Because Trump 2.0

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Personally I don't think he said it, but if he did, he didn't mean it, and if he meant it, he was only being ironic.

 

But play with the thought that he really did say it. At what point will servicemen in here feel the need to admit their fallen comrades actually were losers - just to protect Trump?

[sunday]

8 minutes ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

Personally I don't think he said it, but if he did, he didn't mean it, and if he meant it, he was only being ironic.

 

But play with the thought that he really did say it. At what point will servicemen in here feel the need to admit their fallen comrades actually were losers - just to protect Trump?

Better not, less someone start to write things about anyone's personal shortcomings, even if only lies are written.

Things that are not proven did not happen.

Edited September 9, 2020 by sunday

[Der Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

But play with the thought that he really did say it. At what point will servicemen in here feel the need to admit their fallen comrades actually were losers - just to protect Trump?

We already have all kinds of insane mental gymnastics going on with the Trump supporters on this forum on other issues, so that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Just watch the progression of attitudes on things like the North Korean nuclear program which went from "should have bombed them to the stoneage a long time ago" to "well, we couldn't get the to give up their nukes, but their nukes aren't really our problem anyway" within just a few months.

It's great that with the new forum, we finally have a working search function that allows us to track the progression of Trumper lunacy much easier than before. 😅

[JasonJ]

31 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

We already have all kinds of insane mental gymnastics going on with the Trump supporters on this forum on other issues, so that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Just watch the progression of attitudes on things like the North Korean nuclear program which went from "should have bombed them to the stoneage a long time ago" to "well, we couldn't get the to give up their nukes, but their nukes aren't really our problem anyway" within just a few months.

It's great that with the new forum, we finally have a working search function that allows us to track the progression of Trumper lunacy much easier than before. 😅

The progression of events regarding North Korea is outlined here, among many things to point out, but the whole ordeal went for more than a few months: https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/42678-because-trump-20/&do=findComment&comment=1494486

[Murph]

Trump's problem is that he went against the Generals and war hawks in DC who were making money on endless, useless wars and deployments to places such as Europe.  A good question: Why are we will in Germany 75 years after the war ended?  The same question goes to other countries.  Russia is a paper tiger, but China is a massive threat thanks to Nixon, Clinton, Bush 43, Obama-Biden.  

[Ssnake]

3 minutes ago, Murph said:

A good question: Why are we will in Germany 75 years after the war ended?

Because Germany is a great hub for your military logistics, useful for any operation (be it military or covert) in or close to the European theater. Because you're a superpower with global interests. Because it gives you leverage in European politics. IOW, because it serves your interests.

But, go ahead and shoot your foot.

[Adam_S]

Well in fairness he's done at least as much as Obama to deserve one.

https://www.9news.com.au/world/donald-trump-nobel-peace-prize-2021-nomination-israel-uae-peace-deal-middle-east-us-politics/955d05ee-b98a-4f39-aee7-474773ad9f74?ocid=Social-9News

 

United States President Donald Trump has been reportedly nominated for the 2021 Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to broker diplomatic ties between Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

Trump was nominated by Christian Tybrin-Gjedde, a member of the Norwegian Parliament, Fox News has reported.

"For his merit, I think he has done more trying to create peace between nations than most other Peace Prize nominees," Tybrin-Gjedde told Fox.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Adam_S

[Murph]

32 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Because Germany is a great hub for your military logistics, useful for any operation (be it military or covert) in or close to the European theater. Because you're a superpower with global interests. Because it gives you leverage in European politics. IOW, because it serves your interests.

But, go ahead and shoot your foot.

Poland works just as well, but once more I see no reason to defend Europe any longer, they have recovered from WWII, and are big boys and girls now.  On the political side you are right we have to keep Europeans from selling out the West to every slimball terrorist supporting nation out there, plus without us holding their feet to the fire the Anti-semites would have been able to fully support Iran and their ilk in destroying Israel.  

[Murph]

19 minutes ago, Adam_S said:

Well in fairness he's done at least as much as Obama to deserve one.

https://www.9news.com.au/world/donald-trump-nobel-peace-prize-2021-nomination-israel-uae-peace-deal-middle-east-us-politics/955d05ee-b98a-4f39-aee7-474773ad9f74?ocid=Social-9News

 

United States President Donald Trump has been reportedly nominated for the 2021 Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to broker diplomatic ties between Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

Trump was nominated by Christian Tybrin-Gjedde, a member of the Norwegian Parliament, Fox News has reported.

