a position he has to stick with. The people of Guam seem happy with that.That pretty much is the resolve ive been waiting to see in a western leader for the past 10 years.

I mean yes, maybe he will will capitulate just like Obama did every time he faced a crisis. Somehow, my gut feeling says he wont.

 

 

My view, I dont want to see a war in the koreas either. But ultimately it comes down to the North Koreans are a failing regime that are doomed sooner or later to fail. And when they do, is it better they have a miniscule nuclear stockpile when they do, or one that can devastate the US Western Seaboard? Its hard questions like that people are failing to ask themselves.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Stuart Galbraith

[Jeff]

 

 

And yeah, deterrence is a Soviet Union, PRC level policy. If the USA has to start using that tool on a friggin nutcase dictator whose country is defined by looking wholly dark from space, pray to your God if you have it because the pussying has enveloped a once manly nation and no good can come from that.

That's bullshit. None of this is new.

 

Learn about the history of the Chinese nuclear program and US efforts to stop it at the beginning of the 60s. You had the same reasoning back then like today, "nutcase", "crazy", "unpredictable", "deterrence won't work against them".

 

 

Sometimes an argument is supported because there is a precedent for what the arguments says. But the proliferation of nuclear weapons is not one of those things that should be supported or accepted because of there being a precedent. For each country that has nuclear weapons requires a whole system of professionals and scientists for the proper care and handling of the nuclear arsenal. And the special kind of diplomatic relations would need to be giving in order to ensure that the arsenal does not fall into the wrong hands, either from the regime collapsing in the future at some point, or exported for geopolitical reasons. There's too much uncertainty and risk that goes way beyond calculation and control.

 

There is also a precedent for keeping the number of countries with nuclear weapons limited, such as Libya, Iraq, Kazakhstan, and the Ukraine. Even the ROK was looking into them at some point and KSA might still be teasing the idea. And Japan borders quite close to becoming nuclear power. Why should the Kim dynasty get special pardoning for becoming a nuclear power? If North Korea is successful, then it would embolden Iran, and risk a whole chain reaction of demand in other countries to become a nuclear power.

 

And to the complaints about Trump's use of words, does it really matter that much in this situation? Would Obama or Clinton inspire more confidence in this situation?

 

The US put quite a bit of effort into exposing and stopping Taiwan's clandestine nuclear efforts. It is a strange world indeed when the most radical and dangerous nations are given a pass and allowed to join the nuclear club, precisely because they are radical and dangerous, but more sane members of the international community can't. I agree, the fewer nations that have these damn things the better but the fewer belligerent nations that have them the much better. We have been actively accomplishing the worst possible outcome.