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6 minutes ago, seahawk said:

This current deal is not a long term solution. The UK needs to become a global country and drop the connection to the EUSSR.

Good luck with that. The days of "Great" Britain are over. The world has changed, and going it alone for small countries is extremely difficult.

And, the belief of many USians that democratic socialism is the same as communism shows true ignorance of the political systems involved.

--
Leo

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40 minutes ago, Leo Niehorster said:

Good luck with that. The days of "Great" Britain are over. The world has changed, and going it alone for small countries is extremely difficult.

And, the belief of many USians that democratic socialism is the same as communism shows true ignorance of the political systems involved.

--
Leo

Not sure I agree. I think our best days are ahead of us personally, if we make the right decisions. Starting with kicking Bojo into thelong grass.

I think, and this is just a personal view, recent events have demonstrated just how unwieldy large countries or power blocks are. Too many vested interests, too many conflicting opinions to be appeased. Im no fan of Brexit, but it was a shock to me quite how long the EU dragged its feet over approving the vaccines. And apparently per capita, as far as vacinations, we are far ahead of the United States. Does that demonstrate the superiority of large nations? Hardly, particularly bearing in mind the utter mess China made of locking down the pandemic before it got out the country. They were in denial about it being a problem for days.

Is Brexit a mistake? Probably. Is it an economic opportunity? Probably. Its too easy to applaud the opportunities the country now has, and its too easy to write the country off. We have faced far, far worse problems, and within living memory. We need to learn the lessons of poor governance, and happily, British politicians no longer have the luxury of the EU to blame when they fuck up.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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8 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

"There are two kinds of European nations. There are small nations and there are countries that have not yet realized they are small nations."

It would be better to say there are two kinds of European nations, those that are small, and those that think small. :)

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1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

it was a shock to me quite how long the EU dragged its feet over approving the vaccines.

WUT?

Three weeks difference between Britain's emergency approval with considerably reduced safety vs. an absolutely regular European process, just accelerated massively by reducing administrative friction. If you want to make a comparison, compare Britain's approval process to Russia's Sputnik, and then tell me again who was "dragging his feet".

Sorry Stu, you're way, way off base here.

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Yes, but everyone else in Europe decided to show European solidarity rather than use the Emergency approval. Which they could have done, but for political reasons they chose politics over expediency.

Yes, Brexit did not give us any structural capablity to launch the emergency approval. Politically it cleared the deck enabling us to do so.If you are chosing political alignment over the health of your own citizens, something is going very badly wrong. One cannot make the argument the European approach was safer, now Europe is in the grip of a variant of the disease that is moving blisteringly fast. Even our approval process probably was not fast enough.

Yes, but the difference is, everyone believes the Pfizer drug works. Nobody really believes Sputnik is worth a punt do they?

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Again, WUT???

On the one hand we have a fully approved and certified vaccine that passed all the tests with only taking three weeks more than what we have on the other hand, the British approach that skipped and shortened a fair number of clinical trials to get approval. In both cases, we have the development and approval of new vaccines in under 10 months start to finish when the development of vaccines usually takes a decade, and the approval process of a ready-to-market drug takes two years minimum, often five.

This is a massive, astounding, unprecendented success.

 

Stu, stop digging yourself a deeper hole. You're making a total fool of yourself.

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1 hour ago, Leo Niehorster said:

Good luck with that. The days of "Great" Britain are over. The world has changed, and going it alone for small countries is extremely difficult.

And, the belief of many USians that democratic socialism is the same as communism shows true ignorance of the political systems involved.

--
Leo

Reference bold and underlined part. Words mean things, just at times differently in place A vs place B. To U.S. Conservatives, the "(flavor of) Socialism and Communism are just slightly different shades of red.

Both mean increased lust for secular power, control, and money. In the U.S. this is called Liberalism and it has infected the Democratic Party and now the U.S. more horribly than it ever has. 

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1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Again, WUT???

On the one hand we have a fully approved and certified vaccine that passed all the tests with only taking three weeks more than what we have on the other hand, the British approach that skipped and shortened a fair number of clinical trials to get approval. In both cases, we have the development and approval of new vaccines in under 10 months start to finish when the development of vaccines usually takes a decade, and the approval process of a ready-to-market drug takes two years minimum, often five.

