Armenia Azerbaijan Conflict

[AttilaA]

16 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Interesting that Harops are operated by Border Guards usually seen in West as lesser troops. What is their organization level in Azerbaijan army?

Border Troops are a branch of State Border Service that also include the Coast Guard, so they are not tied to Azerbaijan armed forces. However, they have the role of supporting combat operations of army in event of a war.  

They took part in combat operations along the Azerbaijan-Iran border that were under Armenian occupation, districts of Jabrayil and Zengilan.

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by AttilaA

[lucklucky]

How the Harops ended as BT  assets, or was only handed over for the operation?  They need training and a good communications/order system.

[AttilaA]

On 5/2/2021 at 12:52 AM, lucklucky said:

How the Harops ended as BT  assets, or was only handed over for the operation?  They need training and a good communications/order system.

Harop was procured by Border Guards. They also operate Hermes 450 & Hermes 900 UAVs. They are kind of a «second army» in Azerbaijan, a bit more militarized than Border Guards in other countries.

Edited May 5, 2021 by AttilaA

[lucklucky]

Ok

[AttilaA]

Azerbaijan MOD published footage of TB2 crew conducting training flights + strikes with MAM-L munition.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by AttilaA

[AttilaA]

Mi-17 with Spike NLOS missiles.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by AttilaA

[AttilaA]

Footage of Spike ER strike on bunker & Spike LR strike on KS-19 AA gun.

 

[TonyE]

Don't know if it has been posted before, a picture database on the losses of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2020/09/the-fight-for-nagorno-karabakh.html

I assume that the armenian army and artsakh defence force losses are counted together.

[glenn239]

Wow that list really drives home the hammering drones and loitering munitions took on Armenian forces.

[bojan]

You are not serious about AD... you suffer. You don't do any masking... you suffer. You rely on the ww1 style trenches... you suffer.

[Yama]

11 hours ago, TonyE said:

Don't know if it has been posted before, a picture database on the losses of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2020/09/the-fight-for-nagorno-karabakh.html

I assume that the armenian army and artsakh defence force losses are counted together.

I very much doubt Artsakh/Armenian side had 243 operational tanks on the front combined.

[TonyE]

11 hours ago, Yama said:

I very much doubt Artsakh/Armenian side had 243 operational tanks on the front combined.

Quite alot are captured ones, which makes me think that several artsakh motorpools/depots got captured by the azerbaijanis.

[BansheeOne]

Quote

Date 14.05.2021

Armenia accuses Azerbaijan of encroaching on its territory

Tensions between the countries are simmering again after they fought a war last year over the breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh. Azerbaijan denies the new allegations from Armenia.

Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan accused Azerbaijani troops on Thursday of encroaching on Armenian territory, months after the two countries fought a war over the breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Pashinyan claimed Azerbaijani forces advanced 3 kilometers (2 miles) into southern Armenia in an act of "infiltration." He said that Armenia's soldiers had responded with an "appropriate tactical maneuver."

"It is an encroachment on the sovereign territory of Armenia," Pashinyan said. "This is an act of subversive infiltration."  

Armenia's prosecutor general has reportedly opened a criminal case into this "infringement" of territorial integrity by Azerbaijan.

Armenia's leader accused Azerbaijan of attempting to "lay siege" to Sev Lich lake, which is divided between the two countries. 

[...]

How did Azerbaijan respond? 

Meanwhile, Azerbaijan said that Pashinyan's claims were provocative and that Armenia's border troops were "taking positions that belong to Azerbaijan" in the Lachin and Kalbajar districts.

Armenia had handed these districts over to Azerbaijan last year as part of a ceasefire agreement.

"Azerbaijan is committed to defusing the tensions in the region and urges to take steps in that direction," said the country's foreign ministry. The country dismissed the accusations and said that it was enforcing its own border. It said that Armenia's reaction to the development was "inadequate" and "provocative."

The latest tensions come after both countries last month accused the other of opening fire in Karabakh and their shared border.

https://www.dw.com/en/armenia-accuses-azerbaijan-of-encroaching-on-its-territory/a-57522753

[Yama]

29 minutes ago, TonyE said:

Quite alot are captured ones, which makes me think that several artsakh motorpools/depots got captured by the azerbaijanis.

How many motorpools and depots there are in a nation of about 150 000, with GDP per capita less than one-third of Albania? I think the 'estimates' where it was claimed pre-war that Artsakh had 180 to 300 MBT's are ridiculously overblown. We have seen that real, proper countries with defence budgets several times the entire GDP of Artsakh can't afford to operate tanks at all.

I can well believe there were ~200 tanks physically present in the Nagorno-Karabakh area, but I'd bet most of them were not operable, or even in running condition. Some might have been dug in as immobile pillboxes. I suspect most of the Azeri 'tank kills' were against unoperational vehicles, some tanks were probably hit more than once and counted 'destroyed' several times over (common BDA problem even with First World militaries, see Desert Storm) and so on.

[rohala]

Why do you separate Artsakh from Armenia? I doubt Artsakh had its own separate defense budget. And the Armenian budget can definitely support of few hundred T72s. 

Besides, based on what I've read the Arstakh corps had two infantry divisions and an armoured brigade, which if we assume it means around 5 tank battalions it suggests a tank count of around 150-200 or more. Wikipedia shows 186 T72.

