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Himalaya Border Disputes Between India And China


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Just as plausibly, the Indians realized that nobody in the first world really gives a shit about their border disputes with China.

 

Not enough to make a ripple in the global economic balance at least.

 

Not only others do not care for it, neither does the other real party in the dispute -- Bhutan. The area in question is already unofficially settled when China is willing to trade larger disputed area for it. Bhutan wanted the territorial dispute with China to be settle as quick as possible so it can establish official diplomatic ties with China. However, India had repeated tried to sabotage the settlement -- issue of Doklam, for example, is raised only midway in the discussion, when a previous proposal was about to be agreed to. Do note that Bhutan has never directly state that they asked India to intervene in this, and India didn't even bother to ask Bhutan before they send the troops. Indian diplomacy in its own neighborhood is actually quite aggressive, even colonial in terms of temperament, much more so compare to China.

Edited by nemo
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Some Indian politician (I guess of noteworthiness, maybe not) asking what is Modi's plan beyond chest thumping about Doklam.

 

 


New Delhi—The Congress has asked Prime Minister Narendra Modi to "explain" to the nation what was happening at Doklam and state his government's policy on the issue.

Rahul Gandhi took a swipe at the Prime Minister, demanding an explanation about the new road construction being undertaken by China instead of continuing with his "chest thumping".

Congress spokesperson Kapil Sibal asked Modi to explain his policy to deal with the issue and whether he intended to invite Chinese President Xi Jinping to Sabarmati again.

The comments came a day after sources confirmed that China maintained a sizeable presence of troops near the site of the Doklam standoff with India and had now started widening a road, around 12 km from the area of conflict.

"Modiji, once you're done thumping your chest, could you please explain this?" Mr Gandhi tweeted, tagging an NDTV news report headlined, "With 500 Soldiers On Guard, China Expands Road In Doklam".

At the All India Congress Committee (AICC) briefing, Sibal said, "Your (PM Modi's) meeting was good, but what was the result of it and what is happening about it. Please tell the country as to what is happening at the border, especially along the Dokalam plateau."

"What is going to be your policy in this regard and whether you will again invite President Xi to Sabarmati for a swing with him," the former minister asked.

Sibal asked what was happening in Doklam today and said it is "very disappointing" that Prime Minister Modi met Chinese President Xi at the BRICS Summit and there was a lot of talk about the meeting that would help ease the border tension with China as Chinese troops had withdrawn and so had India, removed their equipment and this matter will not be escalated further.

"But what we are hearing now is that in the Doklam plateau near the trijunction and 10 km from the chicken neck, a new road is being constructed and the same equipment is being used there. Reports also say that some 500 to 1,000 Chinese soldiers are also deployed there," he said.

The Congress leader also referrd to the statement of Army Chief Gen Bipin Rawat who said that the Chinese will be doing excursions and "we should be ready for that".

Troops of India and China were locked in a 73-day standoff in Dokalam that began from June 16 over road construction activity at the India-Bhutan-China trijunction.

The tension eased after talks between top officials of both the countries.
The Congress, in an article put out on its website, also said that the fresh Doklam development underscores that deft diplomacy was not practiced and requires an explanation from the government.

The article said that the news that China has stationed over 1,500 troops in close proximity to the standoff zone makes warnings given out by Congress leaders earlier sound prophetic.

"In the absence of the NDA government not clarifying particulars as to the de-escalation, this fresh development looks alarming and underscores that deft diplomacy was not practiced," the article stated.
It said that Indian surveillance has reportedly detected new bunkers, and some road re-laying has also been done in the vicinity. China is reportedly using the road construction materials it brought to Doklam, to strengthen infrastructure in the environs of the standoff zone.

The Congress said it is widely evident that a build-up of roads and bunkers is a step towards China's stated goal to "exercise its sovereign rights" in the region.

It said Army Chief Rawat has termed these as 'salami slicing tactics' and warned that continued tensions may snowball into a larger conflict.
In military parlance, 'salami slicing' is a series of many minor actions, often performed by covert means, that as an accumulated whole produce a much larger result that would otherwise be difficult to execute all at once.

The Congress article said in September, China also opened a strategic highway to Nepal via Tibet and China's state-run Global Times alarmingly stated that this highway is just a "forerunner" to a railway link.
It said as per a recent report, China is reinforcing its claim on the Doklam territory by upgrading the road around 10-km north and east of the earlier face-off site.