This is a massive, astounding, unprecendented success.

 

Stu, stop digging yourself a deeper hole. You're making a total fool of yourself.

Nils, there has been a lot of occasions when you have crossed a line, and ive declined to call you a fool. Ive never called anyone on this site a fool for that matter. If you dont like my point of view,  then dont like it. Im not beating you over the head with it, and I deserve to have my opinion respected even if you dont agree with it.

Lets unpack it. You cannot imply the European system is working as advertised, when it is unable to do something as simple as approving a vaccine, making it among the slowest in the world. My own country is a mess, its run by ideologically befuddled idiots, and somehow it got ahead of the rest of the world. The narrative that big systems are good ones was proven wrong at BAC and British Leyland as long ago as the 1970's.

We are a critical juncture for the West as an economic and political entity, we get ahead of the pack and do something right for once in a millenium, and what do we get from the EU? Snotty comments about how we cut corners. Three weeks when just a few days could be critical. I suggest respectfully, stop defending this as an organisation that is on top of its game.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-eu/eu-criticises-hasty-uk-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-idUKKBN28C12X

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57 minutes ago, Rick said:

Reference bold and underlined part. Words mean things, just at times differently in place A vs place B. To U.S. Conservatives, the "(flavor of) Socialism and Communism are just slightly different shades of red.

Both mean increased lust for secular power, control, and money. In the U.S. this is called Liberalism and it has infected the Democratic Party and now the U.S. more horribly than it ever has. 

Here in Spain, our local Socialists feel more close to Communist dictators such as Castro, or Maduro than to the local Conservative party, for instance.

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2 hours ago, sunday said:

Here in Spain, our local Socialists feel more close to Communist dictators such as Castro, or Maduro than to the local Conservative party, for instance.

No, they are actually closer to Stalin and Kim Jong Un than small pot dictators like the Castros or Maduro, it's just that they haven't had the time to set up the Stasi yet, but we are well on the way to that thanks to COVID.

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Apropos of Spain - last-minute deals everywhere.

Quote

Brexit: Gibraltar gets UK-Spain deal to keep open border

Published 48 seconds ago

Spain has reached a deal with the UK to maintain free movement to and from Gibraltar once the UK formally leaves the EU on Friday.

To avoid a hard border, they have agreed that Gibraltar will join the EU's Schengen zone and follow other EU rules, while remaining part of the UK.

The deal was announced by Spanish Foreign Minister Arancha González Laya, just hours before the UK exits the EU.

The Rock voted Remain in 2016 and about 15,000 Spanish workers go there daily.

"With this [agreement], the fence is removed, Schengen is applied to Gibraltar... it allows for the lifting of controls between Gibraltar and Spain," said Ms González Laya.

The deal, not yet formalised by a treaty, does not address the thorny issue of sovereignty. Spain has long disputed British sovereignty over the Rock, which is home to about 34,000 people. The Remain vote there was an overwhelming 96% in the 2016 EU referendum.

Most EU states are in the passport-free Schengen zone, but the UK has never been in it.

Once Gibraltar joins it, EU citizens arriving from Spain or another Schengen country will avoid passport checks, while arrivals from the UK will have to go through passport control, as is already the case.

UK support 'steadfast'

The Gibraltar deal will mean the EU sending Frontex border guards to facilitate free movement to and from Gibraltar, during a transitional period, pending a treaty.

UK Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab called Thursday's deal a "political framework" to form the basis of a separate treaty with the EU regarding Gibraltar.

He said "all sides are committed to mitigating the effects of the end of the [Brexit] Transition Period on Gibraltar, and in particular ensure border fluidity, which is clearly in the best interests of the people living on both sides.

"We remain steadfast in our support for Gibraltar and its sovereignty."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55497084

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VICTORY AT LAST!! :D

Gibraltar will join the EU's Schengen zone and follow other EU rules, while remaining part of the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55497084

Banshee beat me to it, I wonder what happens if the EU decides to close the border, like due to COVID... and, of course, no mention of the waters.

Edited by RETAC21
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21 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

No, they are actually closer to Stalin and Kim Jong Un than small pot dictators like the Castros or Maduro, it's just that they haven't had the time to set up the Stasi yet, but we are well on the way to that thanks to COVID.

