Because Trump 2.0

[Der Zeitgeist]

59 minutes ago, Josh said:

Sunday will be posting to himself soon.

He should probably get more sleep or something. His anger is seriously affecting his argumentative skills.

[rmgill]

4 hours ago, Rickard N said:

If a bunch of non Antifa people start following an Antifa person when he decides to storm the Capitol. Isn't that sort of strange? Or are all of the people that entered the Capitol Antifa?

/R

People in mobs are stupid. 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Thats right. A bunch of racists, white supremacists and Confederacy cheerleaders all follow a clearly mixed race man into the breach. 

Probably because they're not all a bunch of racist like your frothing at the mouth media says. Obviously. I know you haven't gotten out of your village in decades but please don't presume what the US's body politic thinks. 
 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Rickard N said:

I think that the ones that smashed the Capitol isn't, or do you think that they are?

Regarding the shameless election steal, have you got any smoking gun that the will hold?

/R

Sports fans riot, burn cars, overturn police cars, smash windows and other mindlessly stupid shit. 

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Dear God in heaven. Someone check the pipes, some maniac poured Koolaid in the water.

Just heard on CNN a recording of the day the riot happened, one of the crowd said, 'The whole building is full of treasonous traitors. Death is the only remedy to people in that building'. So I think the idea that none of them went with the idea of causing death to people in there really needs some reexamination.

People use a lot of hyperbole. You might pick up on that fact if you look at what people say or write. Or for that matter, go read some of your posts.

Edited January 15, 2021 by rmgill

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, lucklucky said:

The violence supported by Democratic party in the summer was much worse.

Lets see the cost of the Jan 6 compared to the still totaling 1-2 Billion across the country. 

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Present your list of elected officials who have received BLM death threats.

Does this count? 

Bear in mind that this is in DC, in BLM Plaza. You can tell because it's painted on the ground. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12538173/blm-leader-threatens-burn-white-house-police-graves/

Edited January 15, 2021 by rmgill

[Skywalkre]

15 hours ago, R011 said:

And yet, with all the threats, Republican Congressmen still voted to certify Trump and Democrats to impeach him.  Why, it's as if they understand nearly all these threats are just mouthy idiots with no intention of carrying them out and have made security arrangements accordingly - as usual.

Umm... the threats were against the Rs if they did not support (or have not been, as some have already been receiving threats) Trump.  I went back to the piece I saw two nights ago.  One R Congressman stated he was receiving threats before the vote... and then decided to vote no on impeachment.  Did that influence him?  The reddit pieces I was referring to were apparently referencing a WaPo article citing sources on the Hill stating several R Congressmen voted no due to fears from threats received or they felt they would receive if they voted to impeach.

[Skywalkre]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

Sunday will be posting to himself soon.

He's doing his best to grab the mantle of unofficial-TN-jerk now that DKTanker has departed and abdicated that throne.  It's a shame how far his posting style has degenerated...

[Steven P Allen]

4 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Umm... the threats were against the Rs if they did not support (or have not been, as some have already been receiving threats) Trump.  I went back to the piece I saw two nights ago.  One R Congressman stated he was receiving threats before the vote... and then decided to vote no on impeachment.  Did that influence him?  The reddit pieces I was referring to were apparently referencing a WaPo article citing sources on the Hill stating several R Congressmen voted no due to fears from threats received or they felt they would receive if they voted to impeach.

Well, the Congresscritters are supposed to respond to their constituents.

Now, before your knee jerks you off your chair, understand something:  one of the political problems we're facing is that most constituents in the country on whatever side are feeling as if their representatives are not representing them, are in fact ignoring them and doing whatever the Power Structure (insert name of choice) wants rather than what the people (again, insert whichever persuasion you prefer) want.  And so the constituents are raising their voices in order to be heard.  Squeaky wheel and grease and all that.  The end product looks unsurprisingly like a toddler's temper tantrum writ large.

One difference among the political divisions is that the left has a well-deserved reputation for it because they do it more often, larger, and more destructively (anybody seriously trying to compare the hours-long DC fracas with months of Antifa riots and BLM rampages isn't living with a rational frame of mind).

[Skywalkre]

3 hours ago, nitflegal said:

Does any of this alter the culpability of Trump and his speech?

Everyone seems to be missing the biggest reason Trump is culpable and it has nothing to do with his speech - if he had done the right, moral, and ethical thing by conceding his loss in the election weeks ago (when it was overwhelmingly clear he had lost... for the umpteenth time...) and stopped pushing this 'stolen election' nonsense we never would have had that rally... and thus never had the Capitol riot.

