Armenia Azerbaijan Conflict

[bojan]

Sorry, I have connected it to a above video somehow.

[bojan]

14 minutes ago, Mistral said:

The times is saw a caption of one of those read unexploded rocket...

in this conflict we have also seen more than one instance of S-300 missile parts being attributed to a ballistic missiles by MoDs of the both sides.

[Mistral]

Supposedly an Azeri TOS-1 destroyed, prety energetic coflagration.

 

 

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Mistral said:

Supposedly an Azeri TOS-1 destroyed, prety energetic coflagration.

Nothing else is to be expected, unless the launcher fully expended its ammo load.

[AttilaA]

9 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Oryx speaks of "destroyed or damaged" and lumps them into one category, and "captured or abandoned" into the other. Accuse them of inflating their numbers all day, but maybe check their definitions first...  

It’s people who take sides as if it’s some football team they are cheering on. The usual crowd from Syrian war (you know who). They go as far as claiming the footage is recycled, fake etc without providing a single proof. 

As for Oryx, like said he works together with few other people. Do all of them miss «doubles»? Unlikely.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by AttilaA

[bojan]

Find one my claim from Syria that something was fake. I am questioning videogame methodology of hit=destroyed and no double hits happen ever.  Shits happens. Lostarmor has 20+ people crew who check sources, yet mistakes happen (as I have noted above). Get over it.

As for a propaganda, one spreading it here is you, since both sides MoD* claims are pretty much propaganda and I don't trust any of them w/o few more sources confirmation.

*Or do I need to post all BS Azeri MoD claims so you can finally understand that?

Edited October 25, 2020 by bojan

[AttilaA]

I was not talking about you lol. I was saying that the usual Assadist-Kremlin crowd from Syrian war are now cheering on Armenia. Not on this forum, overall.

You have to point out those then. 

How am I spreading propaganda here? Again, give some examples. You mean posting videos? I have posted only few, I’m not posting every newly released video here.
 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by AttilaA

[bojan]

1st part, they cheer for Armenia for a same reason every Jihadist fanboy is supporting Azeris (even through religion aspect is very much irrelevant in this war and Azeris are very, very far from a hard core believers). It is "Always with or always against Russia" mentality that robs both sides of the critical thinking. From my perspective, there is no really good guys here, but there is neither "very bad ones" like in Syria. Azeris have a legal claim toward land, Armenians have a legal claim toward not wanting to be ethnically cleansed. Both sides have ignored laws of warfare. Both sides have done atrocities in the '90s. So I look at this from a strictly technical aspect, just laughing when someone claims one side is "pure and white" and other is a "devil".

For a BS claim, watch for a "ballistic missile attack" on the pipeline, where CBUs are shown. Except bomblets are Israeli made, and not in the Armenian inventory. Then showing parts of the S-300 missiles as ballistic missile. Then geolocating Spike launch vs Armenian armor deep in the territory that was already "liberated" few days ago. Then attack on obvious fake SA-8s (pictures were already here), posted on the MoD briefing. There is also a thing of not publishing own loses, which look to be quite heavy, but that is far more understandable compared to negating obvious ones, like negating loss of T-90 tanks when we have seen pictures.

IDK why you don't get that in the war both sides will lie and post propaganda claims w/o much connection to reality. If you want to know truth you have to dig deeper than oryx, collonelcassad and other people who obviously take sides.

So far lostarmour is mostly bias free, hence best source for a confirmed loses.

Every time someone posts either Azeri or Armenian MoD claims w/o checking them with independent sources he is posting propaganda. It is OK to do so, but do not blame other people for the same thing just from a different side.

Edited October 25, 2020 by bojan

[AttilaA]

Oryx’s work is based on visual evidence, not MoD claims.

Azerbaijan will publish full list of losses after the end of war to general public, that was the policy from day one. As for equipment losses, Armenia is not publishing them either. And when it comes to human losses, Armenia announces only a part of them. I don’t know how that is better than Azerbaijan’s policy since they are vastly underreporting their losses. 
 

As for territorial gains, all serious sources base it on visual evidence, not official claims. It’s different from the map Armenian MoD shared to say the least.

