New Taiwan Sub Program, Design Phase Already Started

[JasonJ]

Taiwan’s military said on Thursday it has already begun the process of designing a long-sought-after domestic attack submarine, hoping to complete it in 2024.

Navy Command Headquarters Chief of Staff Vice Admiral Mei Chia-shu told a legislative committee session: “We plan to complete the design by 2019 and complete the construction by 2024.”

 

Defence Minister Feng Shih-kuan said “outside pressure” was the biggest factor and challenge for the project, referring to mainland China. The mainland considers Taiwan a breakaway Chinese province that should be reunited with the rest of the country.

 

The submarine is part of the navy’s 15-year plans to rebuild its military might and strengthen the island’s defence industry. The plan was first announced in 2014 and the ministry established a task force last month to help push the project forward.

 

No countries have been willing to provide Taiwan with a design blueprint, mainly due to fears of political consequences from mainland China. Mei said the navy was planning to obtain the design blueprint from the Netherlands, the country that designed and built two of the island’s diesel-powered submarines.

 

Mei said the navy signed a contract with a Dutch company earlier this year to extend the lifespan of the two subs so Taiwan could use the design blueprint as the basis for the construction of the first home-built submarine.

 

The navy is planning to commission the Ship and Ocean Industries R&D Centre to be mainly responsible for the design and the National Chung-Shan Institute of Science & Technology for the integration of the combat system.

 

Mei did not reveal who the builder would be, but a report obtained by Kyodo News showed the navy was planning to award the contract to CSBC Corp Taiwan.

 

The report also indicated that Taiwan was capable of building 70 per cent of the turbine system of the submarine, 50 per cent of the outer hull, 30 per cent of the motor system and 30 per cent of the combat system.

 

Besides obtaining the design blueprint from the Netherlands, the navy also needs the support of other countries capable of building submarines, according to Deputy Chief of the General Staff Admiral Pu Tze-chun.

 

Pu declined to specify which countries have been contacted.

 

Other countries that have the capability of building submarines include France, Germany, Sweden, India, Japan and the United States.

 

The United States, which agreed in 2001 to sell Taiwan eight non-nuclear submarines, has promised to help Taiwan build attack submarines.

However, since then the deal has failed to move forward due to technical and political constraints.

 

Citing Australia’s recent agreement to engage a French defence firm to construct submarines for its navy, Democratic Progressive Party Legislator Lo Chih-cheng warned Taiwan’s navy not to repeat the same “failure”.

Lo said Australia spent a significant amount of money on the contract after wasting time and money trying to build domestic vessels.

 

 

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1986666/taiwan-starts-designing-home-built-attack-submarine

 

 

 

[Josh]

Seems like a tall order to get into the modern submarine business without any external help.

[Panzermann]

Seems like a tall order to get into the modern submarine business without any external help.

This:

 

Pu declined to specify which countries have been contacted.

reads like they are looking to hire foreign help.

 

The usual suspects are going to send their salesmen I bet. USA, Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, France.

[Colin]

You would think these 2 would work together http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/kss-ii-south-korea-orders-6-more-u-214-aip-submarines-05242/

[Nobu]

A powerful Japanese Navy will be more than able to take care of any Nationalist Chinese blue-water security concerns in the future.

 

The most recent deployment of the ROCN navy was just 6 weeks ago, and aimed against Japan. The previous deployment of ROCN naval power was aimed against the Philippines.

 

Meanwhile, Quemoy and Matsu remain wide open for Chinese tourism and influence.

 

The Gato class is more than adequate for Taipei's coastal defense needs, and about all Taipei should be trusted with.

[Corinthian]

The Gato class WW2 era subs are still alive?!?

 

Wow.

[Panzermann]

You would think these 2 would work together http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/kss-ii-south-korea-orders-6-more-u-214-aip-submarines-05242/

On the other hand, Korean newspapers have been

reporting high noise levels in previous ships of class ,

due to propeller shaft problems. Time will tell if Batch 2

submarines manage to fix that issue.

At first the class 212A boats had drive shafts made in Korea via subcontracting. Those have been too loud as well, because they were not straight enough. The Bundeswehr had to replace the shafts with shafts made in Germany that had originally been rejected as too expensive. (buy cheap buy twice) The firm hired produces drilling equipment for oil and gas normally. Looks like the Koreans still cannot straighten their shafts.

[Panzermann]

The Gato class WW2 era subs are still alive?!?

 

Wow.

In a museum submarine squadron maybe.

 

Taiwan owns four dutch built swordfish class of which two are active. iirc

 

Two boats is not much for an island nation I think.

[swerve]

Two modified Zwaardvis (built new for Taiwan) AFAIK, plus two old US subs which are probably only fit for training. The two ex-Dutch Zwaardvis were last heard of laid up (since the 1990s) & awaiting scrapping, attempts to sell them having failed.