There are absolutely solid critiques that have been brought up about the hypocrisy of Twitter and other companies in their selection of cancelling out Trump while other leaders or nations still get to use their services.  However, I can also understand their moves - none of those other leaders or nations are the head of the world's biggest economy and superpower.  Everything Trump is doing is adding to instability and uncertainty at a time when the world is reeling from COVID and some experts are predicting another Depression.  He's doing these things not because he's standing on the side of truth and righteousness but because he's petty and self-righteous (as mentioned countless times there's nothing to his claims... and even reading the posts of supporters of the notion of a 'stolen election' here on TN their arguments are the epitome of shifting the goal posts as they struggle to justify that nonsense). 

So far this isn't a crusade against Conservatives... it's an effort to shut down one man who is doing nothing but make things worse at a time when a lot of things already suck.  I've always argued DC isn't run by the Left, Right, Socialists, or Christian Conservatives... it's run by the money of special interests.  Those special interests are afraid of where the world is going economically and they're finally taking a stand.  It's not right they have all that power, and I'm all for curtailing it (and have said as much over the years), but in this instance it's one of those moments where the crackdown on Trump highlights even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Skywalkre

[Der Zeitgeist]

13 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

He's doing his best to grab the mantle of unofficial-TN-jerk now that DKTanker has departed and abdicated that throne.  It's a shame how far his posting style has degenerated...

It's what reading MAGA blogs 24/7 does to you.

[Stuart Galbraith]

3 hours ago, nitflegal said:

My natural assumption is that in a violent crowd at least one person intends to cause at the least physical harm to the occupants.  Especially when whipped into a frenzy and taking part in a mob.  I have assumed that the guy with a belt full of zip ties was either commando Larping or had intentions of at least holding officials hostage.

This is why encouraging violent protests that are effectively mobs has been such a stupid idea since the left burned parts of many cities to celebrate Trump's election.  Mobs are a scientifically proven way to take angry but decent people and turn them into monsters.  I have no doubt there were conservatives in that mob who were ready to cause harm to people and that could easily escalate to death.  I am totally fine with throwing those people in prison.  I will not pretend that this was a surprising organic result.  Not when the elites and the media have been teaching us that, even in a pandemic when they will be the much-feared super-spreader events, that violent protests that destroy property, injure officers, and murder people on the other side and at random are appropriate and viable means of affecting political discourse.  I think people are so wrapped up in hatred of Trump that, just like conservatives trying to claim that the capitol protest was made up of angels and antifa operatives, they are scrambling to excuse awful behavior.

How about this, conservatives have been peacefully protesting for years.  They had the tea party where they peacefully went and protested and picked up their trash when they left.  They got targeted by the IRS, vilified as actual Nazi's and white supremacists, and shut down.  Then you had Trump rallies; angrier, more chaotic but still peaceful and they cleaned up after themselves.  The result?  Their guy was called a Nazi, they were called a Nazi and in an election where several swing states unconstitutionally changed their voting methods in ways predicted to favor Democrats and when damaging stories that polls indicate would have swung the election were actively suppressed they saw power go to the people who are actively calling themselves their enemy.  Then they had a GA election to decide the fate of the country (and put up sh*t candidates to be fair) where one was a racist, who ran a youth camp where child abuse happened and was on video as his wife told police he was an abuser and all of that got suppressed again so that the Democrats control the agenda completely with only their rather tarnished respect for the rules and norms to keep them in check.  

The left used political violence (and we have the VP and House speaker actively encouraging this violence by speech and actions) to beat the Republicans and have demonstrated that it is effective.  They have demonstrated that traditional non-violent conservative protests accomplish nothing. That lesson has been learned by the right and every action taken to further scare or step on them will simply increase the drive to violence on their side as well.

Not to share too much but that whole Facebook narcing on my account?  They also sent my daughters' Instagram page links.  Presumably to let me know that they knew who my daughters were.  Ask yourself who I might be willing to vote for moving forward when the tolerant left is implicitly threatening my children and my livelihood.  And I'm the rational conservative. . .

Copper today was interviewed on CNN. Reported someone tried to get his gun, with a few people in the crowd shouting 'Kill him with his own gun!' So he shouts out he has children. So then a group of decent people surrounded him to protect him. His view when interviewed on CNN was complex. 'Thank you, but fuck you for being there'.

Rather than drawing a false distinction between Republicans and Antifa, it might be more appropriate to draw a distinction between some good people and outright unapologetic Fascists. And neither should have been in the middle of a riot in Government property anyway, as that Copper pointed out.

