Because Trump 2.0

[Tim Sielbeck]

14 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

The 50 years in which the US has had command of NATO? because Europeans don't GAS about the US? those 50 years?

By that general observation, I would point out that in those 50 years, the US has thrown its allies under the bus more often than it has stood by them, and that the only allies that have stood by the US consistently have been the Europeans (Korea?), Australia (Korea, Vietnam?), Taiwan and South Korea, so as for considering the US as not worth consideration, we seem to follow the US lead quite a lot.

Mebbe that speaks more about your limitations than actual opinions?

You missing the point that I am not limiting this to military actions or obligations.

[Stuart Galbraith]

17 minutes ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

Was 9/11 fifty years ago already?

 

 I have observed for most of the last 50 plus years that many, if not most, Europeans do not give a flying fuck about America or what Americans think.  It has nothing to do with NATO, or NATO obligations, just a general opinion that Americans are not worth the consideration of Europeans because we are beneath them.

I was here in 2003, when all tanknet,  wherever they were from, wanted to help you, so that clearly isn't true. We in Britain still comemorate wartime aircrashes of US aircraft. This continual self pity is off the chart and becoming ludicrous.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

4 hours ago, urbanoid said:

'I decide who is a Jew in Luftwaffe!'

 

[RETAC21]

2 minutes ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

You missing the point that I am not limiting this to military actions or obligations.

No, I am not, I am pointing out that your subjective perception comes from a very narrow sample of noisy anti-American attitudes among some Europeans that are not common at all, and that facts support the reality that the Europeans have recognized US exceptionalism and embraced it much more readily than efforts to "unify" Europe by European powers.

[Stuart Galbraith]

So much so it's really been against our interests. As we can increasingly see.

 

[NickM]

Just now, RETAC21 said:

No, I am not, I am pointing out that your subjective perception comes from a very narrow sample of noisy anti-American attitudes among some Europeans that are not common at all, and that facts support the reality that the Europeans have recognized US exceptionalism and embraced it much more readily than efforts to "unify" Europe by European powers.

I'm seeing the Anti American Attitudes (and generally investigative skills that are utter shyte)  are pretty common among the Journalist class, from what I see in my mom's Greek/France24/DW news programs==both in Europe and here, they seem to be in their own 'fart smelling bubble'.

Edited February 23, 2025 by NickM

[NickM]

Oh have you noticed the latest trend on Y/T? "Trump's popularity is cratering".

[Stuart Galbraith]

There is a lot of people piping up saying 'I voted for Trump and got fired' and 'My daughter got fired, and I voted for Trump 3 times!' Musk seems to be the new Rumsfeld as far as self inflicted damage is concerned.

[RETAC21]

16 minutes ago, NickM said:

I'm seeing the Anti American Attitudes (and generally investigative skills that are utter shyte)  are pretty common among the Journalist class, from what I see in my mom's Greek/France24/DW news programs==both in Europe and here, they seem to be in their own 'fart smelling bubble'.

Because they are fed from USian Mass Media - just like the US is getting its news from Yurropean mass media about Europe and both have become activists above newsmen.

But should we believe that journos are representative of the population at large now?

[NickM]

Just now, RETAC21 said:

Because they are fed from USian Mass Media - just like the US is getting its news from Yurropean mass media about Europe and both have become activists above newsmen.

But should we believe that journos are representative of the population at large now?

I've been leery of the media since the late 1970s.

[Skywalkre]

2 hours ago, NickM said:

Oh have you noticed the latest trend on Y/T? "Trump's popularity is cratering".

His popularity was never high to begin with.  His opening numbers were some of the lowest of a newly elected POTUS.  To be fair, though, that could also be the new norm in our highly partisan environment.

With that being said Trump appears to be making the same mistake the Ds made after '22 - misinterpreting the real reason he won (either from pure idiocy or intentionally) and pushing forward with his agenda at the expense of what the voters actually want.

Even in the polls that seemed to show support for his actions there were bad signs.  While the DOGE actions were originally met with optimism this seems to come more from folks responding that they appreciated the appearance of Trump doing something while not exactly knowing what it was he was doing.  As more and more comes out about what's actually happening expect the support for it to fall.

