Armenia Azerbaijan Conflict

[AttilaA]

23 hours ago, glenn239 said:

A bit of column A, a bit of column B on that one.  I'm not sure what to make of the situation, but it seems to me as first principle that the Azeris were using the Ukraine distraction to pursue objectives that I don't think the Russians, Iranians or Chinese were entirely happy with.  The theory was that in this region the Russians lacked troop numbers because of Ukraine.  Well, given Russian mobilization, that's about to change.   

What are Baku and Moscow talking about these days?  The EU wants gas from Azerbaijan.  The Russians presumably are not against that, but will also want the option to order Baku to shut off the taps if necessary?

So I guess my question is, if after a large mobilization Moscow asks Baku to embargo Europe on gas supplies in exchange for a sympathetic attitude on your tensions with Armenia, what would be the response?

What objectives exactly? It says in the ceasefire agreement:

“The Republic of Armenia shall guarantee the security of transport connections between the western regions of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic in order to arrange unobstructed movement of persons, vehicles and cargo in both directions.”

Armenia is walking back on this, saying that Azerbaijani civilians, vehicles etc must be subject to Armenian customs yet the agreement clearly says: Unobstructed movement. 

Russia has bases in Armenia with set number of troops, so I don’t know what you are talking about. As for Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh, it’s a contingent of 1960 peacekeepers and can’t be increased without Azerbaijan’s approval. Neither Russian troops in Armenia, nor Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh went to Ukraine. 

Azerbaijan does not compete with Russia on gas supplies. 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by AttilaA

[Yama]

11 hours ago, AttilaA said:

Are you seriously comparing massacres of civilians in Bucha etc to this? 

Are you seriously not? You shoot people you're not supposed to lawfully shoot, I'm not sure what else to compare it to.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Yama

[AttilaA]

12 hours ago, AttilaA said:

Are you seriously comparing massacres of civilians in Bucha etc to this? 

Go ahead, if Armenian army and the state is also held accountable for their war crimes. Including launching ballistic missiles at residental areas. Otherwise you don’t make sense. 

You ignored rest of my comment, of course.

Moreover, when these people are held accountable by EU, then you can talk:

“Twenty years ago this week, the worst episode of the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict over Nagorny Karabakh occurred near the small town of Khojali. On the bitterly cold morning of February 26, 1992, more than 400 Azerbaijanis fleeing the town were killed by Armenian soldiers or paramilitary fighters. The victims included military personnel but the great majority of them were civilians. The killings were documented in detail by journalists at the time and later by the human rights organizations Human Rights Watch and Memorial.”

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2012/02/24/president-interview-and-tragic-anniversary-pub-47283

Even during the recent 2nd Karabakh War, more Azerbaijani civilians died than Armenian civilians as Armenia deliberately targeted civilians. No, Azerbaijan is not Russia and has never been in this conflict. What am I supposed to tell to people who can barely point out Azerbaijan or Armenia on a map? Do you understand that Armenians not only occupied former Nagorno Karabakh Oblast (which had Armenian majority but also a sizeable Azerbaijani minority that was nearly 30% of the population, all ethnically cleansed, including the town of Khojaly that you can read about in above quote) but also 7 districts outside of it almost 3 times the size of NKAO and where only Azerbaijanis lived? 700 thousand Azerbaijanis were ethnically cleansed from those districts (while the entire Armenian population of NKAO was and is 100-150 thousand). Again, did you see the picture of Agdam that I posted? A town of 30k turned into rubble AFTER the war had ended, as a result of looting. EVERY Azerbaijani settlement had the same fate, nothing remains. 

Everything that happens now is a result of that first war. The West acted like nothing had happened in those 30 years that led to 2nd Karabakh War.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by AttilaA

[johnthejock]

21 minutes ago, AttilaA said:

Everything that happens now is a result of that first war. The West acted like nothing had happened in those 30 years that led to 2nd Karabakh War.

Oh if we are going to do history how interesting you tell only half the picture, or even far, far than less than half the picture.  How about Askeran, or the Sumgait pogrom or the Baku pogrom all instigated by Azeris and was the initial violence, and please do not try to bring in what happened afterwards as look see what we have to deal with, when this was all started by the Azeris.  Its a bit like Turks trying to justify the Armenian genocide by pointing at their failure in invading the Russian empire and ignoring the Hamidian massacres. 

There is something really wrong about a state/country which has such a fragile ego that it changes animals names because they have Armenia or Kurdistan in their nomenaclature or one which tries to deliberately wipe out a peoples graves because they remind them that they were not there first, it makes them no different from ISIS in their actions.

https://iwpr.net/global-voices/azerbaijan-famous-medieval-cemetery-vanishes 

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/mar/01/monumental-loss-azerbaijan-cultural-genocide-khachkars

 

[AttilaA]

9 hours ago, johnthejock said:

Oh if we are going to do history how interesting you tell only half the picture, or even far, far than less than half the picture.  How about Askeran, or the Sumgait pogrom or the Baku pogrom all instigated by Azeris and was the initial violence, and please do not try to bring in what happened afterwards as look see what we have to deal with, when this was all started by the Azeris.  Its a bit like Turks trying to justify the Armenian genocide by pointing at their failure in invading the Russian empire and ignoring the Hamidian massacres. 