"One cannot be sure whether these events had been discussed on the table during the standoff. If it is so, then a legitimate question arises, what all concessions have the government made to the Chinese to solve the crisis?

"Is this just the tip of the iceberg? If instead, the government is getting cold feet, then China's salami tactics are working," the article said.

 

 

https://kashmirobserver.net/2017/regional-news/rahul-wants-modi-explain-chinas-road-construction-doklam-24098

Edited by JasonJ
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Just as plausibly, the Indians realized that nobody in the first world really gives a shit about their border disputes with China.

 

Not enough to make a ripple in the global economic balance at least.

 

Not only others do not care for it, neither does the other real party in the dispute -- Bhutan. The area in question is already unofficially settled when China is willing to trade larger disputed area for it. Bhutan wanted the territorial dispute with China to be settle as quick as possible so it can establish official diplomatic ties with China. However, India had repeated tried to sabotage the settlement -- issue of Doklam, for example, is raised only midway in the discussion, when a previous proposal was about to be agreed to. Do note that Bhutan has never directly state that they asked India to intervene in this, and India didn't even bother to ask Bhutan before they send the troops. Indian diplomacy in its own neighborhood is actually quite aggressive, even colonial in terms of temperament, much more so compare to China.

 

As I'd observed in my earlier post about my trip to Nepal, India is not the benevolent giant neighbor for the region. In fact, with their caste system firmly in place, they are not a pleasant lot when they feel you are inferior to them.

 

China for the time being is eager to please and throw money about. So Bhutan is in a hurry to go git some.

 

Bhutanese and Nepalese are so pathetically poor many families have to sell their daughters into prostitution in India.

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  • 7 months later...

Modi has visited Xi

politics

Sudden Modi-Xi Meeting Signals Diplomatic Thaw Between Neighbors

Bloomberg News

  • Prime minister’s ‘informal summit’ trip announced late Sunday
  • Meeting set to start Friday in central Chinese city of Wuhan

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi will travel to meet Chinese President Xi Jinping this week, as world’s two most-populous countries seek to reduce tensions after a tense border dispute last year.

The “informal summit” between Xi and Modi will be held Friday and Saturday in Wuhan, the capital of the central province of Hubei, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said Sunday at a news conference with India External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj.

The meeting is part of an intensifying dialogue between the two leaders whose countries comprise more than one-third of the world’s population and 18 percent of global gross domestic product. It comes as both powers seek to reduce risk in their regional environments as China faces down U.S. President Donald Trump’s threaten trade actions and Modi seeks to keep India’s economy on track ahead of the 2019 election.

“It is very rare for two major countries like China and India to meet together so frequently,” said Qian Feng, a researcher on international relations with Tsinghua University in Beijing. “For both sides, a peaceful border and a mutually beneficial trading partnership are obviously more in line with their interests. For this reason, the two sides are tacitly recovering bilateral relations rapidly.”

Global Turbulence

Xi and Modi met last September and are scheduled to meet again in June for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization meeting in China’s eastern port city of Qingdao. Both leaders have strong domestic reasons to put tensions aside.

“For China, the ongoing trade war with the U.S. prompted Beijing to adopt a more sensible attitude towards India,” Qian said, adding that Modi’s economic and social reforms have slowed. “The turbulent global economic situation has increased economic risk in India.”

The countries’ foreign ministers emphasized the broader strategic context behind the meeting. Xi and Modi would have “communications of a strategic nature concerning big changes happening in the world,” Wang told reporters in Beijing. “They will also exchange views on overall, long-term and strategic matters concerning the future of China-India relations.”

The two sides are setting aside formalities for the meeting in the hope of a breakthrough before border tensions resurface, according to Shailesh Kumar, political risk firm Eurasia Group’s Asia director.

“The informal nature and timing of the summit indicates that first, both sides want to be able to discuss all topics in a free and cordial manner without the standard formalities,” Kumar said. “Second, they want to meet before the summer, when many worry tensions between both armies in the mountain areas could rise again as the weather is less hostile.”

The move toward rapprochement was facilitated by a meeting between Xi and Modi last September, when they held their first talks since defusing a border stand-off in remote region between India, Bhutan and China’s Tibet region. Swaraj, the Indian foreign minister, described peace and tranquility on the countries’ border areas as an “essential prerequisite for the smooth development of bilateral relations.”