Also, even in some of these early polls where he's barely in the favorable area when folks are asked "has he done enough to address cost of living/economy" those numbers have been bad.  THIS is why he was elected.  The exit polling was clear as day after the election and so far he's either done nothing to address this or his actions (tariffs and threats of tariffs) have actually made things worse.  That first inflation report with it ticking back up did not go over well...

[Skywalkre]

I'm shocked, shocked these stories haven't been posted yet...

Quote

Trump administration fires and then tries to rehire nuclear weapons workers in DOGE reversal

The Trump administration has paused the firings of hundreds of federal employees working on the nation's nuclear weapons programs, in a reversal that has left workers confused and experts cautioning that DOGE's blind cost cutting will put communities at risk.

Late Thursday afternoon, a number probationary employees of the National Nuclear Security Administration were fired, a source in the Energy Department confirmed. This is the entity within the department that manages the nation's nuclear weapons stockpile, among other responsibilities. Three U.S. officials told The Associated Press up to 350 employees at the NNSA were abruptly laid off, with some losing access to email even before they'd learned they were fired, only to try to enter their offices on Friday morning to find they had been locked out. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation.

One of the hardest hit offices was the Pantex Plant near Amarillo, Texas, which saw about 30% of the cuts. Those employees work on reassembling warheads, one of the most sensitive jobs across the nuclear weapons enterprise, with the highest levels of clearance.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-firings-us-nuclear-weapons-workers-reversing/

Quote

Agriculture Department tries to rehire fired workers tied to bird flu response

OMAHA, Neb. (AP) — The Agriculture Department is scrambling to rehire several workers who were involved in the government’s response to the ongoing bird flu outbreak that has devastated egg and poultry farms over the past three years.

The workers were among the thousands of federal employees eliminated on the recommendations of billionaire Elon Musk ‘s Department of Government Efficiency, which is working to carry out Trump’s promise to streamline and reshape the federal government.

Republican Rep. Don Bacon said the administration should be more careful in how it carries out the cuts.

“While President Trump is fulfilling his promise to shed light on waste, fraud, and abuse in government, DOGE needs to measure twice and cut once. Downsizing decisions must be narrowly tailored to preserve critical missions,” said Bacon, who represents a swing district in Nebraska.

https://apnews.com/article/usda-firings-doge-bird-flu-trump-fdd6495cbe44c96d471ae8c6cf4dd0a8

I've said it before, but the thought that Elon and his people can go into some of these places and in just a few hours/days be able to accurately pick out the fraud/waste/abuse and cut it is... pure fucking BS fantasy land thinking.

I'm reminded of the Tea Party back in the day and how you'd see folks in that movement (some posting here on TN) make comments like "hurr, durr... just cut the DoE, we don't need it!"  Those folks failed to do even a minuscule amount of research about what goes on in places like DoE which spends a large chunk of its funding on nuclear matters that can't be cut back.

I guarantee in 5-15 years we'll be hearing stories of major incidents and when they investigate will realize it all started with these blind cuts (because that's what they are) and the complete lack of thought made with so many of them.

[rmgill]

14 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Did they ask you? When the US invoked Article 5 post 9-11, did the Europeans told it to stuff it and that it wasn't their war?

What has Article 5 have to do with Ukraine? 

[Ssnake]

Maybe I misunderstood the Veep's message ten days ago. But if so, about 500 million other people in Europe also no longer believe that the US will honor its obligations if Europe came under attack, and neither does Putin, I guess.

What is it now, "didn't happen" or "Did happen, and here's why that's a good thing"?

[Rick]

7 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Maybe I misunderstood the Veep's message ten days ago. But if so, about 500 million other people in Europe also no longer believe that the US will honor its obligations if Europe came under attack, and neither does Putin, I guess.

What is it now, "didn't happen" or "Did happen, and here's why that's a good thing"?