There is something really wrong about a state/country which has such a fragile ego that it changes animals names because they have Armenia or Kurdistan in their nomenaclature or one which tries to deliberately wipe out a peoples graves because they remind them that they were not there first, it makes them no different from ISIS in their actions.

https://iwpr.net/global-voices/azerbaijan-famous-medieval-cemetery-vanishes 

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/mar/01/monumental-loss-azerbaijan-cultural-genocide-khachkars

 

Initial violence was started by Armenians in Kapan (Southern Armenia) in 1987. Azerbaijanis were also deported from Göyçə region (eastern and north-eastern Armenia where Azerbaijanis lived compactly) in 1989. But tell me how Sumgait can justify the occupation of Azerbaijani territories.

Besides, “Miatsum” had become mainstream Armenian ideology long before Sumgait. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miatsum

Karabakh War was result of this “miatsum” ideology.

For someone who claims to present the “whole picture”, you are sure awful at it. Your comments are basically “bad Azerbaijan and Turkey are out to genocide Armenia”. Meanwhile, it was Armenia that occupied Azerbaijani lands and ethnically cleansed 800 thousand people from those occupied lands, not the other way around. 
 

Armenians are so good at preserving and respecting Azerbaijan heritage that they present mosques built by Azerbaijani Khanates as “Persian” (only one remain in Armenia), or calling monuments, mausoleums “Mongolian” etc. 

The official discourse in Armenia is that “Azerbaijanis are nomads and have nothing to do with these lands”. This is an actual quote from an Armenian priest. 

A church with racist, militant views. A nice sign of a peaceful nation. They were also very peaceful under Ottoman Empire, and never called for armed uprisings in which hundreds of thousands of Muslims were murdered, right? Are you telling the whole picture?

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by AttilaA

[Daan]

Perhaps you should read your own Wiki-link before posting it, as it undermines your argument by noting administrative support during the Communist era for Azeri settlement in historically Armenian majority lands.

Regardless, obscure historical resentment provides no sympathy in this day and age for stomping on the weaker party in his own home, well perhaps ignoring circles of feverish pan-Turkic nationalists. Nonetheless, we may congratulate the Azeris for their clever opportunism this year. 

[AttilaA]

7 hours ago, Daan said:

Perhaps you should read your own Wiki-link before posting it, as it undermines your argument by noting administrative support during the Communist era for Azeri settlement in historically Armenian majority lands.

Regardless, obscure historical resentment provides no sympathy in this day and age for stomping on the weaker party in his own home, well perhaps ignoring circles of feverish pan-Turkic nationalists. Nonetheless, we may congratulate the Azeris for their clever opportunism this year. 

Wikipedia is full of Armenian editors. It’s never ever not biased in these topics. I posted that link only to show what “Miatsum” is. It’s the reason for the Karabakh war.
 

Pashinyan himself was chanting “miatsum” in Karabakh in 2018.

Edited October 3, 2022 by AttilaA

[glenn239]

19 hours ago, AttilaA said:

Russia has bases in Armenia with set number of troops, so I don’t know what you are talking about. As for Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh, it’s a contingent of 1960 peacekeepers and can’t be increased without Azerbaijan’s approval. Neither Russian troops in Armenia, nor Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh went to Ukraine. 
 

 

Ok, so the Azeris and the Russians/Iranians are on very good terms at the moment?

[urbanoid]

36 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

Ok, so the Azeris and the Russians/Iranians are on very good terms at the moment?

What does it even matter as long as the Azeris have Turkish support? And relations with Russia don't look that bad at the moment, they may actually be better than Russia-Armenia relations.

[AttilaA]

Israeli defence minister is on a visit to Azerbaijan.

“President of the Republic of Azerbaijan Ilham Aliyev has received Minister of Defense of Israel Benjamin Gantz.

The sides exchanged views on the long-term military-technical cooperation between the two countries and prospects in this area.”

https://president.az/en/articles/view/57457

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by AttilaA

[AttilaA]

@johnthejock

Got anything to say?

 

 

 

[johnthejock]

29 minutes ago, AttilaA said:

@johnthejock

Got anything to say?

 

 

 

And you wish me to defend the indefensible, as I wont, I condemn it just as I condemn Azeri actions, now would you do so if it was on the other foot, such as the murder of Armenian civilians? Or the murder of Armenian POW's both of which have been widely documented, not just in this round of conflict but over and over and over again. What is different between the Armenian and Azeri/Turks is that they were nearly extinguished as a people, in a deliberately planned set of actions which was official policy, this cannot be said in reverse, nevermind trying to accuse the Armenians of doing so, and I reiterate there are among the Turks and the Azeris both as policymakers and in the general population  a wish to extinguish the Armenians as a people but also to wipe every trace of them off the earth as if they have never ever existed.... and before you deny it the past deeds of Turks and Azeri  prove otherwise.