Easing Tensions

The summit was good news in the short-term for investors in Asia, Kumar said. “Priorities will be to build deeper ties to mitigate any security related disagreements while also establishing a framework to handle any issues as they arise,” he said.

Longer term, though, differences between the two powers are likely to resurface. “Distrust is high and tensions will remain, particularly given China’s financial involvement in Pakistan, which India sees as a strategic rather than economic engagement that can hurt India,” Kumar said.

Tensions have lingered since China defeated India in a brief border war in 1962. The residence of the Tibetan religious leader, the Dalai Lama, in the mountain town of Dharamsala in Northern India has also long angered Beijing.

They’ve been exacerbated by Beijing’s rapid expansion of its political and economic ties in India’s backyard through Xi’s ambitious Belt and Road infrastructure initiative. Projects include railway building in Pakistan and port projects in Sri Lanka.

Against that backdrop, former Indian foreign secretary S. Jaishankar told India’s Asian News International that the summit was “certainly a very bold step.”

“The fact that they have agreed on an informal summit shows that the two leaders realize the importance of this relationship,” he said. “They have taken on the responsibility themselves on putting it on a better course.”

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/india-s-modi-to-visit-china-s-xi-in-new-sign-of-diplomatic-thaw

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  • 5 weeks later...

while Trump and the other G7 do their dance with yesnoyesno, China and India setlle their border disagreements and broaden their relation. Including more bollywood films in PRC cinemas. (and more kung fu in India) :D

Modi, Xi focus on border peace, better communication between militaries

The “informal” nature of the summit meant that PM Modi and President Xi Jinping were not expected to talk specifics but it was evident that the leaders had reached a consensus not to allow the festering border dispute to hijack ties.



Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Xi Jinping on Saturday agreed on steps aimed at strengthening communications and building trust between the militaries of India and China, a move aimed at effectively managing differences on the border and averting a Doklam-like stand-off.

At the end of their first informal summit in this central Chinese city, the two leaders also reached an agreement on jointly implementing an economic project in war-torn Afghanistan — a clear indication of their desire to play a larger role in shaping the regional security scenario.

At separate briefings after the summit, neither foreign secretary Vijay Gokhale nor Chinese vice foreign minister Kong Xuanyou mentioned last year’s Doklam standoff, but it was clear the two leaders favoured strategic restraint along the 3,488-km border and did not want a repeat of the face-off that sent ties plummeting.

Modi and Xi met six times since Friday afternoon, four of which were one-on-one sessions, with officials describing it as a meeting of equals. There were also acknowledgements that the two sides were prepared to deal with differences and each other’s concerns.

The two leaders issued a “strategic guidance to their…militaries to strengthen communication in order to build trust and mutual understanding and enhance predictability and effectiveness in the management of border affairs”, an Indian statement said.

“There is a commitment on both sides to suggest to the two militaries that they need to ensure that existing confidence building measures and existing institutional mechanisms are utilised more effectively,” Gokhale said after the end of the two-day “milestone” summit.

Gokhale’s remarks were echoed by Kong, who told Chinese journalists: “The two countries also agreed to enhance military and security communication mechanisms.” He hinted at the possible setting up of a military hotline.

The implementation and strengthening of existing arrangements and information-sharing mechanisms by the militaries of the two countries will help “prevent and manage incidents in border regions”, the Indian side said.

“The two leaders expressed their support for the work of the Special Representatives on the India-China boundary question and urged them to intensify their efforts to seek a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable settlement,” Gokhale said.