Possible that your only looking at Vance's speech through a European lens. He is critical that some European countries do not allow the criticism of government in cultural issues. He is critical of the lack of European responsibility for its own defense while being overly dependent on the U.S. taxpayer for this. IMO, "between the lines" in his speech, he is criticizing N.A.T.O. for wanting the U.S. to take the lead in the Russia/Ukraine conflict so that those countries, and the U.S. left,  can continue to criticize the U.S. no matter what it does or does not due to try to deflect attention away from the European failings I mentioned above.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

10 hours ago, Skywalkre said:

I'm shocked, shocked these stories haven't been posted yet...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-firings-us-nuclear-weapons-workers-reversing/

https://apnews.com/article/usda-firings-doge-bird-flu-trump-fdd6495cbe44c96d471ae8c6cf4dd0a8

I've said it before, but the thought that Elon and his people can go into some of these places and in just a few hours/days be able to accurately pick out the fraud/waste/abuse and cut it is... pure fucking BS fantasy land thinking.

I'm reminded of the Tea Party back in the day and how you'd see folks in that movement (some posting here on TN) make comments like "hurr, durr... just cut the DoE, we don't need it!"  Those folks failed to do even a minuscule amount of research about what goes on in places like DoE which spends a large chunk of its funding on nuclear matters that can't be cut back.

I guarantee in 5-15 years we'll be hearing stories of major incidents and when they investigate will realize it all started with these blind cuts (because that's what they are) and the complete lack of thought made with so many of them.

There is a joke going around Ukraine at the moment, that after Zelensky's Press Conference, Trump wants to nuke Ukraine. But fortunately Musk fired the people that know where they codes are.

 

[Ssnake]

Frankly, Rick, you need to take off your US glasses on this one. It's irrelevant whether you, I, or anyone in the world thinks that Vance had a point about his freedom of speech speech. What was said (and left unsaid) is entirely subordinate to how it was received by your nominal allies, and the rest of the world. In the context of Trump's earlier utterances that he would encourage Russia to attack certain "irrelevant NATO allies" it further (and drastically) eroded the deterrence effect that NATO article 5 has, as far as the US component goes. That, in turn, is an invitation to Putin to try and test it. And that makes an attack by Russia on European NATO countries a lot more likely.

And then you guys will tell us that we attacked Russia and need to stop it, I guess?

In the best of cases the US is seen as vaccillating with its alliances. That will make a lot of countries reevaluate their strategic situation, and not to the US's advantage. I realize that it's entirely pointless trying to discuss this with you Trumpists. I'm writing this for everybody else, and for the record. The US will come to deeply regret this terrible failure of strategic communication. The effects may take a few years to materialize, but they won't be forgotten - like John Connolly's incredibly witty remarks in 1971. You really have a way to treat your allies.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Im reminded by a BBC discovery among the Nixon tapes of a conversation between Kissinger and Nixon, about Britains decision to join the EEC. They thought this was a great idea, fully encouraging Heath to join, presumably because they believed (as De Gaulle believed would be the case) Britain would be their stalking horse in the community. Kissinger even talked about organizing a campaign, 'A year of Europe' which like most American political initiatives was almost entirely forgotten about as soon as it happened, not least by the Europeans whom couldnt really grasp what it had to do with Americans anyway.

  Then when Britain joined the EEC, the Americans noticed that Heath and latterly Wilson were significantly less enthusiastic than they were about the transatlantic relationship. They didnt ring so often, were less needy. The phone call records ended with Kissinger saying 'We should never have encouraged them to join...'

It underlines a basic point, America never knows what it wants Europe for. Does it want strong military allies? Does it want a market for its domestic product? A market for their military product? Does it want them to tow the line, to be independent? Does it want them to go away, does it want Europe to stop ignoring them? It seems every 4 years, in fact probably earlier than 4 years, you guys change your mind about the kind of Europe you want. You never demonstrate this kind of shitzophrenia over the Pacific.

Now you decide you want nothing more to do with Europe that we are a bunch of freeloaders. I daresay you will get yourself in a scrape in the Pacific or somewhere, as you do with monotonous regularity, and then be blaming us for not helping you. Its the usual way the transatlantic relationship works.