Edited October 25, 2020 by AttilaA

[Adam Peter]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

My, someone woke up feeling cynical this morning.

Well, its not as if Turkey hasnt done it before is it.

BBC says it happens.

[bojan]

3 minutes ago, AttilaA said:

...As for equipment losses, Armenia is not publishing them either.

See, you have finally got my point. Official claims can not be trusted w/o independent verification.

[Yama]

13 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Oryx speaks of "destroyed or damaged" and lumps them into one category, and "captured or abandoned" into the other. Accuse them of inflating their numbers all day, but maybe check their definitions first...  

Their current count of 160 tanks includes all of 4 damaged tanks. Supposedly rest are total losses.

According to Wikipedia, Artsakh Army had 187 T-72's before the war. So we are to believe they have been almost all lost, or alternative Armenians have supplied them massively from their much smaller tank fleet...

[Yama]

4 hours ago, AttilaA said:

It’s people who take sides as if it’s some football team they are cheering on. The usual crowd from Syrian war (you know who). They go as far as claiming the footage is recycled, fake etc without providing a single proof.

 

And in Syria, 90% of the 'target destroyed' videos came from the side which lost the war...

[AttilaA]

Delete

Edited October 26, 2020 by AttilaA

[JasonJ]

10 hours ago, AttilaA said:

I was not talking about you lol. I was saying that the usual Assadist-Kremlin crowd from Syrian war are now cheering on Armenia. Not on this forum, overall.

You have to point out those then. 

How am I spreading propaganda here? Again, give some examples. You mean posting videos? I have posted only few, I’m not posting every newly released video here.
 

 

 

 

Way too premature for you to be ruled as "speading propaganda".

 

It'll get everyone scared of posting anything because of a risk of getting attacked by mob that's out on the hunt for propaganda witches.

[AttilaA]

9 hours ago, JasonJ said:

Way too premature for you to be ruled as "speading propaganda".

 

It'll get everyone scared of posting anything because of a risk of getting attacked by mob that's out on the hunt for propaganda witches.

Apparently posting few videos and saying that T-72 can’t realistically survive against a 10 kg tandem warhead munition when hit on turret in most cases is spreading propaganda. 
 

Or my post where I said that the Armenian MoD underplays Azerbaijani teritorial gains? I don’t know how is that spreading propaganda either. Azerbaijan MoD shares footage from captured areas, then those get geolocated by third party sources and that’s how we have maps. Armenian MoD started to counter that by publishing their own maps that cannot be verified. 

As for my comment regarding the Assadist crowd, it’s true. According to them everything is fake. Is it these people he refers to when he says «some people have pointed out»? And I asked if I could see those examples.

That’s all.

Edited October 26, 2020 by AttilaA

[bojan]

It appears that you two do not get it. - everything posted by either MoDs is a propaganda. Being propaganda does not mean it is fake, it only means it was selected to show what they want to be shown. Hence you can not rely on either one, or even both combined* to form a reliable picture.

*In 1999. NATO claimed 200+ armored vehicles destroyed with airstrikes. Yugoslav MoD claimed something like 60+ aircrafts shot down.

Both claims were utter BS. I have explained on other topics how you come to those claims. There does not have to be any malice or pre planned lie involved for it to spiral out of control into fantasy land.

 

I would be much more interesting in AtillaA's view of the situation in Azerbaijan, since that would be an unique perspective. Especially considering censorship going on there. Everyone can copy-paste videos from official site, few can provide real "what is a situation like" view.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by bojan

[JasonJ]

5 minutes ago, bojan said:

It appears that you two do not get it. - everything posted by either MoDs is a propaganda. Being propaganda does not mean it is fake, it only means it was selected to show what they want to be shown.

Well yeah. Technically all the Japanese, US, Chinese stuff I post can be "propaganda" too since technically it's all straight from the source and no middleman whatever to filter out whatever state side elements there may be. He's got like only 200 posts. I really don't get the drilling on this propaganda point.

[bojan]

8 minutes ago, JasonJ said:

... I really don't get the drilling on this propaganda point.

Because he has started it. I don't care if you post propaganda, but once you call others on that be prepared that you will be called on that.

It is that Stuart and Roman like attitude that "everything I like is a truth, everything I don't like is a lie".