The joint project in Afghanistan, the details of which were not immediately available, marks the first coordinated effort by New Delhi and Beijing in the war-ravaged country. It is unlikely to go down well with China’s close ally Pakistan, which has for long called for an end to India’s role in Afghanistan.
The informal nature of the summit meant Modi and Xi were not expected to talk specifics, but it was evident they had reached consensus on not allowing the festering border dispute to hijack ties.
To say the two countries reset their chequered ties over just two days of meetings would be an exaggeration, observers noted. But what the meetings seem to have done is inject a much-needed shot of optimism into bilateral ties.
The focus on enhancing “strategic communication” indicates both India and China are looking at each other as potential partners.
And strengthening such communications will not remain limited to the military. Modi and Xi agreed on the need to “strengthen strategic communication through greater consultation on all matters of common interest”.
Expectedly, the talks involved Xi’s legacy venture, the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), but China appeared to have come to terms with India’s concerns over the mega-connectivity and transit project as it did not try to pressure New Delhi into joining it.
“China does not think it is important whether India accepts China’s Belt and Road infrastructure project and China won’t force it to,” Kong said, while briefing Chinese reporters.
Kong acknowledged that China and India have concrete differences but noted the “summit was not aimed at addressing these specific issues”. He also pointed out that Xi had said the problems between the two sides “are of a limited, temporary nature”.
Kong and Gokhale could well have been speaking in diplomatic tandem when talking about handling the differences.

“They [Modi and Xi] agreed that both sides have the maturity and wisdom to handle the differences through peaceful discussion within the context of the overall relationship, bearing in mind the importance of respecting each other’s sensitivities, concerns and aspirations,” Gokhale said.
He said the two leaders also recognised the “common threat posed by terrorism, and reiterated their strong condemnation of and resolute opposition to terrorism in all its forms and manifestations”. Gokhale added: “They committed themselves to cooperate on counter-terrorism.”
According to the Indian statement, Modi and Xi agreed on building an open, multi-polar and participatory global economic order and said peaceful and stable India-China ties will be positive for stability amid global uncertainties.

They also believed the informal summit offered an opportunity for free and candid exchanges and agreed on the utility of holding more such dialogues in future.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/modi-xi-focus-on-border-peace-better-communication-between-militaries/story-vZFXaH4c8jl1yrxAEznLgJ.html

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

A day's worth of face off scuffle between the two in the same area of Doklam but tensions cool with follow up delegation-level talks.

 

 

 

Tensions along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) flared up on Wednesday following a face-off between Indian and Chinese troops in eastern Ladakh. The standoff that lasted a day, however, ended after delegation-level talks were held.

The Indian and Chinese troops were reportedly engaged in a confrontation near the northern bank of the Pangong lake in Ladakh, two-thirds of which is controlled by China.

Army sources said tensions escalated when Indian troops on patrol were confronted by the soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army of China. This resulted in a scuffle with the two sides sending more soldiers to the area, sources added.

"There was a face-off between the two armies but it got over after the delegation-level talks between two sides. The face-off is over now and it had de-escalated and disengaged fully after delegation-level talks yesterday [Wednesday]," the Indian Army said.

Incidentally, the confrontation took place in the same area where Indian and Chinese troops had engaged in a bitter scuffle during the Doklam standoff.

The Indian Army has said similar incidents can take place along the LAC in view of its exercise next month.

The Army had on Wednesday announced its plan to hold an exercise in Arunachal Pradesh. The Indian Army had said war games will be organised in Arunachal Pradesh starting October in which the Indian Air Force and the Army will jointly exercise real war scenario inside the Indian territory.

This comes around a month ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping on October 10-12 near Chennai. Line of Actual Control (LAC) stability and trade ties are likely to be the focus of discussion when PM Modi meets Xi Jinping.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/india-china-army-ladakh-face-off-confrontation-1598214-2019-09-12

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  • 9 months later...

Panzermann's post didn't quite hold up on this one...

Sort of like with "making-up" with DPRK, so yeah, hard to expect it hold.

 

It's still been much worse recently between India and Pakistan with the Kashmir region.

Edited by JasonJ
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If it's true that the Chinese actively hunted down and beat the Indians to death with barbed wire studded batons, can someone explain again how we're supposed to treat them as friends?

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“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

Albert Einstein

 

Think the Chinese jumped a step or two there....

 

First of all, I wonder why you refer to this case as “Chinese jumped a step” – as it takes two to tango, and the scale of losses from both sides (reported) indicate it was sort of Gangs of New York organized battle, not ambush or surprise attack on small group. Second, imagine degree of discipline and bravery required from soldiers from both sides (nuclear powers) to go into planned hand to hand combat with improvised weapons and without firearms while knowing it will be deadly dangerous fight and they will face potentially firearm-armed enemy. Nobody sneaked in firearm for self-protection in case of grave danger, handfight continued even despite dozens from each side were killed. It is far above handfights between Soviet and Chinese border guards on Amur ice in 1960th, both in terms of scale and intensity. Not sure modern “white men” armies are able to do that.

