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Colin

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11 minutes ago, Adam_S said:

Israel, UK, Canada, most of Europe...

Cases are coming down in New South Wales too actually.

Correlation, not causation. Georgia and Florida's COVID case rates are dropping as well. We did not do the mandatory masking and closure. Is NSW Covid free?

So, you don't have the control you thought to indicate a change based on the method.

 

11 minutes ago, Adam_S said:

Uttar Pradesh also sounds like it's well ahead of most of India in terms of vaccinations FWIW and have been smashing it with their test and trace program too

Test and Trace in India?

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3 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Correlation, not causation. Georgia and Florida's COVID case rates are dropping as well. We did not do the mandatory masking and closure. Is NSW Covid free?

No it's not covid free but it is trending downwards. Guess what's happening to Florida's and Georgia's vaccination rates?

4 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Test and Trace in India?

Apparently so.

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1 minute ago, Adam_S said:

No it's not covid free but it is trending downwards. Guess what's happening to Florida's and Georgia's vaccination rates?

Apparently so.

We knew it was going to trend downwards just based on what we saw in the UK. I stated as such a few weeks back when one of the chattering fools wrote that everything I typed was wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Or Tylenol  or anything else with acetaminophen? Note how that's not OTC? oh wait.

Your point?

Are you saying that people should be allowed to down handfuls of whatever pills they want because of something they read on Facebook?

I don't know how it works in the US, but here, like most countries, doctors are expected to follow guidelines based on scientific evidence.

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3 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Correlation, not causation. Georgia and Florida's COVID case rates are dropping as well. We did not do the mandatory masking and closure. Is NSW Covid free?

So, you don't have the control you thought to indicate a change based on the method.

 

Test and Trace in India?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/1-1-of-up-is-now-fully-vaccinated/articleshow/86354448.cms
 

Vaccination rate in Uttar Pradesh is over the top! They just arrived to 11% (that is, e-l-e-v-e-n) on September, 20th, 2021.

Vaccination rate in Israel is 62% full vaccinated.

Then someone talks about "emotions".

Another reason to not engage in discussion with some kinds of people.

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Are you keeping up?

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

In case it's not clear, the link points at the approval for normal use as a vaccine to prevent COVID-19 for people above the age of 16. It remains an EUA only for those below the age of 16 and as a third "booster" jab for certain groups of immunocompromised people.

So, why are you pushing a drug that doesn't even gat as far as having an EUA against a drug that has FDA approval?

You seem to be arguing that the vaccine should be eschewed because it "only" has an EUA - demonstrably wrong - in favour of a drug that doesn't even reach that standard.

You know, conspiracy theories and tinfoil hattery work so much better if they're at least internally consistent. You all need to up your game.

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5 minutes ago, sunday said:

Vaccination rate in Uttar Pradesh is over the top! They just arrived to 11% (that is, e-l-e-v-e-n) on September, 20th, 2021.

It says 100 million people here.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/data-story-uttar-pradesh-s-vaccination-tally-crosses-100-million-milestone-121092100393_1.html

 

According to this, the state has the highest vaccination rate in India.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/highest-in-india-ups-vax-rate-ahead-of-us-russia-mohfw/articleshow/86129801.cms

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Is there any VAERS data for that vaccine, DB?

I do not know of many people dying from taking the recommended dose of Ivermectin with a doctor nearby. There are some deaths because Ivermectin overdose without medical supervision, and the amount is not in the hundreds range.

Compare that with the VAERS data on vaccines, that albeit incomplete, shows some thousands of deaths after the normal, supervised administering of the vaccine.

Edited by sunday
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14 minutes ago, Adam_S said:

Can I give information about how much of the stuff people have been taking? Probably not because I don't think that's been published. There is this from the CDC.

 

14 minutes ago, Adam_S said:

Where's the data on actual calls to poison control? OR are those examples of people calling to ask about something related? 

How many calls are there from Tylenol over doses and associated liver damage or severe cases?