 

I certainly would agree the left has used violence, but fair go, they have not made a violent attack on the legislative seat of the US Government. That is a departure even for Antifa or BLM . Even the death toll of left and right wing violence is greater to right wing violence. And that's worrying, because I can agree the left has a far lower threshold to violence than the right, pointing to this actually being the far right, not the moderate right led astray. 

 

Yes, you are a rational Conservative, and no disrespect to you, or the occasional irrational ones posting on this thread. You have my respect, they have my forbearance.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

7 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Everyone seems to be missing the biggest reason Trump is culpable and it has nothing to do with his speech - if he had done the right, moral, and ethical thing by conceding his loss in the election weeks ago (when it was overwhelmingly clear he had lost... for the umpteenth time...) and stopped pushing this 'stolen election' nonsense we never would have had that rally... and thus never had the Capitol riot.

There are absolutely solid critiques that have been brought up about the hypocrisy of Twitter and other companies in their selection of cancelling out Trump while other leaders or nations still get to use their services.  However, I can also understand their moves - none of those other leaders or nations are the head of the world's biggest economy and superpower.  Everything Trump is doing is adding to instability and uncertainty at a time when the world is reeling from COVID and some experts are predicting another Depression.  He's doing these things not because he's standing on the side of truth and righteousness (as mentioned countless times there's nothing to his claims... and even reading the posts of supporters of the notion of a 'stolen election' here on TN their arguments are the epitome of shifting the goal lines) but because he's petty and self-righteous. 

So far this isn't a crusade against Conservatives... it's an effort to shut down one man who is doing nothing but make things worse at a time when a lot of things already suck.  I've always argued DC isn't run by the Left, Right, Socialists, or Christian Conservatives... it's run by the money of special interests.  Those special interests are afraid of where the world is going economically and they're finally taking a stand.  It's not right they have all that power, and I'm all for curtailing it (and have said as much over the years), but in this instance it's one of those moments where the crackdown on Trump highlights even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Exactly.

He asked them all to come on the basis of a lie. Someone was always going to be disappointed and come out swinging.

[nitflegal]

3 minutes ago, Skywalkre said:

Everyone seems to be missing the biggest reason Trump is culpable and it has nothing to do with his speech - if he had done the right, moral, and ethical thing by conceding his loss in the election weeks ago (when it was overwhelmingly clear he had lost... for the umpteenth time...) and stopped pushing this 'stolen election' nonsense we never would have had that rally... and thus never had the Capitol riot.

There are absolutely solid critiques that have been brought up about the hypocrisy of Twitter and other companies in their selection of cancelling out Trump while other leaders or nations still get to use their services.  However, I can also understand their moves - none of those other leaders or nations are the head of the world's biggest economy and superpower.  Everything Trump is doing is adding to instability and uncertainty at a time when the world is reeling from COVID and some experts are predicting another Depression.  He's doing these things not because he's standing on the side of truth and righteousness (as mentioned countless times there's nothing to his claims... and even reading the posts of supporters of the notion of a 'stolen election' here on TN their arguments are the epitome of shifting the goal lines) but because he's petty and self-righteous. 

So far this isn't a crusade against Conservatives... it's an effort to shut down one man who is doing nothing but make things worse at a time when a lot of things already suck.  I've always argued DC isn't run by the Left, Right, Socialists, or Christian Conservatives... it's run by the money of special interests.  Those special interests are afraid of where the world is going economically and they're finally taking a stand.  It's not right they have all that power, and I'm all for curtailing it (and have said as much over the years), but in this instance it's one of those moments where the crackdown on Trump highlights even a broken clock is right twice a day.

And had it stopped where you are suggesting I would have been fine with it.  I think the election is questionable.  I think Trump had little actual evidence and portrayed it to his followers as if he had more.  He was his usual hyperbolic self is whipping his followers up which was a poor idea when he didn't have the goods.  He misread the room so to speak with his rally and I think he hasn't realized that his rallies aren't just because they "love" him, they are also because many of them fear, dislike, or outright hate his enemies.  It was a powder keg and frankly I think it speaks to the vast majority of his followers that they DIDN'T burn the place to the ground.  

However, here is where I feel your narrative and much of the left's is falling down.  They didn't just cancel Trump.  They have kicked off 70,000 Twitter accounts including many prominent conservative voices who weren't Trump groupies.  They attacked and tried to kill Parler for ostensibly doing the things that it is now learned Twitter and Facebook actually did.  Multiple conservative and gun enthusiast website have lost servers.  Banks and major companies are going after Republicans not named Trump.  Jack of Twitter is on tape saying this is just the beginning.  Trump is neutered counting down the hours and they are still cancelling away.  