In addition and I am leaving it at that, is that my great grandfather was in Baku in 1918 so I am painfully aware of what has happened, so please do not waste your time to try to convert me to your 'side'. 

[AttilaA]

20 hours ago, johnthejock said:

And you wish me to defend the indefensible, as I wont, I condemn it just as I condemn Azeri actions, now would you do so if it was on the other foot, such as the murder of Armenian civilians? Or the murder of Armenian POW's both of which have been widely documented, not just in this round of conflict but over and over and over again. What is different between the Armenian and Azeri/Turks is that they were nearly extinguished as a people, in a deliberately planned set of actions which was official policy, this cannot be said in reverse, nevermind trying to accuse the Armenians of doing so, and I reiterate there are among the Turks and the Azeris both as policymakers and in the general population  a wish to extinguish the Armenians as a people but also to wipe every trace of them off the earth as if they have never ever existed.... and before you deny it the past deeds of Turks and Azeri  prove otherwise.

In addition and I am leaving it at that, is that my great grandfather was in Baku in 1918 so I am painfully aware of what has happened, so please do not waste your time to try to convert me to your 'side'. 

I already wrote that the soldiers who did that should be punished (Azerbaijan has already started an invesigation). I have yet to see an Armenian admit to war crimes, let alone condemn it. They are widely documented too. 

Again, Armenia invaded Azerbaijani settlements, ethnically cleansed more than half million within Azerbaijan’s own borders, turned occupied settlements into rubble. So who has tried to wipe off the trace of the other people, you tell me. 

Suddenly when they lose the war, they turn into victims.

What happened in Ottoman Empire has nothing to do with Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijan was part of the Russian Empire in 1800s and early 1900s until it became independent in 1918 (Bolshevik invasion 2 years later in 1920).

Your comments do not go further than “Azerbaijan and Turkey is trying to genocide Armenians”. Meanwhile Armenia is supported by both Russia and the West. Don’t worry, Armenia’s existence is not at risk. But they should recognize Azerbaijan’s borders and end the conflict once and for all. Azerbaijan does not demand something outragous, it demands recognition of its internationally recognized borders which which includes Karabakh. Armenia refuses to do that, why is Azerbaijan supposed to respect Armenia’s borders? 

Recognize the borders and sign the peace treaty and this conflict ends. Very simple. 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by AttilaA

[AttilaA]

Sanctions?

 

[Daan]

Sanctions for something that happened 30 years ago in a really peripheral location and affected none of the major powers materially? Do you know of a precedent? Does it make current Azeri behavior more palatable to the outside world?

[Daan]

Vae victis:

[Roman Alymov]

13 hours ago, Daan said:

Vae victis:

 

There is a popular joke about this negotiation process circulating in RuNet (well understandable for post-Soviets) with title "Pashinyan lost gambling Karabakh to Aliev".

note it is not original picture, of course they were not playing backgammon (kniwn as Nardy in our region after ancient Persian name)

[AttilaA]

S-300PMU2 division protecting Mingachevir reservoir. This division intercepted several Scud ballistic missiles fired at Mingachevir during the 2nd Karabakh War. 

Note the kill marks on one of the TELs.

 

[Roman Alymov]

21 hours ago, AttilaA said:

S-300PMU2 division protecting Mingachevir reservoir. This division intercepted several Scud ballistic missiles fired at Mingachevir during the 2nd Karabakh War. 

Note the kill marks on one of the TELs.

 

Interesting that unlike on AM side, some efforts were made to cover the positions....

  Meanwhile reports are coming about AZ Embassy car shot at in Washington, DC on Oct, 10

https://t.me/WhiteHouseCards/28002

 

[AttilaA]

Azerbaijani Mi-17 with Spectro XR EO system.

Allegedly Azerbaijan also wanted to equip TB2s with Spectro XR following the Wescam ban on MX-15, but it was rejected by Baykar (manufacturer of TB2). New batches of TB2s delivered to Azerbaijan are instead equipped with Hensoldt Argos 2. Spectro XR is clearly superior to Argos 2.

Edited October 17, 2022 by AttilaA

[AttilaA]

 

 

[AttilaA]

Heron: 284, 285, 287

[AttilaA]

Engineering units: TMM-6, MTU-90M, IMR-3M, MEMATT

 

 

 

[AttilaA]

Aselsan TASMUS, 60 systems in service with Azerbaijani army.

“TASMUS, Tactical Area Communications System is a network centric communication infrastructure that enables obtaining a common picture of the battlefield in near-real time and sharing data among battlefield systems in near-real time.”

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by AttilaA

[lucklucky]

Directional comms.