Indeed, see that disgraceful, former Socialist PM of Spain, Rodríguez Zapatero, working currently for Maduro, or the historical links between the Venezuelan dictatorship, and associated South American regimes with the far-left Podemos party. However, there have been few relations with the North Korean regime.

Or was that another bout of TDS-infused sarcasm?

Edited by sunday
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1 hour ago, sunday said:

Indeed, see that disgraceful, former Socialist PM of Spain, Rodríguez Zapatero, working currently for Maduro, or the historical links between the Venezuelan dictatorship, and associated South American regimes with the far-left Podemos party. However, there have been few relations with the North Korean regime.

Or was that another bout of TDS-infused sarcasm?

:D

No, far from it, if left unchallenged, our local Duce/Fúhrer/Conducator will gladly embrace Stalinism, not out of principle, but out of ambition and convenience. In contrast to Cuba and Venezuela (where there's some dissent after all), the Socialcommie guvmint wants to suppress all opinion that is not laudatory to excess and they cannot yet set up the camps, but are more than willing to condemn people to civil death, like for examplo, the veep neighbour or the lady that dared to rise the rent to someone in Barcelona some time ago.

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5 hours ago, sunday said:

Here in Spain, our local Socialists feel more close to Communist dictators such as Castro, or Maduro than to the local Conservative party, for instance.

over here a leading conservative (a catholic) claimed he has got more in common with a conservative muslim than with liberal estonian

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17 minutes ago, bd1 said:

over here a leading conservative (a catholic) claimed he has got more in common with a conservative muslim than with liberal estonian

Is that an one-off declaration, or is there a record going back to the 1930s?

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8 hours ago, Leo Niehorster said:

Good luck with that. The days of "Great" Britain are over. The world has changed, and going it alone for small countries is extremely difficult.

And, the belief of many USians that democratic socialism is the same as communism shows true ignorance of the political systems involved.

--
Leo

The UK has links that could be re-enforced to make a semblance of that larger and stronger nation setup, without losing it's sovereignty. 

The whole Anglo-sphere concept all the way up to an eventual confederation would work swimmingly. We would however need to work on that strong civil society thing and get rid of the multiculturalism is our strength nonsense. 

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1 hour ago, bd1 said:

over here a leading conservative (a catholic) claimed he has got more in common with a conservative muslim than with liberal estonian

Hmmm....maybe..for a while....until the Muslims think they're stronger....

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8 hours ago, Ssnake said:

WUT?

Three weeks difference between Britain's emergency approval with considerably reduced safety vs. an absolutely regular European process,

What did the 3 weeks add to safety? How did it add to safety? Is it the same vaccine? What happened in that 3 weeks timeframe?  They certainly didn't suss out any long term effects of a new concept in vaccines, ie mRNA and all of it's implications inside of 3 weeks. 
 

Edited by rmgill
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6 hours ago, sunday said:

Here in Spain, our local Socialists feel more close to Communist dictators such as Castro, or Maduro than to the local Conservative party, for instance.

Same around here. I overheard a waitron at my local watering hole opining a bout how Kelly Loeffler is a fascist. To our left, if you don't make the nice noises about social welfare things that you give to people with tax payer money, you're a fascist. 

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10 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Again, WUT???

On the one hand we have a fully approved and certified vaccine that passed all the tests with only taking three weeks more than what we have on the other hand, the British approach that skipped and shortened a fair number of clinical trials to get approval. In both cases, we have the development and approval of new vaccines in under 10 months start to finish when the development of vaccines usually takes a decade, and the approval process of a ready-to-market drug takes two years minimum, often five.

This is a massive, astounding, unprecendented success.

 

Stu, stop digging yourself a deeper hole. You're making a total fool of yourself.

The British approach didn't do any of those things.  The clinical trials had wrapped and those on-going had their draft reports and analyses submitted to the CDC and ECDC.  Nothing happened until the milestones had been accomplished.  What was the main difference is that the ECDC and FDA had the data in hand for a longer period and they shared their internal analysis with each other.  The British approach was to approve on contingency to get the ball rolling with the ability to pull back if CDC or ECDC found something that they didn't.  The main risk was to the PHE having to redo some work but that would have just cost the UK government some additional resources and money.  There wouldn't have been an impact on public health in comparison.

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