Everybody wants to go down the Orange-man bad route.  It is not that, they are going after the people who were supportive of him, even those not supportive of his actions recently.  To pretend that this is the left just isolating the threat of Trump is simply a lie.  

BTW, it's why I've been calling them the elites, it is not just the Dems but the elites in charge on both sides of the aisle, big business and so on.  

[Der Zeitgeist]

19 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

They didn't just cancel Trump.  They have kicked off 70,000 Twitter accounts including many prominent conservative voices who weren't Trump groupies.  They attacked and tried to kill Parler for ostensibly doing the things that it is now learned Twitter and Facebook actually did.  Multiple conservative and gun enthusiast website have lost servers.  Banks and major companies are going after Republicans not named Trump. Jack of Twitter is on tape saying this is just the beginning.

What else are they going to do? They have to protect their own businesses from getting embroiled in what is essentially a very large counterterrorism investigation. The attack on the Capitol isn't just your standard rioting situation with implications for local or regional law enforcement, but a national security issue, with the entire US post-9/11 security apparatus now shifting gears to legitimize its own existence at the beginning of the Biden presidency.

If you're a social media company or someone doing business with one, of course you're going to shut accounts or customers down, everything else would be suicide. The idea that these huge tech companies want to ban conservative accounts is absurd. They have been profiting from MAGA users for years now. Trump wouldn't be president if it weren't for Facebook and Twitter. No one likes to lose customers and that sweet ad money they bring in, there's just no other choice.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Der Zeitgeist

[nitflegal]

Man it's weird how the narrative shifts. . .

https://justthenews.com/nation/crime/fbi-agent-says-progressive-activist-was-participating-capitol-riot

A progressive activist has been arrested and charged with participating in last week's U.S. Capitol riot a week after he uploaded footage of the event to YouTube.

Utah resident and anti-Trump activist John Sullivan told Just the News last week that he had been present at the riot, including inside the Capitol, "specifically [as] a journalist, just to record the events that were going down."

Yet FBI agent Matthew Foulger alleged in an affidavit on Wednesday that, rather than merely act as a journalist during the riots, Sullivan "knowingly and willfully joined a crowd of individuals who forcibly entered the U.S. Capitol and impeded, disrupted, and disturbed the orderly conduct of business by the United States House of Representatives and the United States Senate."

Foulger in the affidavit said that footage taken by Sullivan at the riot shows the activist accompanying and cheering on the rioting crowd by saying things such as "Let’s go. This shit is ours!" and "Let's burn this shit down." 

Sullivan has been arrested and charged pursuant to the incident, Salt Lake City station Fox 13 reported on Thursday evening. The station said the activist has been charged with "rioting and criminal mischief." 

Sullivan did not immediately respond to a query from Just the News on Thursday.

[nitflegal]

Just now, Der Zeitgeist said:

What else are they going to do? They have to protect their own businesses from getting embroiled in what is essentially a very large counterterrorism investigation. The attack on the Capitol isn't just your standard rioting situation with implications for local or regional law enforcement, but a national security issue, with the entire US post-9/11 security apparatus now shifting into gear to legitimize its own existance at the beginning of the Biden presidency.

If you're a social media company or someone doing business with one, of course you're going to shut accounts or customers down, everything else would be suicide. The idea that these huge tech companies want to ban conservative accounts is absurd. They have been profiting from MAGA users for years now. Trump wouldn't be president if it weren't for Facebook and Twitter. No one likes to lose customers and that sweet ad money they bring in, there's just no other choice.

I dunno, if you are correct that, for instance, Apple and Google kicked off Parler's app because of counter-terrorism fears than do you think they will likewise cancel the Twitter and Facebook apps for being where the capitol attack was planned?  If it's a liability issue than Facebook and Twitter are much more dangerous.  

[BansheeOne]

4 hours ago, sunday said:

Looks like the invasion of the Capitol was organized by CNN. Waiting for Twitter to cancel their accounts...
 

That's either a negligent or more likely intentional misrepresentation. Sullivan and Sacker were jointly interviewed on CNN, but while the latter is a freelance photojournalist, she wasn't the interviewer or a reporter for CNN in that segment. 

