JWB Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 Perhaps it might be possible to do a population switch? Azeris in Nakhchivan could move to NK while Armenians who are leaving NK could move to Nakhchivan ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaA Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, JWB said: Perhaps it might be possible to do a population switch? Azeris in Nakhchivan could move to NK while Armenians who are leaving NK could move to Nakhchivan ? Population exchange between one region of Azerbaijan to another region of Azerbaijan? Armenians would still be under Azerbaijani jurisdiction in Nakhchivan, which is what they reject. Edited September 29, 2023 by AttilaA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 18 minutes ago, AttilaA said: Population exchange between one region of Azerbaijan to another region of Azerbaijan? Armenians would still be under Azerbaijani jurisdiction in Nakhchivan, which is what they reject. I am talking about a full switch including national government authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaA Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JWB said: I am talking about a full switch including national government authority. I don’t think you thought it through, but both Nakhchivan and Karabakh is territory of Azerbaijan. Karabakh is not “disputed” as you might have read on wikipedia (perhaps). So you are saying that Azerbaijan should give away Nakhchivan to Armenia, in exchange for Karabakh, which is also a part of Azerbaijan? What is Armenia exchanging here? The so-called “NKR” is dissolved, so Azerbaijan’s sovereignity over Karabakh is now both de-jure AND de-facto. Edited September 29, 2023 by AttilaA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandeb48 Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 On 8/4/2023 at 3:19 PM, mandeb48 said: OKAY. I guess you are Azerbaijani. I also think that the Republic of Artsakh will disappear relatively soon, but that is not the end of the story, there will continue to be an unfriendly population which an ugly history of ethnic hatred that can lead to revenge. How do you imagine the reintegration will be, with a stick and carrots? more sticks than carrots? promoting the integration of the local population to azerbaijan or happy if they emigrate to a neighboring country.... I know nobody has a crystal ball, but how is the feeling of the average Azerbaijani citizen on this issue? The question answered itself, there won't be many Armenians in Karabahad.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 3 minutes ago, AttilaA said: Azerbaijan should give away Nakhchivan to Armenia ............. Why not. it is entirely enclosed in Armenia. It has happened before: Bangladesh; India: Decades-Long Border Dispute Resolved Through Implementation of Land Swap Agreement | Library of Congress (loc.gov) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaA Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, JWB said: Why not. it is entirely enclosed in Armenia. It has happened before: Bangladesh; India: Decades-Long Border Dispute Resolved Through Implementation of Land Swap Agreement | Library of Congress (loc.gov) Nakhchivan also borders Iran and Turkey, so you are wrong. The first and foremost problem with your suggestion is that Armenia is not swapping or giving away land in your scenario. This is like suggesting that USA should give Alaska to Canada in exchange for Minnesota, also US territory Edited September 29, 2023 by AttilaA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 3 minutes ago, AttilaA said: Armenia is not swapping land in your scenario ❔ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaA Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 Indeed ???????? Take care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Becker Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 56 minutes ago, JWB said: Perhaps it might be possible to do a population switch? Azeris in Nakhchivan could move to NK while Armenians who are leaving NK could move to Nakhchivan ? They seem to want a land bridge to Turkey and so far conquest and ethnic cleansing seems to have worked quite well for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 9 minutes ago, AttilaA said: Indeed ???????? Take care. Stop being sarcastic. NK was territory of Armenia until they ceded it at gun point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 The establishment of Pakistan and India showed how well the above proposed solution works, I feel. There will always be some shiny piece of land to fight over. Actually, it doesn't matter if it's shiny, it could be bare desert and there would still be some excuse. I wonder, can the British be blamed for this one? It's traditional to blame some pith-helmeted cartography with a shaky hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, DB said: ...I wonder, can the British be blamed for this one?... https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/dunsterforce-caucasus I am sure both sides can find something they did not like there, so old "blame the Brits" game can be continued. Edited September 29, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 1 hour ago, JWB said: Stop being sarcastic. NK was territory of Armenia until they ceded it at gun point. No, it was the territory of the unrecognized (even by Armenia) Republic of Artsakh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 7 hours ago, urbanoid said: ......... unrecognized .............. Diplomatic formality. All that matters is who occupies what. The ongoing century of hostilities was triggered by Lenin's desire to steal Azeri oil. It was perhaps the first example of Soviet real politik where local agitators would engage in provocations to give Moscow a reason to invade. Very mafia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaA Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) “Lesser sins” he says. https://x.com/drradchenko/status/1707978742750982490?s=46 According to wikipedia, more than 8 thousand Albanians were killed during Kosovo war. Armenian civilian casualties in latest Azerbaijani military operation? 