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Don't Go Being Politically Insane You Climate Change Skeptics


Mr King

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22 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Local conditions will vary, but a general rejection of heat pumps because they're not always the perfect solution is irrational. As with every technical solution, it's more useful to discuss trade-offs rather than absolutes.

Problem is the absolute rejection of the use of gas for heating.

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21 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The truth is, if Climate change is stopped, the usual lobbyists and politicians (and tanknet posters presumably) will pipe up it was a swindle and demand to used unrestricted emissions again. And if it isnt stopped, then nobody will be around to say 'I told you so'.

In the end, I dont think it remotely matters if it is a falseshood, I dont believe it is but it doesnt matter . Moving to more efficient forms of technology is good for mankind economically, even if you dont believe in climate change. So I really dont get the hysteria about protecting coal mines in the Apalacians as being important, particularly as its entirely evident nobody in America gave a toss about little America before.

Do you guys really think there arent lots of jobs created by building nuclear power stations?

 

  Yes. Inefficiency and waste in an economy lowers living standards and overall employment.

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21 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The truth is, if Climate change is stopped, the usual lobbyists and politicians (and tanknet posters presumably) will pipe up it was a swindle and demand to used unrestricted emissions again. And if it isnt stopped, then nobody will be around to say 'I told you so'.

The truth is the climate has always changed.  And it probably continue changing until the sun goes nova.  There is NOTHING we can do to stop it.

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4 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Local conditions will vary, but a general rejection of heat pumps because they're not always the perfect solution is irrational. As with every technical solution, it's more useful to discuss trade-offs rather than absolutes.

 I have both a heat pump and gas heat in my house. On cold days, the heat pump is miserable. The compressor, along with every other house in the neighborhood that has a heat pump, whirrs loudly and frequently. The air out of the vents starts out cool and only improves to moderately warm. In the section of the house with the furnace, nice warm air briefly blows out of the vents occasionally.

  Heat pumps don't make sense in cold areas, because your house is being heated by the outside air. They're probably pretty good in places like Hawaii, where it's never really cold. Compressors use a large amount of energy, so I don't understand how it's physically possible for a heat pump to efficiently heat a house in really cold weather. Since the temperature difference between the expanded refrigerant and the outside air isn't very large, and the house is transferring considerable amounts of heat to the cold environment, the heat pump would have to run continuously while creating very little heat.

  I think some heat pumps have hot electrical wires to provide heat when it's very cold. I don't think this is very efficient overall because the power plant supplying the electricity only delivers about 65% of the energy created by burning the fuel. I think a gas furnace delivers a higher percentage of the energy created during combustion.

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23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The truth is, if Climate change is stopped,

How do you stop something that's always changing? 
 

23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

the usual lobbyists and politicians (and tanknet posters presumably) will pipe up it was a swindle and demand to used unrestricted emissions again. And if it isnt stopped, then nobody will be around to say 'I told you so'.

Are you volunteering to live in a stone hut with no heat? How would you know that the climate has stopped? 

23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

In the end, I dont think it remotely matters if it is a falseshood, I dont believe it is but it doesnt matter .

Here. Send me £5.000. I will give you the same guarantees. 

23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Moving to more efficient forms of technology is good for mankind economically, even if you dont believe in climate change.

Yes. But Solar is not more efficient. Neither is wind. Nuclear is. How many nuke plants has the UK turned up in the past 5 years? Here in my state we just turned on reactor 3. Reactor 4 is going on line real soon now (tm). 
 

23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

So I really dont get the hysteria about protecting coal mines in the Apalacians as being important, particularly as its entirely evident nobody in America gave a toss about little America before.

Strangely, we're still mining it. It's being shipped to China. Though we're cutting down trees in South/Central Georgia, turning it into wood pellets and shipping that to Germany too. 
 

23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Do you guys really think there arent lots of jobs created by building nuclear power stations?

It helps if you create new plants. If you spend 20 years arguing about it in courts, it creates jobs for lawyers. Were the LNER and Great Northern moved forwards by spending 20 years arguing about where the tracks go? 