[Yama]

Wikipedia lists Armenia having only about 100 T-72's, which is just believable force for country of that size. Armenian military has defence committments elsewhere too, not just Nagorno-Karabakh.

I mean, if we take the Wikipedia numbers, then Azerbaijan destroyed every single tank in both Artsakh and Armenian inventory. That sounds scarcely believable. 'Armoured brigade' is just a name and might include anything from 10 to 100 tanks, I doubt they conform to some strict ToE.

Maintaining tanks is hard. Georgia which has about 50% larger GDP than Armenia and Artsakh combined maintains a force of 100 to 120 tanks.

[bojan]

lostarmour.info

[AttilaA]

All the numbers are based on visual evidence. Should we believe our eyes or Wikipedia? If you check the blog there is are screenshots/pictures for each of them. There were really that many targeted, even if not all destroyed. Also it’s not a single guy (Oryx) doing the work, there are several people. 

Btw, why do you seem to think there was a «artsakh army» in reality? The war was between the armed forces of Azerbaijan and Armenia, and Armenia participated with everything it had, don’t take internet trolls or people who can’t swallow the truth seriously. Full general mobilization was declared on day 1 of the wr in Armenia, before Azerbaijan declared a partial mobilization next day.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by AttilaA

[rohala]

1 hour ago, Yama said:

Wikipedia lists Armenia having only about 100 T-72's, which is just believable force for country of that size. Armenian military has defence committments elsewhere too, not just Nagorno-Karabakh.

I mean, if we take the Wikipedia numbers, then Azerbaijan destroyed every single tank in both Artsakh and Armenian inventory. That sounds scarcely believable. 'Armoured brigade' is just a name and might include anything from 10 to 100 tanks, I doubt they conform to some strict ToE.

Maintaining tanks is hard. Georgia which has about 50% larger GDP than Armenia and Artsakh combined maintains a force of 100 to 120 tanks.

The GDP is not a sufficient indication. According to wikipedia the defense budget for Georgia is about 272 million USD representing 1.91% of the GDP while Armenia's is 634 million USD representing 5.5% of its GDP (I didn't check the math, I assume it is correct).

As a comparisson Cyprus has a defense budget of around 400 million Euros and maintains 2 battalions of T-80 and one of AMX30.

[AttilaA]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:51 PM, rohala said:

The GDP is not a sufficient indication. According to wikipedia the defense budget for Georgia is about 272 million USD representing 1.91% of the GDP while Armenia's is 634 million USD representing 5.5% of its GDP (I didn't check the math, I assume it is correct).

As a comparisson Cyprus has a defense budget of around 400 million Euros and maintains 2 battalions of T-80 and one of AMX30.

Besides, Armenia received second hand weaponry free of charge from Russia + discounted prices on new purchases.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by AttilaA

[glenn239]

1 minute ago, AttilaA said:

Georgia could only dream of arsenal Armenia had. Armenia also have Su-30, Iskander ballistic missiles, S-300. Georgian army looks like a police force in comprison. I think he just has no proper knowledge about the region, no offence.

A list got posted a few days ago of equipment losses.   Some of the numbers are in dispute, but if the Armenian losses were even half of what was shown, it was a major defeat with gobs of expensive equipment destroyed.

[bojan]

14 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

... it was a major defeat with gobs of expensive equipment destroyed.

No shit Sherlock.

[TonyE]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

Wikipedia lists Armenia having only about 100 T-72's, which is just believable force for country of that size. Armenian military has defence committments elsewhere too, not just Nagorno-Karabakh.

Postwar numbers, if you check the wiki edit history for the armenian army equipment page it contains hundreds of edits and updates just in the last couple of months alone.

[Yama]

2 hours ago, AttilaA said:

All the numbers are based on visual evidence. Should we believe our eyes or Wikipedia? If you check the blog there is are screenshots/pictures for each of them. There were really that many targeted, even if not all destroyed. Also it’s not a single guy (Oryx) doing the work, there are several people. 

Btw, why do you seem to think there was a «artsakh army» in reality? The war was between the armed forces of Azerbaijan and Armenia, and Armenia participated with everything it had, don’t take internet trolls or people who can’t swallow the truth seriously. Full general mobilization was declared on day 1 of the wr in Armenia, before Azerbaijan declared a partial mobilization next day.

Yes, I know how they work. I am just saying that the methodology is hardly foolproof (see much lower numbers of lostarmour, which has much more stringent documentation criteria). Even professional militaries often make gross errors and overestimates in battle damage assessments, despite use of cautious methodologies and video or photographic evidence whenever possible.

I believe in common sense, which says that there is no way financially poor entities like Artsakh Republic and Armenia can maintain a tank force running in the 400-500 figure. And it doesn't matter if they 'got them for free', it's the upkeep which is the killer. See Ukraine which had literally thousands of tanks as a legacy of the Soviet Army, and when the war came, it was able to mobilize a tiny handful of what it had.

 

[Yama]

2 hours ago, glenn239 said:

A list got posted a few days ago of equipment losses.   Some of the numbers are in dispute, but if the Armenian losses were even half of what was shown, it was a major defeat with gobs of expensive equipment destroyed.

Of course they were defeated. That said, Azeri human losses were only slightly lower, so the actual war doesn't seem to have been as one-sided as the youtube war.