10. Any deliberate targeting of civilians by Azerbaijani army? No. And is Azerbaijan forcing them to leave? According to themselves, no. They rather leave than live under Azerbaijani jurisdiction. Unbelievable hypocricy. Edited September 30, 2023 by AttilaA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 22 hours ago, urbanoid said: The West didn't do shit when the Azeris were ethnically cleansed in the early 90s either - and that one was far more brutal. Well, Armenians were also were ethnically cleansed in the early 90s (and even late 1980th, when USSR was still officially there) - for example, Armenian population of Baku (about 475K by mid-1970th) is almost entirely gone, mostly to Russia (if survived of course). Also, lots of Russian left this places.... Unfortunatelly the situation when mixed population of ethnic groups that historically dislike each other still peacefully coexist is possible only within empire-like structure ruled by thisd power (be it, in AZ-AM case, Persians or Russians). Othervisde it is bloodbuth <iframe src="https://vk.com/video_ext.php?oid=44384532&id=171390210&hash=e19c9c6de5e306f1" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="1" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture"></iframe> https://vk.com/video44384532_171390210?list=2821da6d41d52e0795 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaA Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: Well, Armenians were also were ethnically cleansed in the early 90s (and even late 1980th, when USSR was still officially there) - for example, Armenian population of Baku (about 475K by mid-1970th) is almost entirely gone, mostly to Russia (if survived of course). Also, lots of Russian left this places.... Unfortunatelly the situation when mixed population of ethnic groups that historically dislike each other still peacefully coexist is possible only within empire-like structure ruled by thisd power (be it, in AZ-AM case, Persians or Russians). Othervisde it is bloodbuth <iframe src="https://vk.com/video_ext.php?oid=44384532&id=171390210&hash=e19c9c6de5e306f1" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="1" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture"></iframe> https://vk.com/video44384532_171390210?list=2821da6d41d52e0795 And Azerbaijanis in Armenia? What happened to them? 1897 census of Yerevan: 51% Tatars (Azerbaijanis), 34% Armenians. PS: Azerbaijanis were never ruled by Persians. The ruling dynasty of Iran was Qajars until 1925, and also at the time of Russian invasion of Caucasus in early 1800s. It’s reported that early Qajar kings had a very poor command of Persian language. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_(tribe) In territories of both modern-day Azerbaijan and Armenia there were different Khanates who were vassals of Qajar Iran. Those Khanates were ruled by Azerbaijani origin Khans, including on territory of modern-day Armenian (Irevan Khanate). What’s Persian about any of that, I have no idea. Edited September 30, 2023 by AttilaA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 19 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said: Well, Armenians were also were ethnically cleansed in the early 90s (and even late 1980th, when USSR was still officially there) - for example, Armenian population of Baku (about 475K by mid-1970th) is almost entirely gone, mostly to Russia (if survived of course). Also, lots of Russian left this places.... Unfortunatelly the situation when mixed population of ethnic groups that historically dislike each other still peacefully coexist is possible only within empire-like structure ruled by thisd power (be it, in AZ-AM case, Persians or Russians). Othervisde it is bloodbuth <iframe src="https://vk.com/video_ext.php?oid=44384532&id=171390210&hash=e19c9c6de5e306f1" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="1" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture"></iframe> https://vk.com/video44384532_171390210?list=2821da6d41d52e0795 Or maybe they should just be separated, without imperial bullshit interfering with their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaA Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Or maybe they should just be separated, without imperial bullshit interfering with their lives. This was in 1900s, when Russian Empire was still in place: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian–Tatar_massacres_of_1905–1907 What he will not tell you is that Russian Empire massively settled Armenians from Iran in Caucasus. Yes, I will admit that those Armenians in Iran were forcibly relocated from Caucasus during Safavid Empire in first place (1600s), so they were “brought back” if you will, but it’s thanks to Russia that there is today a sizeable Armenian presence in Caucasus + modern-day state of Armenia. And also all these ethno wars. Edited September 30, 2023 by AttilaA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 He wrote that "for a long time Russian policy was made in the Caucasus against the Armenians" and that "Russian policy aroused the Tatars against the Armenians, who themselves were not suspected of intellectualism".[31] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 1 hour ago, JWB said: He wrote that "for a long time Russian policy was made in the Caucasus against the Armenians" and that "Russian policy aroused the Tatars against the Armenians, who themselves were not suspected of intellectualism".[31] Armenian (and, to less degree, Georgian) nobiles always considered Russians to be sort of upstarts from North who are inferrior of ancient history of this lands. To great degree, it is also effecting their relations with Turks (and they consider AZ just another tribe of Turks) who came to the regions when written history of what is now Armenia and Georgia were allredy senturies old. Interestingly, Armenians seems to tolerate Persians who are at least equally ancient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 7 hours ago, Roman Alymov said: Armenians seems to tolerate Persians who are at least equally ancient. Probably because Persian empires tended to be soft hand instead of iron fist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 Stepanakert central square after Armenian population left. Looks like Sci-Fi scene https://t.me/historiographe/9215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Alymov Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 11 hours ago, JWB said: Probably because Persian empires tended to be soft hand instead of iron fist. All Empires tend to be "soft hand" when things are good, but sometimes bad times come - see the reasons of attack on Rus Embassy in Teregan in 1829. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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