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1 hour ago, Detonable said:

 I have both a heat pump and gas heat in my house. On cold days, the heat pump is miserable. The compressor, along with every other house in the neighborhood that has a heat pump, whirrs loudly and frequently. The air out of the vents starts out cool and only improves to moderately warm. In the section of the house with the furnace, nice warm air briefly blows out of the vents occasionally.

 

Heat pumps are marginally useless after a certain point. 

1 hour ago, Detonable said:


 

  Heat pumps don't make sense in cold areas, because your house is being heated by the outside air. They're probably pretty good in places like Hawaii, where it's never really cold. Compressors use a large amount of energy, so I don't understand how it's physically possible for a heat pump to efficiently heat a house in really cold weather. Since the temperature difference between the expanded refrigerant and the outside air isn't very large, and the house is transferring considerable amounts of heat to the cold environment, the heat pump would have to run continuously while creating very little heat.

Heat pumps work great if the cold side is where it's warm and the warm side is where it's cold. They work less well when the cold side is cold already and the warm side is where it's already hot. 

1 hour ago, Detonable said:

  I think some heat pumps have hot electrical wires to provide heat when it's very cold. I don't think this is very efficient overall because the power plant supplying the electricity only delivers about 65% of the energy created by burning the fuel. I think a gas furnace delivers a higher percentage of the energy created during combustion.

Emergency heat is the mode I think. Straight resistive is very inefficient. 

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/17/plants-absorb-carbon-dioxide-photosynthesis-trinity-college/

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Global warming might not happen quite as fast as we thought – here’s why
Plants will absorb more carbon dioxide than predicted, meaning models could be overestimating the speed which the planet will heat up

Paywalled, unfortunately.

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6 hours ago, rmgill said:

Heat pumps are marginally useless after a certain point. 

Heat pumps work great if the cold side is where it's warm and the warm side is where it's cold. They work less well when the cold side is cold already and the warm side is where it's already hot. 

Emergency heat is the mode I think. Straight resistive is very inefficient. 

In Virginia, I had an apartment with a heat pump. Worked OK, until one winter when daytime highs were down around 15F for about a week. There was an emergency resistance heating element in the inside air handler, but the problem was that it was badly undersized. At full throttle it could only get my 2BR/2BA apartment up to about 50F. 

I "solved" the problem by buying two big electric room heaters that got the living room/kitchen area up to about 65F, and a little tabletop electric heater in my bedroom. 

Ironically, that apt had a fireplace, but firewood was sold out everywhere in the region. 

 

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20 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Not sure what "Malthusian Purpose" is supposed to mean, freezing people to death so they don't have to starve?

I think that's a needlessly demonic view of the Environmentalists. They may be driven by certain Malthusian fears, all right, and also they are incompetent in many areas. But that doesn't mean that heat pumps are unsuitable for the majority of American households.

Non sequitur. 

Nothing wrong with heat pumps, at geographical locations where they are a good fit. The problem is the watermelon crowd keeps preaching all-or-nothing treatments without consideration of environment or economics. 

The sum of the federal regulatory industry is to worsen the quality of life for working class and lower middle class Americans (and to be legally precise, alien residents). There is no question that the laptop class running DC is using regulations to deny modern conveniences to the unwashed masses. 

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They did a pretty good job destroying the incandescent bulb.  whatever loopholes might exist have been obviated by the economics of production.  sure some classes remain available--no one has come up with a LED that will survive in the oven yet, for example.  Still, I can;t get a normal 100w bulb to heat my dog's house, anymore, except on the side markets like eBay.  Incandescents have other uses, too, but the People Who Know Better have declared them evil.

I, for one, am not as complacent about regulatory ineffectiveness, Ssnake.

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I'm not saying that politicians have no destructive power over the economy, they certainly do. And most of them don't even seem to understand that the power they have is heavily shifted towards the destructive end of the economy rather than being able to render constructive contributions with regulation.