 

Thing how truth gets bent -

There is a claim on hitting Repelant EW station while it was working with a Harop. Except we can clearly see that it is already burned out. IOW, it was already taken out, probably by the arty (which both sides are using relatively well), but that was not glorious enough for a propaganda, so instead of claiming "destroyed by arty" with a photo of it burned out they have decided to "double tap" it with a drone* and claim it was a drone strike. So "fake but accurate".

*Alternative is that they really believed that it was still operational. Which still does not make original claim truth.

 

PS. There is a world of difference between peacetime and wartime propaganda.

Edited October 26, 2020 by bojan

[JasonJ]

13 minutes ago, AttilaA said:

Apparently posting few videos and saying that T-72 can’t realistically survive against a 10 kg tandem warhead munition when hit on turret in most cases is spreading propaganda. 
 

Or my post where I said that the Armenian MoD underplays Azerbaijani teritorial gains? I don’t know how is that spreading propaganda either. Azerbaijan MoD shares footage from captured areas, then those get geolocated by third party sources and that’s how we have maps. Armenian MoD started to counter that by publishing their own maps that cannot be verified. 

As for my comment regarding the Assadist crowd, it’s true. According to them everything is fake. Is it these people he refers to when he says «some people have pointed out»? And I asked if I could see those examples.

That’s all.

Eh well whatever, try not to get hung up on it, Bojan makes lots of great points.

 

Try enjoying the site, hehehe

 

[rohala]

What is Azerbaijan's ultimate objective in this war? To completely eliminate Artsakh? To capture the areas surrounding Artsakh?

[RETAC21]

2 hours ago, rohala said:

What is Azerbaijan's ultimate objective in this war? To completely eliminate Artsakh? To capture the areas surrounding Artsakh?

Could also be to open a corridor to Nakhichevan, but definitely to finish off Karabakh

[Daan]

Lucky escape for a Euronews crew:

 

[Roman Alymov]

3 hours ago, rohala said:

What is Azerbaijan's ultimate objective in this war? To completely eliminate Artsakh? To capture the areas surrounding Artsakh?

As far as I remember, President Aliev (AZ) stated they will not stop until “all occupied territories liberated”, meaning total elimination of Karabakh. Re “capture the areas surrounding Artsakh” – we have to keep in mind Artsakh is historical name of the region goingback to centuries when Azerbaijan was not on the map, and Turk-speaking nomads were still somewhere in Central Asia. Azeris and Turks are relatively newcomers to this area, while Armenians, Persians, Georgians and some other little known groups (like Talysh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talysh_people ) are old population. Both modern Armenia and modern Azerbaijan are artificial states with external borders formed by advance of Rus Empire in XIX century against Persia and Ottoman Empire, and internal borders drawn by Stalin as administrative ones. As result, more Azeri live in Iran then in AZ, and most of historic Armenia is Turkey now.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Roman Alymov

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 10/26/2020 at 1:21 PM, bojan said:

Because he has started it. I don't care if you post propaganda, but once you call others on that be prepared that you will be called on that.

It is that Stuart and Roman like attitude that "everything I like is a truth, everything I don't like is a lie".

 

Thing how truth gets bent -

There is a claim on hitting Repelant EW station while it was working with a Harop. Except we can clearly see that it is already burned out. IOW, it was already taken out, probably by the arty (which both sides are using relatively well), but that was not glorious enough for a propaganda, so instead of claiming "destroyed by arty" with a photo of it burned out they have decided to "double tap" it with a drone* and claim it was a drone strike. So "fake but accurate".

*Alternative is that they really believed that it was still operational. Which still does not make original claim truth.

 

PS. There is a world of difference between peacetime and wartime propaganda.

Look Bojan, my attitude is, and always has been very simple. There are not multiple truths, there is only one reality, and If you apply logic and occams razor, you can usually work out what it is.

I'm perfectly happy to concede when you or Roman are right, and have done in many occasions. Neither you or Bojan have ever seen fit to return the compliment, even when, as with Ukraine or MH17 or Salisbury, I was subsequently proven entirely right. 

So kindly don't go round misrepresenting my position, or you are the one distorting facts.