"For his merit, I think he has done more trying to create peace between nations than most other Peace Prize nominees," Tybrin-Gjedde told Fox.

Never happen.  He actually accomplished something, to get a Nobel, you have to be an empty suit like Obama and only have negative results.

[Der Zeitgeist]

40 minutes ago, Murph said:

Poland works just as well, but once more I see no reason to defend Europe any longer, they have recovered from WWII, and are big boys and girls now.

OK, bye.

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Because Germany is a great hub for your military logistics, useful for any operation (be it military or covert) in or close to the European theater. Because you're a superpower with global interests. Because it gives you leverage in European politics. IOW, because it serves your interests.

But, go ahead and shoot your foot.

I'll grant you to a certain extent it serves the interests of the military industrial complex, but the remaining US military footprint in Germany is so pitifully small as to have become a burden to US interests.  Was the time, with a greater presence, that the US had some leverage.  What remains now is a jobs program for the local communities in Grafenwoehr and Landstuhl. 

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Never happen.  He actually accomplished something, to get a Nobel, you have to be an empty suit like Obama and only have negative results.

Carrying a sickle and hammer banner probably wouldn't hurt.

[Der Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

I'll grant you to a certain extent it serves the interests of the military industrial complex, but the remaining US military footprint in Germany is so pitifully small as to have become a burden to US interests.  Was the time, with a greater presence, that the US had some leverage.  What remains now is a jobs program for the local communities in Grafenwoehr and Landstuhl. 

If you think so, then just leave, so we can end this ridiculous discussion.

You guys were already supposed to be leaving 20 years ago, when we had the exact same type of debate.

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

Personally I don't think he said it, but if he did, he didn't mean it, and if he meant it, he was only being ironic.

 

But play with the thought that he really did say it. At what point will servicemen in here feel the need to admit their fallen comrades actually were losers - just to protect Trump?

Assuming it were true, (no evidence yet), are you saying that Trump supporters are too stupid to be able to be pissed off at Trump for that one thing, but still conclude overall that they need to support Trump because Biden is weak?  Or, are you saying that Trump supporters should not be granted the privilege of having a nuanced viewpoint?

 

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Because Germany is a great hub for your military logistics, useful for any operation (be it military or covert) in or close to the European theater. Because you're a superpower with global interests. Because it gives you leverage in European politics. IOW, because it serves your interests.

But, go ahead and shoot your foot.

Being in Germany must serve American interests if a German tells me it does  I believe an Israeli was telling me the exact same thing about their country the other day.

I told you five years ago what US interests actually are with Europe.  They are to encourage the Europeans to take responsibility for their own security by creating more unity between the armed forces and command structures of the European nations.  The more the US withdraws from Europe, the more the Europeans will have to do this. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by glenn239
Tweaking message.

[Der Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, glenn239 said:

I told you five years ago what US interests actually are with Europe.  They are to encourage the Europeans to take responsibility for their own security by creating more unity between the armed forces and command structures of the European nations.  The more the US withdraws from Europe, the more the Europeans will have to do this. 

That's funny, I heard the same kind of talk in in the 2000 presidential campaign. Yet here we are, still having the same silly debate 20 years later.

If the US wants to pull out of Germany, they can go right ahead. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[glenn239]

Just now, Der Zeitgeist said:

That's funny, I heard the same kind of talk in in the 2000 presidential campaign. Yet here we are, still having the same silly debate 20 years later.

If the US wants to pull out of Germany, they can go right ahead. I'm not holding my breath, though.

Do you think debates on important questions of foreign policy have some sort of time limit to them?   

US interests will be served for the forseeable future by having some level of military integration with Europe.  It's just that the US will provide the 'big' stuff like Space Force and strategic warfare capacity, and the Europeans can do the bitch work like crawling through ditches with a rifle.

[Der Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

Do you think debates on important questions of foreign policy have some sort of time limit to them?  

What I'm saying is it's hard to take these points seriously when the US spends decades arguing about leaving  without ever doing so.

They should spend less time talking about it and more time simply doing it.

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Der Zeitgeist

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

Poland works just as well [...]

Probably does, except that you'd have to rebuild all the infrastructure that is already in place - Rhein-Main Airbase, NATO fuel pipeline, ammo stockpiles, barracks, CMTC, ...