Edited July 12, 2016 by swerve

[JasonJ]

 

 

The Submarine Development Center was inaugurated Aug. 1 in the southern Taiwan port city of Kaohsiung by CSBC Corporation, Taiwan, underscoring the commitment of the firm to building the country’s first domestically made submarine.

“The government wants to build Taiwan’s first submarine and more vessels for use by the navy and various government agencies,” CSBC Chairman Cheng Wen-long said during the ceremony. “We are ready to offer our full support to the government and will seek technical assistance from abroad.”

Supporting the national defense industry is one of CSBC’s corporate missions, Cheng said, adding that the Kaohsiung-headquartered firm produced 116 vessels for the Republic of China (Taiwan) navy between 1975 and 2015. These include frigates, missile and patrol boats, as well as transports.

Through utilizing related sectors spanning naval engineering and certification, construction materials and production equipment, the center will boost the competitiveness of the local shipbuilding industry and create jobs, he added.

In addition to expanding collaboration with academic and R&D institutions at home and abroad, Cheng said CSBC will continue fostering local talents so as to enhance the country’s naval engineering proficiency.

One of the policy priorities of the President Tsai Ing-wen administration is strengthening the national defense industry. In line with this commitment, the Ministry of National Defense announced June 20 that the navy will spend NT$470 billion (US$14.84 billion) between 2018 and 2040 on 12 shipbuilding projects.

Indigenous submarine production is a key plank in this policy. During a news conference in the run-up to this year’s ROC presidential election, Tsai said she anticipated the first vessel would be launched by 2026.

During Tsai’s Miami transit stop in June en route to visiting ROC diplomatic allies Panama and Paraguay, she met with U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio and said Taiwan will need technical support and assistance from the U.S. to achieve its goal of indigenous submarine production.

The ROC navy currently operates four diesel-electric submarines. The Haihu and Hailung were purchased from the Netherlands and commissioned in the late 1980s, while the Haipao and Haishih are former U.S. Navy boats acquired in the early 1970s.

 

http://www.taiwantoday.tw/ct.asp?xItem=246708&ctNode=2194&mp=9

[JasonJ]

Taiwan saying US will sell it mk48 torpedoes.

 

TAIPEI, Taiwan — The United States is set to approve the sale of Mk-48 heavyweight torpedoes for Taiwan after many years of delay, said a Taiwan Ministry of National Defense (MND) official.

 

The Advanced Capability torpedo will be outfitted on Taiwan’s two remaining combat attack submarines after they undergo a life extension program upgrade.

 

Taiwan procured two Dutch-built Sea Dragon-class (Zwaardvis Mk 2) submarines in the late 1980s. The recent $200 million procurement of 32 UGM-84L Sub-launched Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles will also give the Dutch-built submarines a bigger punch.

 

Taiwan is also moving forward with the Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS) program to build eight attack submarines. With a total of ten attack submarines armed with Mk-48 torpedoes and additional UGM-84L Harpoons, China will hesitate to invade Taiwan, according to the MND source.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/us-taiwan-move-forward-on-new-torpedoes

[lastdingo]

From the original quote; "turbine system"? Was something lost in translation? Was "propulsion" meant?

 

The only designs of a non-nuclear submarine with a turbine system that I know about are a pre-WWI design with power storage with caustic soda solution and of course the Walther turbine boat designs of WW2.

Other than that, I only know of turbochargers for diesels, but why would one mention them specifically?

[JasonJ]

From the original quote; "turbine system"? Was something lost in translation? Was "propulsion" meant?

 

The only designs of a non-nuclear submarine with a turbine system that I know about are a pre-WWI design with power storage with caustic soda solution and of course the Walther turbine boat designs of WW2.

Other than that, I only know of turbochargers for diesels, but why would one mention them specifically?

 

Perhaps either lost in translation or the article writer/reporters used wrong terminology.

[JasonJ]

Maritime and defense expo in Taiwan had a model of the sub.

 

 

 

http://www.nownews.com/n/2016/09/13/2238079

 

 

 

Footage of the expo starts at 0:25

[Josh]

From the original quote; "turbine system"? Was something lost in translation? Was "propulsion" meant?

 

The only designs of a non-nuclear submarine with a turbine system that I know about are a pre-WWI design with power storage with caustic soda solution and of course the Walther turbine boat designs of WW2.

Other than that, I only know of turbochargers for diesels, but why would one mention them specifically?

Well nuke boats are turbine operated, but that clearly isn't what they meant either.

[Panzermann]

maybe "turbine" and "propeller" are the same word in chinese?

 

Or as is often the case the translator is a non technical person and thus had no clue.

[JasonJ]

maybe "turbine" and "propeller" are the same word in chinese?

 

Or as is often the case the translator is a non technical person and thus had no clue.

 

As far as I can tell, no, they are different words. Granted I'm a beginner reader of Chinese, but dictionaries and google search of images will show the difference.

 

Here are propeller and turbine at font size 24 in traditional Chinese characters which is used by Taiwanese (both Mandarin Taiwanese and the native Hokkien Taiwanese).

