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New Taiwan Sub Program, Design Phase Already Started


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They've built a fighter jet, so they should be able to gather enough tech to build a sub... eventually?

Yeah, just like with the fighter, I think they'll be able to make the sub in a similar way, by the mid 2020s I would guess.

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  • 4 months later...

Japanese retired sub experts to visit.

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) - Retired experts from Japan’s Mitsubishi and Kawasaki Heavy Industries will visit Taiwan next month to present a report on Taiwan’s domestic submarine program, reports said Tuesday.

 

Given that other countries are no longer prepared to supply the island nation with submarines due to pressure from China, the government of President Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) has been pursuing the local manufacturing of submarines, with 2024 as the date for the first inauguration.

 

However, Taiwan could still cooperate with foreign suppliers for key elements of the project, such as engine technology, the Liberty Times reported.

 

Retired specialists from the two Japanese companies had been invited by CSBC Corporation, Taiwan (台船) to come over to the island in September, train the necessary personnel and present a study report in October, Upmedia reported.

 

The shipbuilding company was hoping to sign the contract for the submarines next year, with NT$50 billion (US$1.6 billion) to NT$60 billion mentioned as its total value, the Liberty Times reported.

 

In addition, the shipyard had also agreed to build more than a dozen ships for Taiwan’s Coast Guard.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3511598
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They've built a fighter jet, so they should be able to gather enough tech to build a sub... eventually?

 

For Mainland China, sure.

 

ETA: No one is going to trust any significant sub tech to Taiwan. They are just a Chinese provence waiting to happen, even assuming some random officer doesn't go rouge and give up the goat before that happens.

Edited by Josh
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They've built a fighter jet, so they should be able to gather enough tech to build a sub... eventually?

For Mainland China, sure.

 

ETA: No one is going to trust any significant sub tech to Taiwan. They are just a Chinese provence waiting to happen, even assuming some random officer doesn't go rouge and give up the goat before that happens.

Go rouge - as in become communist? Or go rogue and steal the tech? Either are bad, I guess.

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If they do it out of ethnic nationalism, I guess that's different than doing it for economic gain. But either way, the probability is high. Taiwan basically exists so long as the US states that it exists. It's ability to defend itself at this point is negligible and pointless. Either the USN comes to the party or it doesn't; that's what determines whether Taiwan gets invaded/blockaded. If the US backs out; it is far more likely Taiwan cuts a deal...and no one wants to give them any tech. This situation is drastically exacerbated by my current president.

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If they do it out of ethnic nationalism, I guess that's different than doing it for economic gain. But either way, the probability is high. Taiwan basically exists so long as the US states that it exists. It's ability to defend itself at this point is negligible and pointless. Either the USN comes to the party or it doesn't; that's what determines whether Taiwan gets invaded/blockaded. If the US backs out; it is far more likely Taiwan cuts a deal...and no one wants to give them any tech. This situation is drastically exacerbated by my current president.

IF the PRC invades Taiwan, it will want to do it quickly and cleanly. A big show of force, then a capitulation by the government, then a (from then on) peaceful reunification.

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Current Japanese political aims WRT the Taiwanese/Nationalist Chinese are probably less about becoming potentially entangled in a Third Sino-Japanese War, and more along the lines of Japan's historical success in manipulating different Chinese factions against each other in various ways.

 

Encouraging Chinese to bear arms against other Chinese in a manner beneficial to Japanese interests and destabilizing to Chinese interests is one thing. Whether the Taiwanese/Nationalist Chinese currently have anything to offer Japan and Japanese that may be worth the bones of a single Japanese grenadier is another, however.

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I always thought it was interesting that the de jure mainland government (in exile), who actually helped found the UN....

 

Gets kicked out of the UN and declared "not a county anymore" by the political and economic leverage of those who de facto controlled the mainland.

 

While China doesnt have the force projection capabilities to invade Taiwan and doesn't have the desire to plaster it, I do wonder just how far the US would go if it meant war with a major economic partner. As long as they don't go too overt they could probably go a long way without repercussion of force with sanctions and an economic blockade

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It seems likely that would provoke a similar response from the US to Chinese trade. I'm assuming by 'economic blockade' you mean a purely diplomatic one; a military blockade is an act of war and given the USN CONOPS that already occur it is likely to be challenged in short order. It would be a contest of wills at that point, but I could see it hardening Taiwanese resolve and drastically eroding any support for reunification for a generation, so it would be a big gamble. This also doesn't seem like an ideal time to throw a wrench into China's economy either.

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  • 4 months later...

Taiwanese Liberty Times article about a retired Taiwanese submarine officer describing the next submarine to be something like a small version of the Japanese soryu-class diesel electric submarine.

 

 

〔即時新聞/綜合報導〕潛艦國造(IDS)完成首艘柴電潛艦設計圖,而海軍造船發展中心在IDS設計告一段落後,為參與官兵製作「鑰匙圈和領帶夾」,記念品圖騰標示著未來我國國造潛艦造型,退役潛艦軍官王志鵬取得後將圖片貼在網路上引起討論,外界推測,IDS造型可能就像縮小版的日本蒼龍柴電潛艦

根據《聯合報》報導,王志鵬分析,IDS艦艏外型為上橢圓下鈍的「雪茄型」,目前具有這種艦艏外型的柴電潛艦只有日本的蒼龍級,而蒼龍級之所以採用這樣的結構,除了降低潛艦體噪音之外,主要就是為了騰出空間容納球形的被動聲納,魚雷艙為了配合聲納空間,也要做出結構修改,魚雷管的位置和角度將會做出改變,魚雷艙內部裝填與儲存的方式都和先前的劍龍級潛艦不同,因此人員也需要重新訓練。