But I suppose there are other ways to heat a dog shelter than just 100W incandescent light bulbs. Yes, the workaround may be more cumbersome, but it's not like all dogs must freeze to death now.

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Quick, take everything you do, change it and make it 10 times more expensive. 

Do you feel better about yourself yet? 

That's exactly what forcing a shift away from incandescent bulbs has been about. 

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On 11/20/2023 at 10:56 AM, Ssnake said:

I remain confident that the DC machine is not nearly competent enough to decide on regulation without loopholes.

  On the other hand, I remain confident that the DC machine is competent enough to produce loopholes for their chosen beneficiaries.

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9 hours ago, rmgill said:

Quick, take everything you do, change it and make it 10 times more expensive. 

Do you feel better about yourself yet? 

That's exactly what forcing a shift away from incandescent bulbs has been about. 

  Some energy efficient bulbs can now produce pleasant looking light. 

  I bought a high efficiency bulb many years ago before they were improved. The light was hideous. I knew I didn't want it anywhere in the living areas so I stuck it in the utility room and then sold the house. If you have a long lasting bulb it might outlast you so your stuck with it forever.

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1 hour ago, Detonable said:

  Some energy efficient bulbs can now produce pleasant looking light. 

  I bought a high efficiency bulb many years ago before they were improved. The light was hideous. I knew I didn't want it anywhere in the living areas so I stuck it in the utility room and then sold the house. If you have a long lasting bulb it might outlast you so your stuck with it forever.

CRI (Color Rendering Index) is the metric for that.

Page of a specialized manufacturer:

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item66.jpg

 

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9 hours ago, Detonable said:

  Some energy efficient bulbs can now produce pleasant looking light. 

Yes. and many things that cost 10 times the price are better looking. But not always. 

IT's the fact that it's a mandatory 10 times the price jump. 

Now, as I said, take EVERYTHING you do and make it cost 10 times more. Do you not feel like your life is improved? 

9 hours ago, Detonable said:

  I bought a high efficiency bulb many years ago before they were improved. The light was hideous. I knew I didn't want it anywhere in the living areas so I stuck it in the utility room and then sold the house. If you have a long lasting bulb it might outlast you so your stuck with it forever.

The bulbs are more complex. They have multiple electronic components inside for the voltage regulator, the rectifier circuit, and the switching necessary to do all this. They're 10 times the price too. They're not that much more reliable in many cases and the cheaper ones fail after a period of time. LED's also fail over time as well. Getting 3 years out of a dimmer capable LED is a crap shoot.  

In some cases it would make perfect sense for a $10 bulb. In other cases, it does not. 

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https://archive.is/q82v4#selection-4261.0-4261.68
 

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King hacked her machine with a water pitcher—she now adds seven or more pitchers filled with water to the machine, both at the start and midway through the cycle. That extra water tricks the machine into thinking there is a bigger load, so the washer adds even more water. 

King says her clothes now come out cleaner. “There is nothing convenient about any of it,” she said. 

 

The above concerns a clothes washer, a top-loader. 

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The Biden administration has proposed tightening federal water and energy use standards further for numerous home appliances, including refrigerators and ovens, in an effort to combat climate change and save consumers money. Under a proposed rule, dishwashers would be allowed to use around 3.2 gallons of water a cycle, down from 5 gallons currently. Appliance makers and environmental groups have put forward a joint proposal for less stringent efficiency increases.

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The average standard cycle time for a dishwasher has increased from around 70 minutes in 1983 to 160 minutes this year, according to research by the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian think tank that opposes the efficiency rules. 

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He eventually made a key discovery: The amount of water his machine used could be adjusted through a hidden switch inside the machine. He waited for its warranty to expire and then went in with a screwdriver. About an hour later, his machine was back together and the water level was much higher as he ran a load.

He warned you need a soft touch, though. “They make this little screw out of a soft plastic,” he said. “If you are not careful you could mess up that little screwhead.”  

 

 

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