 

螺旋槳 = propeller

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E8%9E%BA%E6%97%8B%E6%A7%B3&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=734&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVxOnOn5nPAhVM8GMKHWZyD-cQ_AUICCgB

 

渦輪 = turbine

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E6%B6%A1%E8%BD%AE&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=734&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH2fiSn5nPAhVP62MKHbnRAwEQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=%E6%B8%A6%E8%BC%AA

Edited September 18, 2016 by JasonJ

[JasonJ]

US gives manufacturers the OK to sell sub parts to Taiwan for sub program.

 

 

The US Department of State has approved a marketing license needed for US manufacturers to sell technology to Taiwan that would enable the nation to build domestic submarines, the Ministry of National Defense said yesterday.

Ministry spokesman Major General Chen Chung-chi (陳中吉) said in an interview that the ministry has received reports that the state department has agreed to grant the marketing license required for the sale of technology that Taiwan needs to develop indigenous submarines.

Presidential Office spokesman Sidney Lin (林鶴明) confirmed the report, saying that the State Department notified Taiwan’s representative office in the US that it would provide the license.

This decision would not only help upgrade Taiwan’s self-defense capabilities, but would also benefit regional safety and security, Lin said.

The Presidential Office and the ministry thanked the US for its commitment to the Taiwan Relations Act and the “six assurances.”

“As a result, Taiwan will become more militarily self-sufficient,” the ministry said.

Democratic Progressive Party Legislator Wang Ding-yu (王定宇), who sits on the legislature’s Foreign Affairs and National Defense Committee, also thanked the State Department for “making a righteous decision” and supporting Taiwan, “a nation with democratic values the same as those of the US.”

Wang said he hopes that remaining talks go smoothly, adding that he is very optimistic about the nation’s indigenous submarine-building program following a visit to a shipyard last week.

“The nation’s defense program most needs to improve its underwater combat capabilities, which it should have done 10 years ago,” he said. “The nation’s development of submarines is already 20 years behind schedule, but better late than never.”

“The announcement from the US is the first step. Whether we are talking about components, systems or other technology, US manufacturers would still need to obtain export permits,” Wang said. “Nevertheless, this act from the US Department of State is a great start.”

The friendliness shown toward Taiwan by both the US Senate and House of Representatives is historically the best it has ever been, he said.

The US is taking care of the combat systems the nation’s submarines would use, and if export permission for those systems is granted, the nation’s submarine program would be ready for action, he said.

Once basic blueprints for the submarines are complete, schematics can be worked out, Wang said, adding that export permission for the components would take about one year to acquire.

After components are received, production and assembly can begin, he said, adding that work should be completed according to schedule and the quality and combat-effectiveness of the finished submarines is expected to be excellent.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2018/04/08/2003690901

[RETAC21]

Maritime and defense expo in Taiwan had a model of the sub.

 

 

 

http://www.nownews.com/n/2016/09/13/2238079

 

 

 

Footage of the expo starts at 0:25

 

That's a Zwardviis clone:

 

 

From the original quote; "turbine system"? Was something lost in translation? Was "propulsion" meant?

 

The only designs of a non-nuclear submarine with a turbine system that I know about are a pre-WWI design with power storage with caustic soda solution and of course the Walther turbine boat designs of WW2.

Other than that, I only know of turbochargers for diesels, but why would one mention them specifically?

 

MESMA

 

The French MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) system is offered by French shipyard DCNS. MESMA is available for the Agosta 90B and Scorpène-class submarines. It is essentially a modified version of their nuclear propulsion system with heat generated by ethanol and oxygen. Specifically, a conventional steam turbine power plant is powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

[Simon Tan]

Operated by Malaysia.

[JasonJ]

 

 

 

That's a Zwardviis clone:

 

That image looks like the Zwaardvis/Hai Long except for the x shaped fins. An evolutionary design proposal or is an image of a design for the new Taiwan sub?

 

[Josh]

There won't be a Taiwanese sub, so presumably the former.

[RETAC21]

 

 

 

That's a Zwardviis clone:

 

That image looks like the Zwaardvis/Hai Long except for the x shaped fins. An evolutionary design proposal or is an image of a design for the new Taiwan sub?

 

 

My guess is that they are reverse engineering their subs and adding a MESMA based plant.

[JasonJ]

There won't be a Taiwanese sub, so presumably the former.

 

 

That image looks like the Zwaardvis/Hai Long except for the x shaped fins. An evolutionary design proposal or is an image of a design for the new Taiwan sub?

 

 

My guess is that they are reverse engineering their subs and adding a MESMA based plant.

 

 

There was an interesting and very recent post about the Taiwanese sub program in the Submarine Matters blog which more or less thinks the reverse engineering idea is what is to come about, with the tech gaps filled in by external help: http://gentleseas.blogspot.jp/2018/04/how-could-taiwan-build-submarine.html

Edited April 14, 2018 by JasonJ

[chino]

They've built a fighter jet, so they should be able to gather enough tech to build a sub... eventually?