Armenia Azerbaijan Conflict

[bojan]

11 minutes ago, Yama said:

...As a trivia, Finnish Army evaluated OSA-AKM (SA-8B) in the '80s and rejected it as an 'outdated, overpriced system'...

In theory it was very capable, but those capabilities came at the cost of the too much complexity, requiring very, very well trained operators who "knew the feel" of the system and no system was exactly the same. This bad experience with naval version lead to Yugoslavia rejecting very cheap Soviet offer of Osa in the 1987.

[Yama]

50 minutes ago, bojan said:

In theory it was very capable, but those capabilities came at the cost of the too much complexity, requiring very, very well trained operators who "knew the feel" of the system and no system was exactly the same. This bad experience with naval version lead to Yugoslavia rejecting very cheap Soviet offer of Osa in the 1987.

Oh, nice. Finns were expecting a cheap offer for Osa too in mid-80s (as usually had been the case with Soviet weapon systems) and were pretty shocked at the price tag for a system featuring 1960s tube electronics.

Though in fairness, most Western systems fared badly too. Rapier particularly was thought very unimpressive and also overpriced. Roland might have been good, but it was part German and thus out due to stupid Peace Treaty restrictions.

Fortuously, Crotale became available with very new VT1 missile and was both the cheapest AND the best, so in the end there wasn't even any kind of competition.

[bojan]

Just now, Yama said:

...Roland might have been good...

Slovenian experience with it was so bad that they have considered buying something in Russia instead (IIRC Tor) in about 2002., but that was ditched with joining NATO and it was decided to just retire Rolands.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Long video of combat action from AM side, dated Oct 8-10 

 

[Roman Alymov]

AZ video

 

[Roman Alymov]

 

[Gavin-Phillips]

I see the Russian peacekeeping force is making good use of their BTR-82A's then.  Are these a significant upgrade over the previous BTR-80A?

[Ssnake]

30mm Autocannon vs 14.5mm HMG?

Yes.

[bojan]

BTR-80A had 30mm also. IIRC 82 has slightly more armor and more powerful engine.

[AttilaA]

Second Karabakh War:

EXTRA missile

[Daan]

Video of an alleged strike by a Spike ER on an Armenian tank / SPH (?):

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Daan

[seahawk]

On 11/22/2020 at 12:01 AM, bojan said:

Slovenian experience with it was so bad that they have considered buying something in Russia instead (IIRC Tor) in about 2002., but that was ditched with joining NATO and it was decided to just retire Rolands.

To be honest they got retired German versions that had been barely modernized. The designed Roland 5 never went into production. If you look at how the system performed in the Iran-Iraq war, the Malvinas and even the Gulf War, it can be said that it was a good system for the 1980ies.

[bojan]

Possibly, but major complaint was that it was way too complicated to be troop AD and too short ranged to be territorial AD. OTOH, "too complicated" is relative and could have been reduced as a factor with a proper modernization.

Edit - first generations of operators included people that were SA-6 trained and they considered some aspects of Roland to be way too complicated for the intended role. Considering that SA-6 was pretty complex piece of equipment itself that is saying a lot.

Edited November 24, 2020 by bojan

[Gavin-Phillips]

On 11/23/2020 at 2:53 AM, bojan said:

BTR-80A had 30mm also. IIRC 82 has slightly more armor and more powerful engine.

Thank you Bojan.  I was unaware that the "original" BTR-82 also had the seemingly standard 14.5mm & 7.62mm turret, with the A version having the 2A72 & 7.62mm instead.  Seems curious to have both but I suppose there must be a reason in there somewhere.

[bojan]

IIRC 14.5mm version of the 82 is only for a secondary roles.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Roman Alymov

[RETAC21]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:18 PM, seahawk said:

To be honest they got retired German versions that had been barely modernized. The designed Roland 5 never went into production. If you look at how the system performed in the Iran-Iraq war, the Malvinas and even the Gulf War, it can be said that it was a good system for the 1980ies.

If we take the Falklands/Malvinas as an example, both Roland and Rapier were overrated. I suspect data from the other significant war it has been in (Iraq/Iran) is also suspect for both.

[seahawk]

Every SAM of that period was overrated.

[Roman Alymov]

 

 

[glenn239]

On 11/26/2020 at 10:58 AM, seahawk said:

Every SAM of that period was overrated.

SA-10 and SA-12 were pretty good.

[Pavel Novak]

There are some rumours that Armenia should cede Syunik province to Azerbaijan. Does anybody knows more?

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 11/26/2020 at 3:58 PM, seahawk said:

Every SAM of that period was overrated.

Oh I dont know. In absolute fairness, the Iranian Hawk proved to be the only weapon that could reliably shoot down Iranian F14's.....

[Colin]

9 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Oh I dont know. In absolute fairness, the Iranian Hawk proved to be the only weapon that could reliably shoot down Iranian F14's.....

LOL, your just cruel 😁

[Daan]

Phone video from early in the conflict when Azeri troops were spotted and engaged by Armenian mortar fire:

 

[bojan]

Told you that both sides used arty more-less well.