14 minutes ago, Adam_S said:

How so?

The EUAs' only allow the uncertified meds IF theres no alternative treatment. 

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/mcm-legal-regulatory-and-policy-framework/emergency-use-authorization
Under section 564 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act), when the Secretary of HHS declares that an emergency use authorization is appropriate, FDA may authorize unapproved medical products or unapproved uses of approved medical products to be used in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions caused by CBRN threat agents when certain criteria are met, including there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives.

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3 minutes ago, sunday said:

Is there any VAERS data for that vaccine, DB?

I do not know of many people dying from taking the recommended dose Ivermectin with a doctor nearby. There are some deaths because Ivermectin overdose without medical supervision, and the amount is not in the hundreds range.
 

Folks in Africa with less education manage to take it safely for years. 
 

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1 minute ago, rmgill said:

Folks in Africa with less education manage to take it safely for years. 
 

Exactly, and you have met several of those. With a bit more education, of course.

But when the bureaucracy decrees that a doctor could lose his license for prescribing Ivermectin, self-medication is often the only solution, then crap could happen.

Edited by sunday
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There are strong indications that it can help, from a multiple sources of scientifically gathered data. Listen to Campbell in the video above, he does not talk shit (and is also a strong proponent of mass vaccination, so no conspiracy theory level stuff).

I really don't understand why people can not admit that both vaccines and other medications have their place in threating covid. It always has to be "one or other". If you are uncertain about aftereffects, have people sign "I accept risk" paper, like they do for the vaccines.

It is just like those people who claim that everything in military is obsolete just because one weapon system that is their favorite pet.

Edited by bojan
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16 minutes ago, DB said:

Are you keeping up?

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

In case it's not clear, the link points at the approval for normal use as a vaccine to prevent COVID-19 for people above the age of 16. It remains an EUA only for those below the age of 16 and as a third "booster" jab for certain groups of immunocompromised people.

 

I am hearing a point that Comirnaty is not actually available in the US. there being some specific difference between the Aussie and US Pfizer versions. The fact that other vaccines are still in use under the EUA points to this. If Comirnaty was available, then the EUAs for the others would be terminated. 

16 minutes ago, DB said:

So, why are you pushing a drug that doesn't even gat as far as having an EUA against a drug that has FDA approval?

You seem to be arguing that the vaccine should be eschewed because it "only" has an EUA - demonstrably wrong - in favour of a drug that doesn't even reach that standard.


Sorry, plenty of things out there are used off label and don't have FDA approval for that specific thing. Aspirin was like that for heart attacks when I was working in the cardiology department at Emory. My boss, a cardiologist who had some risk of problems in his family was taking a daily regimen of aspirin as a mild blood thinner.

Here's the FDA approval for it in 2014 iinm.
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/information-consumers-and-patients-drugs/use-aspirin-primary-prevention-heart-attack-and-stroke

I was working for Doctor Klein in 1994! Don't try to feed us some bullcrap about what is and is not FDA approved vis a vis off label. Point of order, several companies came out with heart attack and stroke prevention aspirin that was approved for that. 81mg doses or what not. They call it Vazalore among others. More or less the same thing as in what is in the OTC medication that everyone takes for a headache as far as I know. 

 

16 minutes ago, DB said:

You know, conspiracy theories and tinfoil hattery work so much better if they're at least internally consistent. You all need to up your game.

Internal consistency? Did you follow what we followed on this thread vis a vis COVID over the development of the pandemic when we were seeing it as a problem before national governments did? 

Do you see how your point about FDA approval being the end all be all is Bullcrap. When a professor of Cardiology is able to read papers on Aspirin effects on blood thinners and already understands its other side effects and starts taking it himself. Who's got internal consistency problems?

We know what Ivermectin does for dosages. Millions of doses. This sudden attempt to paint it as horse paste while restricting supply and then pointing to possible over doses from misuse of the types available, the people in charge of that should be shot. 

