Canada Looking For A New Frigate

[Chris Werb]

Wouldn't a joint frigate project with the Chinese be on the cards now?

[Colin]

that would be Malaysia, JT is not grovelling enough at the moment, give him time.

[Ivanhoe]

Doing a little Wikisurfing, it seems to me that Canada's naval priority ought to be replacement of the Kingston class boats. Canada has a ridiculous amount of coastline to protect.

 

I'm thinking of something more along the lines of the Cyclone class; faster, lighter, smaller complement, but with deeper keel for seakeeping in northern waters. Maybe inspired by the L'Adroit class; clean lines, built-in RIB handlers, big flat afterdeck for landing helos or lashed containers.

[Halidon]

Doing a little Wikisurfing, it seems to me that Canada's naval priority ought to be replacement of the Kingston class boats. Canada has a ridiculous amount of coastline to protect.

 

I'm thinking of something more along the lines of the Cyclone class; faster, lighter, smaller complement, but with deeper keel for seakeeping in northern waters. Maybe inspired by the L'Adroit class; clean lines, built-in RIB handlers, big flat afterdeck for landing helos or lashed containers.

The Kingston class are light-duty Coastal patrol boats, they never even received the MCM gear they were intended to take on, they are an entirely different conversation from Surface Combatants. For the record, their replacement IS among the RCN recapitalization priorities and the program to replace them is envisioned to get going after the Combatant has settled on a design. They'll probably look for a more proper OPV design, possibly an enlarged version of the Damen Group design their Coast Guard (and others) use or one of Austal's nice hulls. On the outside, maybe a light version of the USCG's OPC or the Holland class.

[Colin]

the Kingston have turned out to the best buy we have done in a long time, they go everywhere and a lot cheaper to run than a DDE. they are being Midlife and will likely be up for replacement when all the other contracts are done. the first AOP and AOR are due next year.

[Phalanx]

Are there any sources/blogs that describe the likely contender designs (or at least base ships prior to Canadianization)?

 

This is the only one I know of, but it's all pure speculation (and was last updated months ago). See part 4.

http://casr.ca/id-canadian-surface-combatant.htm

[DB]

Arise!

Obviously, we know that they are Type 26 hulls.

The latest rumours suggest that the Sea Ceptor fit is confirmed, with 48 missiles. Nothing official that I can find.

[R011]

The RCN has confirmed SeaCeptor will be the close in weapons system.  It will also have 32 Mk 41 VLS with SM-2, ESSM, and Tomahawk.  It will also have Mk54 AS torpedoes in twin tubes, NSM, a 5 inch gun, and two BAE 30 mm guns.

[Adam_S]

Having Sea Ceptor and ESSM seems a bit pointless. Don't they do basically the same thing?

[R011]

No.  ESSM is a medium range system while SeaCeptor is a close in system, the same role as the 20 mm CIWS.  ESSM is three times the weight and twice the range as SeaCeptor.

In Ww2 terms,  SM2 is the heavy AA gun equivalent, ESSM the 40 mm equivalent, and SeaCeptor the 20 mm equivalent.

Edited November 9, 2020 by R011

[Allan W]

I wonder of the 20mm CWIS from the Halifax's will end up on the AOPS ships?

[EchoFiveMike]

SeaCeptor is the more capable replacement for RIM-116 RAM, yes?  S/F....Ken M

[R011]

8 hours ago, Allan Wotherspoon said:

I wonder of the 20mm CWIS from the Halifax's will end up on the AOPS ships?

That would make sense so they'll probably be scrapped instead.

[Yama]

10 hours ago, EchoFiveMike said:

SeaCeptor is the more capable replacement for RIM-116 RAM, yes?  S/F....Ken M

Sea Ceptor sort of occupies the space between RAM and ESSM. Also it's radar guided so not weather sensitive. I think most ships will still have some kind of gun system as last line of defence.

SeaRAM is probably much cheaper, tho.