As for Vance, it was not what he said about freedom of speech. Though considering that Trump has been banning journalists from the White House that dont subscribe to his 'Gulf of America', then I dont think America really has any real place to lecture on freedom of speech at this present time. But overlooking that, it was not that we were so concerned about about what Vance actually said. What concerned us was that in a place that has a long history of discussing European security (Good, bad, misguided, whatever), he chose to talk about that freedom of speech, because he said he didnt believe that Russia, nor China, were a threat to European security. Whcih was kind of like going to a Bar Mitzvah party and making jokes about Nazi's. Or conceivably, opening at a Billy Graham concert and saying you dont believe in God, 'But Billy is just great, even if that isnt your bag.'

Just wow. Talk about reading the room wrong.

 

[seahawk]

Let us look at the timeline.

 

The 1990's

https://www.nato.int/cps/fr/natohq/official_texts_23847.htm?selectedLocale=en

Substantial progress in arms control has already enhanced stability and security by lowering arms levels and increasing military transparency and mutual confidence (including through the Stockholm CDE agreement of 1986, the INF Treaty of 1987 and the CSCE agreements and confidence and security-building measures of 1990). Implementation of the 1991 START Treaty will lead to increased stability through substantial and balanced reductions in the field of strategic nuclear arms. Further far- reaching changes and reductions in the nuclear forces of the United States and the Soviet Union will be pursued following President Bush's September 1991 initiative. Also of great importance is the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE), signed at the 1990 Paris Summit; its implementation will remove the Alliance's numerical inferiority in key conventional weapon systems and provide for effective verification procedures. All these developments will also result in an unprecedented degree of military transparency in Europe, thus increasing predictability and mutual confidence. Such transparency would be further enhanced by the achievement of an Open Skies regime. There are welcome prospects for further advances in arms control in conventional and nuclear forces, and for the achievement of a global ban on chemical weapons, as well as restricting de-stabilising arms exports and the proliferation of certain weapons technologies.

The 2000's

https://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2000/p00-052e.htm

We applaud Ukraine's participation in the PfP programme. We are convinced that the recent approval by the Verkhovna Rada of the ratification of the SOFA is a significant step forward in enhancing the contribution of Ukraine to PfP, including through exercises hosted by Ukraine. We encourage the Ukrainian Government to implement expeditiously the necessary restructuring of its armed forces. To this end, we are ready to continue NATO's support for the implementation of defence reform and welcome the ongoing efforts in the Joint Working Group on Defence Reform. We wish to thank Ukraine for its continued contribution to KFOR. Ukraine's presence in Kosovo is evidence of the importance it attaches to the stability of the region.

 

The 2010's

https://www.nato.int/cps/bu/natohq/official_texts_68828.htm

As expressed in the Declaration by the Heads of State and Government of the nations contributing to the UN-mandated, NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan, our ISAF mission in Afghanistan remains the Alliance’s key priority, and we welcome the important progress that has been made. Afghanistan’s security and stability are directly linked with our own security. In meeting with President Karzai, all our 21 partners in ISAF, the United Nations, the European Union, the World Bank and Japan, we reaffirm our long-term commitment to Afghanistan, as set out in our strategic vision agreed at the Bucharest Summit and reaffirmed at the Strasbourg/Kehl Summit. We welcome the valuable and increased contributions made by our ISAF partners and would welcome further contributions. We are entering a new phase in our mission. The process of transition to full Afghan security responsibility and leadership in some provinces and districts is on track to begin in early 2011, following a joint Afghan and NATO/ISAF assessment and decision. Transition will be conditions-based, not calendar-driven, and will not equate to withdrawal of ISAF-troops. Looking to the end of 2014, Afghan forces will be assuming full responsibility for security across the whole of Afghanistan. Through our enduring partnership with the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, we reaffirm our long-term commitment to a better future for the Afghan people.

[Stuart Galbraith]

This is what profoundly irritates me about the arguments about 'NATO expansion.' The narrative that comes out of the Trump white house is that this was a European policy push, that the Americans were dragged along unwillingly into places they did not wish to go. Americans never wanted the Baltic states, Ukraine or Georgia in NATO, how could anyone think that? Damn Europeans got us involved in schemes we never devised!