But yeah - from a security/strategic point of view, little difference. But note that "just as well" is quite notably "not better", so shifting US installations into pretty much any other European country is only going to cost you more for no gain, except maybe making a point to a US domestic audience that is ready to be duped into believing that "Germany isn't paying its bills" (I agree that Germany isn't investing as much into defence as it should, but at least we did raise the defence budget considerably over the past six years).

Oh, and yes: You can also intimidate the mayors of Grafenwöhr and a number of other smaller communities by moving the US presence to another European country.

 

Pulling out of Europe is a totally different decision however. Yes, I admit it, I'd rather have you Americans in Europe than Putin, or Chicoms calling the shots. Europe can be your asset, or become one of your adversaries' - you choose. What Europe will not become is a federacy of states with a unified political and military command structure - and if it did, you'd elect us as your next enemy No. 1 I suppose.

The US American debate about involvement in Europe is highly schizophrenic, to put it mildly. You want a Europe that is no longer dependent on US security guarantees but which will unquestioningly support each and any stupid foreign policy decision that a new US government might make, be is (D) or (R) led. You want Europe to consolidate its defense efforts, and you'll wail about a European Army that is intended only to undermine NATO whenever this phantom debate is making another round. Europe is irrelevant, but also fails to support you. Europe is arrogant - and too dependent on US support at the same time. Europe is your biggest trade partner, but somehow its cars are a threat to your national security.

This debate is farcical at best. You're keeping your forces in Europe because it serves your own interests. Nothing wrong about that. I have no idea why you feel that you need to conceal it. The same applies to Japan, or Korea, or Taiwan. You're there because it helps you with China (and Russia, and that fat little pissant Kim).

[Der Zeitgeist]

25 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

This debate is farcical at best. You're keeping your forces in Europe because it serves your own interests. Nothing wrong about that. I have no idea why you feel that you need to conceal it.

Because this is about grievances, nothing more.

The centerpiece of "America First" Trumpism is the idea that the US is constantly being taken advantage of by other countries, especially by its Allies. Everything that seems to contradict this idea has to be concealed or it would question the narrative. Simple as that.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Der Zeitgeist

[seahawk]

Withdrawing all troops from Germany is a must for the second term of president Trump.

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

...Yes, I admit it, I'd rather have you Americans in Europe than Putin, or Chicoms calling the shots...

If the united Europe, dwarfing the economy of Russia can not handle Putin... It deserves whatever it has coming and Americans can not save it. If the Europe is unwilling - Americans can not provide will other than to threat Europe as a semi-colony.

"I have bought you weapons, I can not buy you balls" as one semi-forgotten local politician noted in the 1990s.

Edited September 9, 2020 by bojan

[Jeff]

14 hours ago, R011 said:

Bolton did, in fact, hear Kelly say the trip was cancelled by Marine One staff due to weather and they needed to so inform the president.   This means that claim is a lie.

If Trump was as much in the habit of denigrating serving personnel as claimed then someone close to him, like Bolton and others, would have heard it and the story leaked years ago.

Kelly's deputy, who briefed the president about the weather postponement,  also said "do you really think Kelly would sit still for one minute if Trump called dead Marines "stupid", etc. ?".

[R011]

8 hours ago, Stefan Fredriksson said:

Personally I don't think he said it, but if he did, he didn't mean it, and if he meant it, he was only being ironic.

 

But play with the thought that he really did say it. At what point will servicemen in here feel the need to admit their fallen comrades actually were losers - just to protect Trump?

Why stop there?  Lets pretend Trump said "let's kill all the Jews" or" lets start turning babies into Soylent Green after sexually abusing them"?

[Stuart Galbraith]

6 hours ago, Murph said:

Poland works just as well, but once more I see no reason to defend Europe any longer, they have recovered from WWII, and are big boys and girls now.  On the political side you are right we have to keep Europeans from selling out the West to every slimball terrorist supporting nation out there, plus without us holding their feet to the fire the Anti-semites would have been able to fully support Iran and their ilk in destroying Israel.  

You can't base permanently in Poland without breaking a handshake agreement with the Russians to not base further east than Germany.

If you won't help defend Europe, why will Europe help you fight the next I'll advised war in the Middle East? Because they wont.

There are only two nuclear powers in Europe. The British are broke, and the French can't be relied upon. And that is why Americans in Europe are valuable.