I see Antifa/BLM are busy disavowing Sullivan now, too; they seem to want to imply they consider him to have been a right-wing agent provocateur at their events. Maybe he's just a professional provocateur for hire, or he doesn't care about the color of the shit he stirs, or he has plain forgotten whether he is a double, triple or quadruple agent now. 😁 

[Stuart Galbraith]

He is probably just Naval Intelligence like Oswald, keeping busy till a position in a book depository comes up.

[Der Zeitgeist]

25 minutes ago, nitflegal said:

I dunno, if you are correct that, for instance, Apple and Google kicked off Parler's app because of counter-terrorism fears than do you think they will likewise cancel the Twitter and Facebook apps for being where the capitol attack was planned?  If it's a liability issue than Facebook and Twitter are much more dangerous.  

Nah, they can't just "cancel" Facebook and Twitter, they're much too big and the MAGA user base is just a tiny part that they can address with changes in their moderation algorithms or policies. Parler was an easy target, because it was the semi-official exile for Trump supporters, and by shutting it down, they only hit this group of people.

When the Biden administration is in office and the congressional hearings for the events at the Capitol begin, Google, Apple, Facebook and Twitter want to be in a position where they can testify that they addressed the issues by themselves and no further government intervention is necessary. That's the entire reason for this current crackdown.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Der Zeitgeist

[Angrybk]

Elephant in the Room is that if you seriously believe the election was a fraud then storming the Capitol is the appropriate response. I completely believe the election was not stolen so I regard these people as misguided as best, traitors at worst. If not for Raffensperger et al there would probably be a different crowd storming the Capitol. 

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

He is perfectly free to reply to any damn thread he pleases. Stop being so damn patronizing.

Yes he is but if it bothers him so much then why come to a thread dedicated to Trump to whine? Just don't click on it.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, sunday said:

So, among a multitude of tens of thousands there were some non law abiding individuals, according to you.

Does that means that all the demonstrators were not law abiding people for you?

What does mean "that the will hold"? Are you falling to the dumbing-down effects of TDS, too?

 

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, nitflegal said:

My natural assumption is that in a violent crowd at least one person intends to cause at the least physical harm to the occupants.  Especially when whipped into a frenzy and taking part in a mob.  I have assumed that the guy with a belt full of zip ties was either commando Larping or had intentions of at least holding officials hostage.

This is why encouraging violent protests that are effectively mobs has been such a stupid idea since the left burned parts of many cities to celebrate Trump's election.  Mobs are a scientifically proven way to take angry but decent people and turn them into monsters.  I have no doubt there were conservatives in that mob who were ready to cause harm to people and that could easily escalate to death.  I am totally fine with throwing those people in prison.  I will not pretend that this was a surprising organic result.  Not when the elites and the media have been teaching us that, even in a pandemic when they will be the much-feared super-spreader events, that violent protests that destroy property, injure officers, and murder people on the other side and at random are appropriate and viable means of affecting political discourse.  I think people are so wrapped up in hatred of Trump that, just like conservatives trying to claim that the capitol protest was made up of angels and antifa operatives, they are scrambling to excuse awful behavior.

How about this, conservatives have been peacefully protesting for years.  They had the tea party where they peacefully went and protested and picked up their trash when they left.  They got targeted by the IRS, vilified as actual Nazi's and white supremacists, and shut down.  Then you had Trump rallies; angrier, more chaotic but still peaceful and they cleaned up after themselves.  The result?  Their guy was called a Nazi, they were called a Nazi and in an election where several swing states unconstitutionally changed their voting methods in ways predicted to favor Democrats and when damaging stories that polls indicate would have swung the election were actively suppressed they saw power go to the people who are actively calling themselves their enemy.  Then they had a GA election to decide the fate of the country (and put up sh*t candidates to be fair) where one was a racist, who ran a youth camp where child abuse happened and was on video as his wife told police he was an abuser and all of that got suppressed again so that the Democrats control the agenda completely with only their rather tarnished respect for the rules and norms to keep them in check.  

The left used political violence (and we have the VP and House speaker actively encouraging this violence by speech and actions) to beat the Republicans and have demonstrated that it is effective.  They have demonstrated that traditional non-violent conservative protests accomplish nothing. That lesson has been learned by the right and every action taken to further scare or step on them will simply increase the drive to violence on their side as well.

Not to share too much but that whole Facebook narcing on my account?  They also sent my daughters' Instagram page links.  Presumably to let me know that they knew who my daughters were.  Ask yourself who I might be willing to vote for moving forward when the tolerant left is implicitly threatening my children and my livelihood.  And I'm the rational conservative. . .

Yes.