If it might work but has no negative side effects it would be at worse a placebo. Let people take it in the standard 2 pills per month form and let the medical types work through the efficacy and publish their effectiveness or not. 

Frankly if they do find that is marginally effective, I'm be fine with if folks who restricted supply be taken out and thrown in prison. 
 

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18 minutes ago, Adam_S said:

Wow, sounds amazing. If only there was some kind of actual evidence it treated covid.

Go back through and look at the "development" that Aspirin works as a preventative and therapeutic for heart attacks and strokes. I was there, in 1994, working in a cardiac cath lab with a doctor doing some incremental ground breaking work on Heart Attack prevention and Stent use. He was on board with it then. There were papers 10 years later still sorting out if there really was a use or not. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16490462/

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Here's a prediction. A BioTech company is going to tweak Ivermectin's molecule just enough to get a patent. Then they'll get it approved as a COVID/Antiviral treatment. And then the cricket noises will start. 

 

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23 minutes ago, bojan said:

There are strong indications that it can help, from a multiple sources of scientifically gathered data. Listen to Campbell in the video above, he does not talk shit (and is also a strong proponent of mass vaccination, so no conspiracy theory level stuff).

I really don't understand why people can not admit that both vaccines and other medications have their place in threating covid. It always has to be "one or other". If you are uncertain about aftereffects, have people sign "I accept risk" paper, like they do for the vaccines.

It is just like those people who claim that everything in military is obsolete just because one weapon system that is their favorite pet.

Indeed, a point very well made in this presentation Skylwalkre posted

 

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35 minutes ago, bojan said:

There are strong indications that it can help, from a multiple sources of scientifically gathered data. Listen to Campbell in the video above, he does not talk shit (and is also a strong proponent of mass vaccination, so no conspiracy theory level stuff).

I really don't understand why people can not admit that both vaccines and other medications have their place in threating covid. It always has to be "one or other". If you are uncertain about aftereffects, have people sign "I accept risk" paper, like they do for the vaccines.

It is just like those people who claim that everything in military is obsolete just because one weapon system that is their favorite pet.

Quite agree, with the proviso that safety should be a priority.

Of course, safety could be weighed by the circumstances of the patient, like age, general health, obesity, etc.

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Safety of who? Population or one individual? And before you accuse me of supporting totalitarianism... that is how our world and every safety rule works, by balancing cost/risk/benefits w/o real concern for an individual. Medicine works same way, if needed, by having triage that is not led by the concern for an individual as such, but for the whole population.

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Well, given that vitamin d is one of the ways of helping covid cases not be bad, you’d think that the demands to stay home and inside would be contra indicated. But no..its not. 

 

Getting people out on nature trails, beaches, hikes and the like would be best. Why? Restricting everyone at home increases risks of sever infections. 

 

Also, in free western societies, where does that safety/freedom balance point lie? it is supposed to lie closer to the risky side. otherwise, why so we let Australians live there at all with salties and funnel webs and the like?

Edited by rmgill
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https://babylonbee.com/news/australian-hospitals-over-capacity-with-people-beaten-by-police-for-not-wearing-masks?utm_source=Gab&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=Gab

 

Quote

"Well, bugger! It's way over capacity here, mate," said one nurse in Sydney. "By the beard of a Koala! We got way too many wankers comin' on in here and gettin' all cracked up by the bloody coppers, mate." In American English, this apparently means, "Well, gosh darn it all! There's too many people in this hospital, y'all. By the beard of Abraham Lincoln! We have way too many people coming into this here hospital and getting beat up by the popo, dude."

 

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3 hours ago, sunday said:

And the next paragraph:....

According to medical professionals in Australia, the concerning rise in people getting absolutely demolished by the police and having to get rushed to the hospital is exacerbated by the fact that hospitals are already overwhelmed with people who got bit by two-story-tall spiders, punched by kangaroos, and elbow-dropped by drop bears.

 

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