In fact looking at the keen push to get as many European states in NATO as possible to provide bodies of the war on terror. And in fact it was already underway before 911. Perhaps Americans believed that the more europeans there were, the less they had to invest in European security, and they could start their pacific tilt. This view is rather supported by the timeline, started in 1997, hit a speedbump when it turned out Ukraine gave saddam air defence missiles, but they did actually support American personnel in Iraq in expectation NATO membership would be forthcoming. And contrary to the Putin narrative, this had already ended by 2007 when putin had discovered NATO expansion as a nationalist narrative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

At the NATO enlargement summit in November 2002, the NATO–Ukraine commission adopted a NATO-Ukraine Action Plan.^[37] President Kuchma's declaration that Ukraine wanted to join NATO (also in 2002) and the sending of Ukrainian troops to Iraq in 2003^[26] could not mend relations between Kuchma and NATO.^[26] Until 2006 the Ukrainian Armed Forces worked with NATO in Iraq.^[38] Most officials believed it would be too risky to allow Ukraine to join NATO as it would upset Russia greatly.

Looked at like this, it rather looks like Americans dragged NATO into areas they never really thought they would have to defend, and now it looks like the security order is going to get pissed into the wind, now leave the Europeans to wipe up all the vomit and broken bottles from the party that got out of hand.  American presidents created a a European security problem, and are now pissing off just when its going to come to a head.

America is kind of like the pick and mix of sweets you used to be able to buy in Woolworths. You never know what one you are going to get.

Edited February 24, 2025 by Stuart Galbraith

[Rick]

37 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Frankly, Rick, you need to take off your US glasses on this one. It's irrelevant whether you, I, or anyone in the world thinks that Vance had a point about his freedom of speech speech. What was said (and left unsaid) is entirely subordinate to how it was received by your nominal allies, and the rest of the world. In the context of Trump's earlier utterances that he would encourage Russia to attack certain "irrelevant NATO allies" it further (and drastically) eroded the deterrence effect that NATO article 5 has, as far as the US component goes. That, in turn, is an invitation to Putin to try and test it. And that makes an attack by Russia on European NATO countries a lot more likely.

And then you guys will tell us that we attacked Russia and need to stop it, I guess?

In the best of cases the US is seen as vaccillating with its alliances. That will make a lot of countries reevaluate their strategic situation, and not to the US's advantage. I realize that it's entirely pointless trying to discuss this with you Trumpists. I'm writing this for everybody else, and for the record. The US will come to deeply regret this terrible failure of strategic communication. The effects may take a few years to materialize, but they won't be forgotten - like John Connolly's incredibly witty remarks in 1971. You really have a way to treat your allies.

If your referring to this  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7HE6bCe24g then Trump is calling Europe's bluff. Trump is demanding responsibility for increase defense spending by N.A.T.O. to defend Europe rather than Europe willfully being irresponsible and trying to pass this responsibility to the U.S. taxpayer, a fact that has occurred for far too long.  If Europe needs "U.S. glasses" to see this than so be it.  If Europe truly feels threaten by Russia then it would march a European army into Ukraine. 

The threat to Europe is not Russia, it is internal as Vice President Vance pointed out in his speech. The governments of Europe as seen using U.S. glasses are afraid of their own native people making their choices heard. 

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

And in doing so, completely destroyed European deterrence. Bravo. He kicked over the accomplisment of 7 decades in a month and a half. let nobody say he doesnt work hard.

You guys are really well equipped for expounding on the stuff you pick up on Fox. Are you as good at listening to people whom are liable to get shot at in the near future? No. So the comprehension problem is not ours, its rather yours.

[Rick]

Glorious 

https://www.facebook.com/TheOklahoman/videos/watch-3000-students-sing-the-star-spangled-banner-at-a-hotel/818741230436635/

[urbanoid]

OMG

https://x.com/FraterLeonatus/status/1893764610882216098