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“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

Albert Einstein

 

Think the Chinese jumped a step or two there....

 

First of all, I wonder why you refer to this case as “Chinese jumped a step” – as it takes two to tango, and the scale of losses from both sides (reported) indicate it was sort of Gangs of New York organized battle, not ambush or surprise attack on small group. Second, imagine degree of discipline and bravery required from soldiers from both sides (nuclear powers) to go into planned hand to hand combat with improvised weapons and without firearms while knowing it will be deadly dangerous fight and they will face potentially firearm-armed enemy. Nobody sneaked in firearm for self-protection in case of grave danger, handfight continued even despite dozens from each side were killed. It is far above handfights between Soviet and Chinese border guards on Amur ice in 1960th, both in terms of scale and intensity. Not sure modern “white men” armies are able to do that.

 

I saw some reports saying 3 bodies of the dead Indian had bullet hits. But it could be incorrect. Basic details about causalities from the Chinese side is coming in more slowly than the India side for whatever reason. Details will naturally be covered with haze with these.

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“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

Albert Einstein

 

Think the Chinese jumped a step or two there....

 

First of all, I wonder why you refer to this case as “Chinese jumped a step” – as it takes two to tango, and the scale of losses from both sides (reported) indicate it was sort of Gangs of New York organized battle, not ambush or surprise attack on small group. Second, imagine degree of discipline and bravery required from soldiers from both sides (nuclear powers) to go into planned hand to hand combat with improvised weapons and without firearms while knowing it will be deadly dangerous fight and they will face potentially firearm-armed enemy. Nobody sneaked in firearm for self-protection in case of grave danger, handfight continued even despite dozens from each side were killed. It is far above handfights between Soviet and Chinese border guards on Amur ice in 1960th, both in terms of scale and intensity. Not sure modern “white men” armies are able to do that.

 

Try saying that in a pub in Taunton. Im sure a half dozen Bootnecks will take great delight in proving you wrong. :D

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There is some honor in fighting in this way, I will admit.

 

The lower casualties will allow both sides to save face, which may have been the intention of the no guns on the border area policy on both sides.

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  • 2 months later...
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A funeral with mass public participation was held in Ladakh for a martyred Tibetan soldier. Company Leader Nyima Tenzin, of the Special Frontier Force, was killed in a landmine explosion during an operation at the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh, on August 29-30. The army truck carrying his mortal remains was adorned with the Indian tricolour and the Tibetan flag. Many people followed the truck on their vehicles, carrying the same flags. Chants of 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Tibet Desh Ki Jai' were heard at the venue of the cremation. The forces bid adieu to the fallen soldier with full military honours, including a gun salute by a ceremonial guard. The solemn ceremony was attended by top politicians like Ram Madhav and Lok Sabha member Jamyang Tsering Namgyal, both from the Bharatiya Janata Party. As per experts, this was the first time that a soldier of the SFF was given a public funeral. It could be seen as a message to China amid the current border standoff. Chinese forces also occupy Tibet, and India has acted as a haven for Tibetans, including their spiritual leader Dalai Lama, fleeing persecution.

 

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Amid the continuing tension between India and China at the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh, the name of a secretive unit of the Indian Army - the Special Frontier Force - has been cropping up, especially with regard to Indian troops' action on the intervening night of August 29 and 30. The SFF played a key role in Indian soldiers gaining control of strategically important heights on the southern bank of the Pangong Tso. This Army unit, also known as Establishment 22, and Vikas Regiment, was set up in the wake of Chinese aggression in 1962. Ever since then, it has seen action on many occasions and combat theatres, but experts believe that this is the first time that the SFF has been deployed directly against the Chinese. What makes this fact special is that the SFF mainly consists of Tibetans, many of whom had to take refuge in India due to Chinese occupation of their land. Thus, their deployment in Ladakh amid the ongoing face-off is also a political message to Beijing from Delhi. Watch the full video for more about the SFF's history and the significance of their deputation to Ladakh during the current standoff. Chinese military images courtesy: eng.chinamil.com.cn

 

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Footage put out a couple of days ago about one of the tussels between India and China, speculated to be before the bigger hand-to-hand fight that resulted in 20 dead Indians in June.

 

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