王志鵬指出,IDS艦體上方的「帆罩」前緣,呈現梯形、滑順線條,這也和蒼龍級和德國海軍所使用的「212」類似,這項改變代表「增強流體力學,以降低噪音」,同時帆罩內部的各桅管和裝備也必須重新設計。王志鵬認為,從外形結構來看,IDS存在著「日本」與「德國」的技術因子;但由外型觀察,看不出是否有採用日本蒼龍級配備的的「舷側被動測距陣列聲納」和艦艉的「被動式拖曳聲納」。

http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/politics/breakingnews/2684384

 

The same officer uploaded pictures of souvenirs to his Facebook account which apparently are these.

taiwansub1.jpg

 

taiwansub2.jpg

 

taiwansub3.jpg

 

taiwansub4.jpg

 

 

 

海軍司令部27日表示,潛艦國造案目前依計畫執行,海軍秉持審慎嚴謹的態度管控,以利全案執行順遂,請媒體勿妄加臆測。

潛艦國造案第一階段計畫已完成首艘柴電潛艦設計圖,海軍預計在3月10日向立法院進行秘密簡報。有媒體報導指稱一名海軍退役軍官王志鵬取得一套並未公開流通的紀念品,一個鑰匙圈跟領帶夾,其特徵受到外界注意;對此,甚至被外界猜測,是未來設計的潛艦,這也有如縮小版的日本蒼龍級潛艦。

而王志鵬也在臉書上指出,僅管只是紀念品的圖示,但艦艏、艦艉與帆罩特徵,還是引起頗多注意;艦艏外型並非劍龍級的淚滴型,而是有點上橢圓下鈍的雪茄型,這種柴電潛艦目前只有日本蒼龍級採用。

對此,海軍司令部27日表示,潛艦國造案目前依計畫執行,海軍秉持審慎嚴謹的態度管控,以利全案執行順遂,請媒體勿妄加臆測。海軍司令部強調,潛艦是國家安全重要的關鍵戰力,更是國防建設重要指標,請媒體與民眾支持。

https://www.ettoday.net/news/20190127/1367024.htm

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  • 2 weeks later...

He could have uploaded action figures from SeaQuest DSV for all the good it would have done, as their current improved Gato class and ancient U.S. Navy Mk. IV Torpedo Data Computer technology appear perfectly sufficient for the limited set of tasks and responsibilities entrusted to them.

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  • 3 months later...

Model of prototype submarine at a ceremony where the sub is to be built. Is to be "viable" in 5 years with first production sub a year and a half after that.

protosub.jpg

 

 

 

Taipei, May 9 (CNA) A miniature model of Taiwan's prototype indigenous submarine was unveiled Thursday in Kaohsiung during a groundbreaking ceremony presided over by President Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) for the factory that will build the nation's first indigenous submarine.

The model features an X-form rudder system instead of the traditional cross-shaped rudder.

The use of X-form rudders aims to improve underwater maneuverability, reduce collision risk when docking and lower noise from propeller flow interactions, according to F. S. Mei (梅復興), director of the U.S.-based Taiwan Security Analysis Center.

Speaking during the groundbreaking ceremony, Tsai said her administration is determined to develop indigenous defense systems and building an indigenous submarine will greatly boost the Navy's combat capabilities in asymmetrical warfare.

The military currently has four submarines in its fleet, two of which were purchased from the United States in the 1970s, while the other two were bought from the Netherlands in the 1980s. Due to pressure from Beijing, the Netherlands has not sold Taiwan any more since then, she noted.

"Therefore we have no other choice but to build our own indigenous submarines," Tsai said.

After overcoming challenges over the past years, Taiwan has finally obtained export permits for the key technologies needed to design its own submarines, she said, expressing hope that this first step will be a success for the project.

In his address, Cheng Wen-lon (鄭文隆), chairman of CSBC Corp. Taiwan, the country's largest shipbuilder, and builder of the submarine, said the company has assigned 116 staff to work with the Navy on the project.

The submarine factory's construction will begin later this afternoon and is scheduled to be completed next year, he noted.

The prototype submarine will be viable in five years before the first submarine is delivered a year and a half later, he said.

Taiwan's defense ministry announced in March that the contract design phase of Taiwan's first indigenous submarine project has been completed and a prototype will be ready by 2024.

The completion of the contract design was the first phase of the project, which will now move on to blueprint design, followed by construction of a prototype and mass production, according to Defense Minister Yen De-fa (嚴德發).

The government has allocated NT$49 billion over seven years to build an indigenous submarine, with the goal of boosting Taiwan's defense capabilities in the face of China's growing military strength.

http://focustaiwan.tw/news/afav/201905090009.aspx#.XNYQzBYiuKw.twitter

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Interesting! Nice to see a first look.

 

At first I thought its proportions seemed odd, but comparing it to other attack submarines, it's not that different. I think the thickness of the aft section and sudden taper to stern was throwing me off.

 

Here's a close-up of that model vs Russian Akula. Significant differences, but also significant similarities of proportion:

 

Edited by TTK Ciar
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The Yasen also has a "thick" aft section with sudden taper. Maybe that's just what subs look like now, and I'm too accustomed to cold war designs.

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To be fair, everything that matters in a sub nowadays is below the skin so even with a slick appearance it could be a clunk because the engines are poorly insulated and noise radiates.

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Nationalist China and Chinese generals can barely be trusted to not leak security dialogue content to Beijing according to the Nationalist Chinese envoy to Japan last week, never mind modern diesel attack submarine technology from the U.S. and Germany.

 

The improved Gato class, and the level of technology security trust its continuing service represents, remains perfectly adequate for the ROCN's needs.

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