 

[Josh]

SeaRAM is closer to a CIWS is range, cost, and deck penetration/installation. It also is a stand alone system that doesn't require any fire control from the combat system (I presume that a standard RAM launcher as installed on a CVN for instance does require some input from the combat system). I believe Cea Ceptor and ESSM are fully integrated with the self defense system, although those two differ in weight and range. ESSM kinda confuses things by nominally being a point defense system weapon (based on NATO SS), but one who's range has been pushed out so far it almost seems like an area defense weapon.

[Burncycle360]

My understanding is that Sea Ceptor gives you approximately "horizon reach" (~14-15 nm) with a favorable (approaching) target.  It's a newer system, active radar with datalink so it won't need an illuminator like the older versions of ESSM, and benefits from a lighter VLS since they aren't using hot launch,  simplifying integration in smaller, cheaper ships.  It's faster and longer ranged than RAM, without the field of fire limitations, but presumably RAM, being a trainable launcher, would have a shorter minimum range and of course bolt-on integration with SeaRAM

The latest versions of ESSM have turned into a true medium ranged missile IMO, heavier with a much larger warhead, faster, and about double the max range, so it gives you more like a horizon reach no escape zone rather than a horizon reach max range -- you'll have a better chance of nailing a crossing or retreating target, which may be more useful if you're escorting other ships.

CAMM-ER is supposed to give you ESSM like range but I think it needs a deeper VLS than the normal Sea Ceptor.

I'd probably throw CAMM into a corvette, and ESSM + RAM into a frigate or larger, with SM6 ERAM as the tool of choice for long range work

Edited November 11, 2020 by Burncycle360

[Colin]

Tonnage is estimated at 7,800 DWT, about the size of a Leander Class Cruiser from WWII. The armament and outfitting is impressive. Some concerning that the bunking and messing for 204 is to small. Also a concern that there is not enough money for 15 and likely 9 will be built. Some pushing to have them as the new "Tribal Class"

[Allan W]

1 hour ago, Colin said:

Tonnage is estimated at 7,800 DWT, about the size of a Leander Class Cruiser from WWII. The armament and outfitting is impressive. Some concerning that the bunking and messing for 204 is to small. Also a concern that there is not enough money for 15 and likely 9 will be built. Some pushing to have them as the new "Tribal Class"

I think that Tribal names would be a bit politically fraught.  I think that reusing names from the River class would be a better option.

[Rick]

Asking because I truly do not know, but what threat does Canada see?

[shep854]

How about a few slightly used 'Coastal Combat Ships'?  There are options...

[R011]

2 hours ago, shep854 said:

How about a few slightly used 'Coastal Combat Ships'?  There are options...

No Canadian shipbuilding jobs in buying used foreign ships.  Shipbuilding jobs are the primary reason why we have a navy.

[R011]

14 hours ago, Rick said:

Asking because I truly do not know, but what threat does Canada see?

Trade protection as part of an Allied force - essentially helping to keep the North Atlantic open for NATO .  Participation in international interventions.  Police Canadian waters, including surveillance and prosecution of unauthorized [i.e. Russian and Chinese] submarine activities.

[sunday]

31 minutes ago, R011 said:

Trade protection as part of an Allied force - essentially helping to keep the North Atlantic open for NATO .  Participation in international interventions.  Police Canadian waters, including surveillance and prosecution of unauthorized [i.e. Russian and Chinese] submarine activities.

Do not forget fisheries protection, there were some slight unpleasantries in the 1980s with European fishers.

[R011]

7 minutes ago, sunday said:

Do not forget fisheries protection, there were some slight unpleasantries in the 1980s with European fishers.

That's mainly a Coast Guard responsibility, but the RCN can and has backed them up as needed. "Police Canadian waters" incudes that as well as drug interdiction, SAR, and whatever else needs doing that they can do.

[DB]

CAMM-ER is longer than CAMM it also has long chord wings like ESSM and MICA. Its canister is the same width as CAMM's, although the rocket motor section has larger diameter, so it's not simply a lengthened  propulsion section. Both are soft launch, which does make silos a lot simpler. Like ESSM there is an option to quad-pack in mk41 VLS and Sea Ceptor is indeed integrated into the ship's combat system.

Although VL, CAMM's tip over system is effective enough for initial pointing and it really does have a low visual signature.